Finally Cured From Post Finasteride Syndrome

[sladerunner69]

They are in an inverse relationship essentially. The peripheral DHT exerts negative feedback on neurosteroid synthesis in the brain. An additional problem is the already low estradiol in PFS CNS, which then gets further crushed by high DHT.

Now, normally this shouldn't be a problem in a healthy body but I believe that because the AR in our brains is still overexpressed, the overall signal of peripheral androgenic activity is amplified (brain senses more androgenic activity than there is) and then the 5-AR in the CNS gets downregulated too much by normal levels of peripheral androgens.

That's why when I take for example creatine or eat sorghum, I will dump water, my midsection will flatten, I'll feel lighter and less bloated and look more androgenic, but my mental function will take a nose dive and my sleep becomes worse. This may be a negative effect on 5-AR but it also happens with antiestrogens, so I believe the low E2 is even further offset by peripheral androgens.

Alternatively I can take something like alpha-ketoglutarate which has me feeling estrogenic (itchy nipples, gut bloat and water retention), but improves my brain fog, sleep and overall mood.

What we're really trying to do is to achieve normal tissue activity of 5-AR, normal expression of androgen receptors in the brain which don't overreact to those levels, and all neurosteroids and sex hormones in the cerebrospinal fluid restored to normal levels. Easier said than done.

I don't understand how estrogen could be low in the CNS. What do you mean by that exactly? And you high DHT crushes it - yet DHT is usually very low in PFS guys (mine certainly was - along with testosterone).

Aside from that yes, this is my intuition, that the peripheral levels and CNS levels are inversely correlated. When I take androsterone I become both better and worse. So what techniques have you found to be the most helpful? Some of the early cures I heard of involved taking 5-ar inhibitors such as licorice root and letting the body's 5-ar build back

 

[sladerunner69]

It was always strange to me that people warn about high estrogen with Finasteride, aside from neurosteroids, I'm sure most of my cognitive issues came from low estrogen. Which if Fin is acting like Progesterone, would make sense considering it antagonizes both DHT and estrogen.

I relate to what you're describing here, I'm sensitive to anything antagonizes estrogen, whether its DHT or otherwise. I think I was like this before fin, though I notice it's effects on memory more than I did before finasteride.

I think a lot of the memory issues I had with fin were very low estrogen, anything that tanks estrogen gives me the same cognitive/memory problems.

Have you had blood tests? Ive had terrible cognitive problems even with blood tests indicating almsot non existant DHT and very low T. When I drink a few beers (contains estrogen) my cognition gets worse. Personally, I think it's msotly down to low 5-ar in the nervous system, but also gut/liver damage contributing to it.

 

[Charger]

Have you had blood tests? Ive had terrible cognitive problems even with blood tests indicating almsot non existant DHT and very low T. When I drink a few beers (contains estrogen) my cognition gets worse. Personally, I think it's msotly down to low 5-ar in the nervous system, but also gut/liver damage contributing to it.

After fin, my estradiol went from 33pg/mL to 20pg/mL. These tests were done at different parts of the day, so that could make a difference, either way I wouldn't expect that big of a drop for something that supposedly increases estrogen. This was after my DHT returned to baseline levels.

 

[gord]

Any advice please guys..
I began a ultrahard pro hormone cycle 3 weeks ago, a couple of days ago i started to get tender/itchy nipples thats still uncomfortable even today. I’ve stopped the cycle.
These are the same sides i first noticed when taking fin to be honest. Obviously estrogen issues.
When i last had my bloods in october they showed low range dht & high range E so it was probably unwise to use something that may increase the E further.
Does anyone have advice on what to use as a form of PCT supplement to reduces sides and avoid gyno. Or shouldn't i worry and just let it settle ?

 

[Mister]

Any advice please guys..
I began a ultrahard pro hormone cycle 3 weeks ago, a couple of days ago i started to get tender/itchy nipples thats still uncomfortable even today. I’ve stopped the cycle.
These are the same sides i first noticed when taking fin to be honest. Obviously estrogen issues.
When i last had my bloods in october they showed low range dht & high range E so it was probably unwise to use something that may increase the E further.
Does anyone have advice on what to use as a form of PCT supplement to reduces sides and avoid gyno. Or shouldn't i worry and just let it settle ?

Yup, you can use nolvadex if you are prone to gyno. Or you can continue your ultrahard cycle and use an AI like arimidex,... but it's not easy to dose, even a small amount can really crash your estrogen levels. Talk to your endo/urologist.

 

[gord]

Yup, you can use nolvadex if you are prone to gyno. Or you can continue your ultrahard cycle and use an AI like arimidex,... but it's not easy to dose, even a small amount can really crash your estrogen levels. Talk to your endo/

Thanks for the advice

 

[MyUsernameHere]

I don't understand how estrogen could be low in the CNS. What do you mean by that exactly? And you high DHT crushes it - yet DHT is usually very low in PFS guys (mine certainly was - along with testosterone).

Aside from that yes, this is my intuition, that the peripheral levels and CNS levels are inversely correlated. When I take androsterone I become both better and worse. So what techniques have you found to be the most helpful? Some of the early cures I heard of involved taking 5-ar inhibitors such as licorice root and letting the body's 5-ar build back

Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients - PubMed

Recent reports show that, in patients treated with finasteride for male pattern hair loss, persistent side effects including sexual side effects, depression, anxiety and cognitive complaints may occur. We here explored the psychiatric and andrological features of patients affected by...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Indeed, decreased levels of pregnenolone, progesterone and its metabolite (i.e., dihydroprogesterone), dihydrotestosterone and 17beta-estradiol and increased levels of dehydroepiandrosterone, testosterone and 5alpha-androstane-3alpha,17beta-diol were observed in CSF of PFS patients.

At least, that is the situation in the CNS. My estradiol in serum is high and I have high estrogen symptoms everywhere in the periphery.
I meant that attempts to increase DHT generally result in negative cognitive changes, though perhaps this is not so much due to estrogen coming down but rather the negative feedback on 5AR1 further reducing neurosteroids.

Differential regulation of steroid 5alpha-reductase isozymes expression by androgens in the adult rat brain - PubMed

The enzyme 5alpha-reductase (5alpha-R) is present in many mammalian tissues, including the brain. The physiological importance of 5alpha-R in the brain derives from its capability to convert testosterone (T) to a more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and to convert progesterone and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The gene expression of 5alpha-R type 2 is under the positive control of T and DHT. The gene that codes for 5alpha-R type 1 is not constitutive, because its expression is negatively regulated by T and DHT."

 

[Charger]

The reduction of 17beta-estradiol is interesting. Probably explains why some people recovered from licorice root, which is an agonst of the ERb receptor.

-edit-

Mixed up 17beta-estradiol with estrogen receptor beta, but it's interesting that it reduces estradiol, I hadn't taken note of that when looking at that study previously.

I'm also curious whether the majority of those with PFS have increased or low cortisol. I'm interested in what's largely responsible for the blunted emotions that people tend to get from it. I would imagine low cortisol + low estrogen alone would result in blunted emotions.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

The reduction of 17beta-estradiol is interesting. Probably explains why some people recovered from licorice root, which is an agonst of the ERb receptor.

-edit-

Mixed up 17beta-estradiol with estrogen receptor beta, but it's interesting that it reduces estradiol, I hadn't taken note of that when looking at that study previously.

Estrogenic things generally help me cognitively. Better sleep, less brain fog, especially more consistent throughout the day - my head used to get really fvvvcked up in the afternoon.

Buuut... my gut bloating and water retention becomes ridiculous. Like right now, feels like a bunch of rocks in my stomach and my nipples are puffy and itchy. That's just from α-ketoglutarate... this molecule isn't even a hormone, I'm not sure why it increases estrogen but it does.

I don't know how to force 5-AR to increase peripherally. HCG wasn't doing that for me in the 2 months that I took it, but I will try it again soon.

Creatine helps a bit (which is why I'm positive that it does actually increase DHT, despite people doubting it), but it worsens my mental state, no surprise.

 

[Charger]

Creatine is also dopaminergic as well which can provide mental benefits.

T3 is something to consider if you haven't yet tried it.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Creatine is also dopaminergic as well which can provide mental benefits.

T3 is something to consider if you haven't yet tried it.

I have to be careful with T3 because when I took it alongside Finasteride, it worsened my gyno big time. Something about thyroid hormone increasing sex hormones but if 5-AR is malfunctional most of it seems to end up as E2.

 

[Charger]

I have to be careful with T3 because when I took it alongside Finasteride, it worsened my gyno big time. Something about thyroid hormone increasing sex hormones but if 5-AR is malfunctional most of it seems to end up as E2.

If you took it while your 5AR was being actively inhibited, that's one thing. But it should basically do what HCG does without the extra aromatization that tends to come with HCG. Increases androgens, lowers prolactin, more steroidogenesis, etc.

Since I've started using it, I have oily skin again after having super dry skin for so long, hair miniaturization looks like it might actually be speeding up, high libido. Nothing estrogenic I've seen so far and I used fin as well.

 

[wildworld1992]

Taurine (5mg) with coffee

Did U mean 5 g？

 

[sladerunner69]

The reduction of 17beta-estradiol is interesting. Probably explains why some people recovered from licorice root, which is an agonst of the ERb receptor.

-edit-

Mixed up 17beta-estradiol with estrogen receptor beta, but it's interesting that it reduces estradiol, I hadn't taken note of that when looking at that study previously.

I'm also curious whether the majority of those with PFS have increased or low cortisol. I'm interested in what's largely responsible for the blunted emotions that people tend to get from it. I would imagine low cortisol + low estrogen alone would result in blunted emotions.

My blood tests have always comeback as slightly high cortisol, though I have ehard that blood tests are not a reliable measure of cortisol.

I have to be careful with T3 because when I took it alongside Finasteride, it worsened my gyno big time. Something about thyroid hormone increasing sex hormones but if 5-AR is malfunctional most of it seems to end up as E2.

That's very strange because t3 is supposed to be anti-estrogen, and I along with others tend to get too low estrogen from taking thyroid hormone or thyroid mimetics.

Neuroactive steroid levels and psychiatric and andrological features in post-finasteride patients - PubMed

Recent reports show that, in patients treated with finasteride for male pattern hair loss, persistent side effects including sexual side effects, depression, anxiety and cognitive complaints may occur. We here explored the psychiatric and andrological features of patients affected by...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Indeed, decreased levels of pregnenolone, progesterone and its metabolite (i.e., dihydroprogesterone), dihydrotestosterone and 17beta-estradiol and increased levels of dehydroepiandrosterone, testosterone and 5alpha-androstane-3alpha,17beta-diol were observed in CSF of PFS patients.

At least, that is the situation in the CNS. My estradiol in serum is high and I have high estrogen symptoms everywhere in the periphery.
I meant that attempts to increase DHT generally result in negative cognitive changes, though perhaps this is not so much due to estrogen coming down but rather the negative feedback on 5AR1 further reducing neurosteroids.

Differential regulation of steroid 5alpha-reductase isozymes expression by androgens in the adult rat brain - PubMed

The enzyme 5alpha-reductase (5alpha-R) is present in many mammalian tissues, including the brain. The physiological importance of 5alpha-R in the brain derives from its capability to convert testosterone (T) to a more potent androgen, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and to convert progesterone and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The gene expression of 5alpha-R type 2 is under the positive control of T and DHT. The gene that codes for 5alpha-R type 1 is not constitutive, because its expression is negatively regulated by T and DHT."

What is understood about the differences between types I & II 5-ar enzymes? I also know there is a type III. Is one type moreso expressed in the CNS?

 

[sladerunner69]

As already mentioned, worst medication ever.
Even at a very low dose, it gave me liver issues, anxiety, anger management issues, emotional roller coaster.
Clomid is probably almost as bad as finasteride.

Clomid is just an aromatase inhibitor. Do you think all of those issues were related to low estrogen or something else? What kind of liver issues?

 

[sladerunner69]

Any advice please guys..
I began a ultrahard pro hormone cycle 3 weeks ago, a couple of days ago i started to get tender/itchy nipples thats still uncomfortable even today. I’ve stopped the cycle.
These are the same sides i first noticed when taking fin to be honest. Obviously estrogen issues.
When i last had my bloods in october they showed low range dht & high range E so it was probably unwise to use something that may increase the E further.
Does anyone have advice on what to use as a form of PCT supplement to reduces sides and avoid gyno. Or shouldn't i worry and just let it settle ?

I would not use any anti-aromatase medications, but stick with things like vitamin e, k, d and tribulus to help keep your estrogen at bay while pushing your body's own production back up.

 

[sladerunner69]

Creatine is also dopaminergic as well which can provide mental benefits.

T3 is something to consider if you haven't yet tried it.

Creatine is great, it boosts DHT by about 33% even after long term use in one study. I definitely feel a difference with creatine, but as the other guy pointed out increasing DHT may be a double edged sword for us.

 

[TheBeard]

Clomid is just an aromatase inhibitor.

No it's not.

It competes with e2 in the brain which can cause low e2 mood symptoms.

 

[TheBeard]

Creatine is great, it boosts DHT by about 33% even after long term use in one study. I definitely feel a difference with creatine, but as the other guy pointed out increasing DHT may be a double edged sword for us.

The feeling you get from creatine is probably from the creatine benefits themselves than from that very mild DHT boost.

When I multiply my DHT by x10 I can only feel a subtle change, so a boost of 33% wouldn't really be felt.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

The feeling you get from creatine is probably from the creatine benefits themselves than from that very mild DHT boost.

When I multiply my DHT by x10 I can only feel a subtle change, so a boost of 33% wouldn't really be felt.

Eh, my nipple sensitivity stops when I regularly take creatine, so whatever amount of DHT it increases is clearly enough to balance out the E2 in that regard. However I don't really want to be on creatine long term, so ideally I should be making that much more DHT myself...