Finally Cured From Post Finasteride Syndrome

[jinstewart]

@jinstewart

Thanks for the write up of former regimens. I think we should not exclude the combination of hCG and some other form of high testosteron / DHT analogue until we see people reporting evident benefits from hCG alone.

To Jinstewart, Sladerunner and JoeKool: I'm very interested in whether you are also experiencing more "desire" and motivation to go out and do stuff? Post finasteride syndrome sufferers seem to have an impaired functioning of "desire" and motivation in general, of which libido is only part. This is also the case in my situation, and something I'm most worried about. No desire to see friends or do hobbies anymore. I still go out and do stuff but mainly because of rational thinking and knowing it's good to continue, and then when I actually do meet up with friends or do certain activities I can still experience some form of joy (still lower though, but the joy is there a little). The functioning of "desire/motivation" system to do stuff seems to be the culprit.

One other observation: There seem to be two camps of post finasteride sufferers. Either the high anxiety/fear and worrying type, or the low anxiety/fear and emotional flatness type. I'm of the latter type. Has anyone made any observations in addition to this? Like are the anxiety type of sufferers more often long term finasteride users who "crash"? I'm a short term user (20 days) and never really crashed, but mental problems seem to have come gradually. Libido and erections problems did start right after 20 1mg pills and maybe worsened a little over time.

I'd say I have more motivation yes. Working on a car on and off as a hobby. I look forward to doing it. Motivation definitely not back yet. Don't go to the gym anymore and feel rather "flat" vs pre-fin. This has however improved. I think I'm also getting little ups and downs with it on the HCG. Tiny bit of a downer today as it goes.

Yes also crashed after 8 pills taken over a month back in late 2018. Would certainly say I'm the emotionally flat sort.

 

[jinstewart]

Anyone uses Ovidac brand HCG?

Think I did previously yes. Routinely test each batch of HCG anyways and was fine for me.

 

[Mister]

Btw everyone on HCG also has to know that HCG suppresses your HPT axis. Could be that using a classical serm could help too after your HCG cycle if HCG wasn't enough...

 

[jinstewart]

Btw everyone on HCG also has to know that HCG suppresses your HPT axis. Could be that using a classical serm could help too after your HCG cycle if HCG wasn't enough...

Cheers for this. Yes oddly enough plan to "check out" of the HCG cycle with a PCT. Keen to run clomid either for it or in it though, which has mixed opinions. I felt an improvement on clomid about a year back post test cycle, so I think it'll be a part of mine unless I'm truly dissuaded.

 

[Mister]

Cheers for this. Yes oddly enough plan to "check out" of the HCG cycle with a PCT. Keen to run clomid either for it or in it though, which has mixed opinions. I felt an improvement on clomid about a year back post test cycle, so I think it'll be a part of mine unless I'm truly dissuaded.

One thing to add is that it's best not to use HCG and clomid at the same time.

A comment from Derek (MPMD)

Testosterone and HCG are both suppressive of HPTA, so running them concurrently with Clomid makes zero sense, you’re giving your body two opposing signals. The correct way to PCT would be to wait for suppressive hormones to clear, if you run HCG, you run it then, and then after your HCG blast you start the SERMs after that, not concurrently. HCG is suppressive too.

 

[Charger]

HCG can be run the first two weeks of PCT or PCT can be started four days after the last pin of HCG. It doesn't matter, the point is to drop HCG so the SERM can do it's job.

And I've said it multiple times in the thread already, but, if you've had a bad experience on nolva/clomid, I'd recommend giving Toremifene a shot.

Are you using t4 as well? Supplementing thyroid has helped significantly in the past but it was never enough for me on its own.

Just T3, I might mess around with T4+T3 eventually to see if it does anything notable for me.

Have you tried oral/tablet form of T3 or just haidut's topical? I didn't notice much until I took the oral form, which is what I would recommend.

 

[FinVictim]

Is there any reason not to take HGH? I have heard it can speed up epigenetic process and heal the cells. I also wonder if my issue is about low GH. So taking it would say something.

I'd advice against mixing hormones like these in general, especially because there's still so little knowledge of all the intricate biochemical pathways they affect. Even for a single drug.

It'll take a couple months before you'll notice the effects of raised androgens, after taking hCG. If you'll even notice it at all.

 

[Aries]

One thing to add is that it's best not to use HCG and clomid at the same time.

Taeian disagrees.

How To Fully Prevent Shut Down On Cycle And Stay Natural! - TAEIAN

Individuals considering using anabolic steroids (AAS) often fear trying them due to concerns of shutting down their natural hormone production and never recovering. This worry alone is enough to detract a prospective user from following through with a steroid cycle, but the desire to use...

www.taeian.com

Nolva stops gyno on cycle, why doesn't this antagonism apply in its other binding sites? There is also the HPTA suppression by androgens but the paper Taeian refers to shows that clomid prevents suppression even when exogenous T and DHT are administered over the normal range.

It is just one small study but makes you wonder how Clomid could stop DHT/halo induced suppression if its action is limited to estrogen antagonism. Seems like it would also act as an androgen receptor antagonist in some sites and maybe that is part of the reason men who use it feel little subjective benefit despite it increasing serum T concentrations significantly.

So theoretically clomid could be used on cycle to keep the whole HPTA from being suppressed. I can't say for sure if HCG would influence GnRH release by different means than AAS or estrogen. Somebody could run them concurrently and test LH and FSH to see if it works.

 

[FinVictim]

I'd say I have more motivation yes. Working on a car on and off as a hobby. I look forward to doing it. Motivation definitely not back yet. Don't go to the gym anymore and feel rather "flat" vs pre-fin. This has however improved. I think I'm also getting little ups and downs with it on the HCG. Tiny bit of a downer today as it goes.

Yes also crashed after 8 pills taken over a month back in late 2018. Would certainly say I'm the emotionally flat sort.

Seems like we're quite similar cases. I took only 20 pills of 1mg.

Definitely good to hear your desire/motivation is getting a little better.

One thing to add is that it's best not to use HCG and clomid at the same time.

A comment from Derek (MPMD)

Testosterone and HCG are both suppressive of HPTA, so running them concurrently with Clomid makes zero sense, you’re giving your body two opposing signals. The correct way to PCT would be to wait for suppressive hormones to clear, if you run HCG, you run it then, and then after your HCG blast you start the SERMs after that, not concurrently. HCG is suppressive too.

Not judging you, but this is utter BS. There's no scientific support for this theory by this broscience dude whatsoever. I think we should stay far away from MPMDs claims since there is waaay too much commercial incentive going on on his website. Mixed through all his non backed up theories.
Guys like him are actually extremely dangerous to a very vulnerable group of people who act out of total despair, either because of general insecurities or because some drug already messed them up. His theories on finasteride are way out of wack.

This video is actually a lot more educative about concomitant use of hCG and clomid:


Excuse my English if it comes off odd. Not a native speaker.

 

[wildworld1992]

Anyone thinks 100iu hcg everyday would be a better idea?

 

[Mister]

Not judging you, but this is utter BS. There's no scientific support for this theory by this broscience dude whatsoever. I think we should stay far away from MPMDs claims since there is waaay too much commercial incentive going on on his website. Mixed through all his non backed up theories.
Guys like him are actually extremely dangerous to a very vulnerable group of people who act out of total despair, either because of general insecurities or because some drug already messed them up. His theories on finasteride are way out of wack.

This video is actually a lot more educative about concomitant use of hCG and clomid:


Excuse my English if it comes off odd. Not a native speaker.

How is it "utter BS"? What he says is completely right. Testosterone and HCG are suppressive of your HPTA. I'm also not a fan of these youtube guys but atleast he acknowledges and helps people with PFS.

Btw, the video you posted is the one I posted way back at the start of this thread. Yeah it's a very good video that explains everything. But the comment I quoted from Derek is absolutely correct.

Taeian disagrees.

How To Fully Prevent Shut Down On Cycle And Stay Natural! - TAEIAN

Individuals considering using anabolic steroids (AAS) often fear trying them due to concerns of shutting down their natural hormone production and never recovering. This worry alone is enough to detract a prospective user from following through with a steroid cycle, but the desire to use...

www.taeian.com

Nolva stops gyno on cycle, why doesn't this antagonism apply in its other binding sites? There is also the HPTA suppression by androgens but the paper Taeian refers to shows that clomid prevents suppression even when exogenous T and DHT are administered over the normal range.

It is just one small study but makes you wonder how Clomid could stop DHT/halo induced suppression if its action is limited to estrogen antagonism. Seems like it would also act as an androgen receptor antagonist in some sites and maybe that is part of the reason men who use it feel little subjective benefit despite it increasing serum T concentrations significantly.

So theoretically clomid could be used on cycle to keep the whole HPTA from being suppressed. I can't say for sure if HCG would influence GnRH release by different means than AAS or estrogen. Somebody could run them concurrently and test LH and FSH to see if it works.

That's very interesting. This is a question we should ask some endos.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Finally managed to source some legit BAC water. Looking forward to hop back on when I get it. Not sure what I'll use as PCT this time, maybe exemestane.

 

[Cooper]

I really lost the track of people who are trying HCG here.

But there are at least 5 more people on the first pages who said they started HCG.

Can you guys please make an update now?

I really need to hear more experiences. Im doing fine but nothing has improved yet.

 

[FinVictim]

How is it "utter BS"? What he says is completely right. Testosterone and HCG are suppressive of your HPTA. I'm also not a fan of these youtube guys but atleast he acknowledges and helps people with PFS.

Btw, the video you posted is the one I posted way back at the start of this thread. Yeah it's a very good video that explains everything. But the comment I quoted from Derek is absolutely correct.


That's very interesting. This is a question we should ask some endos.

The conclusion of his reasoning is 'it's bad to give the body opposing signals'. What I'm trying to say is there's no evidence this is bad. You're copying his conclusion by advising against using hCG and clomid together. You are not giving 'the body' opposing signals. There is no such thing as 'the body' in this case. It's more complex. hCG and clomid have their effects on different parts of the HPTA axis. Which is actually the exact thing you're trying to achieve when using the two substances together.

 

[TheBeard]

Is there any reason not to take HGH? I have heard it can speed up epigenetic process and heal the cells. I also wonder if my issue is about low GH. So taking it would say something.

HGH does wonders to my libido

 

[TheBeard]

Finally managed to source some legit BAC water. Looking forward to hop back on when I get it. Not sure what I'll use as PCT this time, maybe exemestane.

Please don't.

You'll feel amazing the first two days on Exemestane, and like death after for a few weeks until your e2 creeps back up.

 

[sladerunner69]

I'm not on anything at the moment. Not doing too bad mentally but my hormone balance between brain and periphery is still out of whack. For instance I am constantly suffering from water retention and gut bloat. But the moment I touch anything that reduces estrogen, there goes all my libido, brain fog increases and I can't sleep for ***t.

My peripheral 5-AR is still underexpressed or my aromatase is too high. I'll try to cut down at least 10 lbs of weight which should help. In the meantime I'm trying to find BAC water that doesn't cost an arm and a leg so I can do 2 more vials of HCG...

What is your understanding of the relationship between perhipheral and central 5-ar expression? Are they at odds with one another? Sometimes I have to admit that I feel physically very good but mentally very numb, and other times I feel mentally somewhat improved but physically quite weak. If these two are at odds with one another, hopefully they will balance out as we increase 5-ar. Overall I am still vastly improved compared to last year.

 

[sladerunner69]

Please don't.

You'll feel amazing the first two days on Exemestane, and like death after for a few weeks until your e2 creeps back up.

Have you figured how to keep e2 up but decrease the more damaging kinds of estrogen? Sometimes I have to admit my libido is very low and I have no emotion and then I'll drink half a glass of beer and be bouncing off the walls with energy and emotion. Then I'll drink a few more beers and be just knocked out cold. I think this is the estrogen balance at play, but also too much GABA stimulation and gut irritation.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

What is your understanding of the relationship between perhipheral and central 5-ar expression? Are they at odds with one another? Sometimes I have to admit that I feel physically very good but mentally very numb, and other times I feel mentally somewhat improved but physically quite weak. If these two are at odds with one another, hopefully they will balance out as we increase 5-ar. Overall I am still vastly improved compared to last year.

They are in an inverse relationship essentially. The peripheral DHT exerts negative feedback on neurosteroid synthesis in the brain. An additional problem is the already low estradiol in PFS CNS, which then gets further crushed by high DHT.

Now, normally this shouldn't be a problem in a healthy body but I believe that because the AR in our brains is still overexpressed, the overall signal of peripheral androgenic activity is amplified (brain senses more androgenic activity than there is) and then the 5-AR in the CNS gets downregulated too much by normal levels of peripheral androgens.

That's why when I take for example creatine or eat sorghum, I will dump water, my midsection will flatten, I'll feel lighter and less bloated and look more androgenic, but my mental function will take a nose dive and my sleep becomes worse. This may be a negative effect on 5-AR but it also happens with antiestrogens, so I believe the low E2 is even further offset by peripheral androgens.

Alternatively I can take something like alpha-ketoglutarate which has me feeling estrogenic (itchy nipples, gut bloat and water retention), but improves my brain fog, sleep and overall mood.

What we're really trying to do is to achieve normal tissue activity of 5-AR, normal expression of androgen receptors in the brain which don't overreact to those levels, and all neurosteroids and sex hormones in the cerebrospinal fluid restored to normal levels. Easier said than done.

 

[Charger]

They are in an inverse relationship essentially. The peripheral DHT exerts negative feedback on neurosteroid synthesis in the brain. An additional problem is the already low estradiol in PFS CNS, which then gets further crushed by high DHT.

Now, normally this shouldn't be a problem in a healthy body but I believe that because the AR in our brains is still overexpressed, the overall signal of peripheral androgenic activity is amplified (brain senses more androgenic activity than there is) and then the 5-AR in the CNS gets downregulated too much by normal levels of peripheral androgens.

That's why when I take for example creatine or eat sorghum, I will dump water, my midsection will flatten, I'll feel lighter and less bloated and look more androgenic, but my mental function will take a nose dive and my sleep becomes worse. This may be a negative effect on 5-AR but it also happens with antiestrogens, so I believe the low E2 is even further offset by peripheral androgens.

Alternatively I can take something like alpha-ketoglutarate which has me feeling estrogenic (itchy nipples, gut bloat and water retention), but improves my brain fog, sleep and overall mood.

What we're really trying to do is to achieve normal tissue activity of 5-AR, normal expression of androgen receptors in the brain which don't overreact to those levels, and all neurosteroids and sex hormones in the cerebrospinal fluid restored to normal levels. Easier said than done.

It was always strange to me that people warn about high estrogen with Finasteride, aside from neurosteroids, I'm sure most of my cognitive issues came from low estrogen. Which if Fin is acting like Progesterone, would make sense considering it antagonizes both DHT and estrogen.

I relate to what you're describing here, I'm sensitive to anything antagonizes estrogen, whether its DHT or otherwise. I think I was like this before fin, though I notice it's effects on memory more than I did before finasteride.

I think a lot of the memory issues I had with fin were very low estrogen, anything that tanks estrogen gives me the same cognitive/memory problems.