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Finally Cured From Post Finasteride Syndrome

Mister

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Joined
Aug 12, 2020
Messages
224
@Mister I came across that article one or two years ago.

His theory is not only wrong, it is plain ignorant.

No, testosterone and DHT do not have the same role.

And no, PFS clearly isn't just a matter of low androgens.

The research on this is clear and the lack of proven recoveries telling.
True, although I think he's right about the proviron part being a good potential treatment for PFS.

Btw, I came across this:

"Proviron has a shitty bioavailability, it’s 3-4% IIRC. So taking something like 200mg, only 6-8mg will be used by the body. Normal dosage is 200-300mg for a couple of months and then 50-75mg maintenence."


Anyone know if this is true?
 

Cooper

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Oct 12, 2020
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Location
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Has anyone here got varicoceles on testicles due to PFS, if so did it ever resolve on temporary recoveries etc.?

Normally, once you get varicocele, you can't reverse it back without surgery. But since our issue is so bizarre i wonder about any chances?

I also have developed it and i think it is due to PAS, and because the prostate nerves doesn't work properly. There is a study which concludes prostatitis and varicoceles are connected. So considering our damage on prostate is even greater than a classic prostatitis case it makes sense.

Prostate controls bloodflow to genitals, and once it gets some damage, bloodflow gets damage bingo= You develop varicose veins on testicles....

Anyone please?
 

Gustav3Y

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Nov 23, 2020
Messages
767
I also have developed it and i think it is due to PAS, and because the prostate nerves doesn't work properly. There is a study which concludes prostatitis and varicoceles are connected. So considering our damage on prostate is even greater than a classic prostatitis case it makes sense.

Prostatitis in theory it is a bacterial infection that can be reoccurring.
Interestingly enough I have not heard anyone diagnosed with it in real life.

What about people that have varicocele since puberty?
 

Gustav3Y

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Joined
Nov 23, 2020
Messages
767

Antipsychotic-Like Properties of 5-α-Reductase Inhibitors​



"As binding analyses attest that FIN binds to neither D1 nor D2 dopamine receptors (S Ruiu, personal communication), the ability of this agent and other 5AR inhibitors to antagonize the behavioral actions of APO and AMPH strongly suggests that this enzyme may be involved in the modulation of brain dopaminergic signaling beyond the synapse, via direct or indirect mechanisms. "

"For example, FIN enhances stress-mediated release of dopamine (Dazzi et al, 2002), but prevents ethanol-induced increase in extracellular dopamine concentration (Dazzi et al, 2007)."


"FIN-induced reduction in locomotor activity may reflect several concurrent mechanisms, mediated by different 5AR substrates. For example, progesterone has been shown to block several receptors that may modulate psychotic-like actions, such as sigma or 5-HT3 receptors (Monnet and Maurice, 2006; Wetzel et al, 1998). "
 

Mister

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Aug 12, 2020
Messages
224
Since we're posting studies too, here are some interesting ones. (especially in regard to DHT treatments like proviron)


DHT restores anabolism / vitality / sexuality even in 90+ y.o. males​

A great study, a true blast from the (better) past, when androgenic steroids and especially DHT were not considered the devil reincarnate, but were commonly used for all types of ailments, including the broad physiological and psychological symptoms of aging such as sarcopenia (muscle loss), osteoporosis, senility, apathy/depression, and even sexual function. The study demonstrates that daily treatment with 25mg DHT (a.k.a Stanolone) was able to reverse most of these aging symptoms in a group of males with average age of 77+ years, and containing two subjects aged 83 and 93 years. Anybody who has met 90+ year-old (or even 80+ year-old) people is quite aware that such people have great difficulty moving, are often of poor mood and rarely have an interest in doing anything challenging/exciting - no doubt a result of their poor metabolic/energetic status and generalized frailty. Above all, such people are almost universally quite apathetic to the opposite sex and specifically to sexual activity. As the study demonstrates, DHT treatment not only greatly improved the muscle/bone/mood health but was able to reverse the "neuter attitude" quite common among such elderly males. If 25mg DHT daily can make 80-90 year-old males chase female nurses all day long, and get into fights out of jealousy - apparently, a medically-recognized sign of rejuvenation :- then the anti-aging industry is probably doomed as the humble DHT may have already solved their problem. Yes, that same DHT, which medicine tells us will make us bald, cancerous, and raging lunatics. Hhhmm, actually that last description fits quite well most male doctors I have met...and, of course, they do everything in their power to lower their endogenous DHT

Metabolism in the aged: the effect of stanolone on the retention of nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, and calcium and on the urinary excretion of 17-keto, 11-oxy, and 17-hydroxy steroids in eight elderly men on high and low protein diets - PubMed
"...The stanolone used was suspended as microcrystals in a concentration of 50 mg./ml. sterile distilled water containing sodium carboxymethyl cellulose (0.1%) as a suspending agent, thimerosal (0.01%) as a preservative, and sodium chloride (0.9%). The steroid was administered intramuscularly in doses of 50 mg. on alternate days....A late result of hormone therapy was the change in mental attitude of the subjects. Joviality increased; testimonials of well-being were volunteered; generalized euphoria seemed to seize some; interest in the female sex was frequently expressed; evidences of jealousy over favors rendered by the female nursing staff developed, and a decided change from the customary neuter attitude of the patients toward the nurses became apparent."
"...The metabolic balance data indicate that stanolone is able to cause retention of the pro- toplasmic constituents of nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus in men past 70 over and above the retention achieved by an adequate diet high in protein. When an isocaloric low protein diet was offered to the same indi- viduals, androgen therapy also resulted in re- tention of nitrogen, potassium, and phos- phorus, but to a quantitatively less extent than on the high protein regimen. Calcium retention was not produced by the hormone on either regimen. Data on urinary steroids revealed a significant increase in 17-keto- steroid excretion but no other changes. Side effects induced by the androgen used were primarily those of pain at the injection site, fluid retention, and increase in euphoria and libido."


DHT restores anabolism / vitality / sexuality even in 90+ y.o. males


DHT is an estrogen (receptor) antagonist – To Extract Knowledge from Matter


DHT is an estrogen (receptor) antagonist​


A neat little study, and in-vivo at that, which demonstrates that DHT is a direct estrogen receptor (ER) antagonist. According to the study, so are testosterone, nandrolone and a few other steroids with demonstrated therapeutic effects on ER-positive breast cancer (BC). However, all of the other steroids mentioned by the study are aromatizable and as such suboptimal as anti-estrogens compared to DHT. This is probably one of the reasons that back in the 1960s when synthetic steroids for treatment of BC were first developed, only DHT derivatives such as Proviron and Masteron eventually made it to clinical trials and got approval for this condition. None of the aromatizable synthetic androgens (or testosterone for that matter) made it through the clinical trials despite being much more widely used (experimentally) for BC at the time. When we also consider the fact that DHT (and other 5-AR derives steroids) are also aromatase inhibitors, it becomes clear that DHT is right up there with progesterone in terms of importance for estrogen antagonism, and perhaps the main anti-estrogen in males. Another interesting finding of the study was that the anti-estrogenic effects of DHT were independent from its role as an androgen agonist. However, androgen agonists are well-known known to have anti-estrogenic effects of their own, so the effectiveness of DHT as an anti-estrogen is actually amplified by its role as a strong androgen. Finally, the study provide some information on what a physiological dose of DHT would be, which is subject to much debate in the literature and in the blogosphere. As the study states, healthy males produce about 45 mcg estrogen daily and DHT amounts need to be about 50 times higher in order to fully block the effects of a given amount of estrogen. This means that a daily physiological dose is about 2mg for healthy adult males, and that dose may need to be increased with increasing age or pathological conditions resulting in elevated estrogens such as liver disease, diabetes, prostate cancer, etc.

Antiestrogenic action of dihydrotestosterone in mouse breast. Competition with estradiol for binding to the estrogen receptor - PubMed

“…Estrogen treatment to such mice stimulates breast growth and as in other species increases the amount of progesterone receptor in the breast. Both effects of estradiol can be inhibited by dihydrotestosterone. We concluded that this might be an adequate model system for investigating the mechanism of the antiestrogenic action of androgen, and we designed experiments to assess two mechanisms that have been proposed for this action, namely that androgen acts at the genomic level via its own receptor to block estrogen action or that androgen acts as a pharmacological antagonist and/or weak estrogen agonist by competing with estradiol for the estrogen receptor. The findings in these experiments favor the latter possibility. Indeed, the fact that dihydrotestosterone was equally effective in blocking estrogen effects in tfm/Y and control mice suggests that this action of androgen is not mediated by the androgen receptor. If this interpretation is correct, then this effect of androgen is different than the antiestrogenic effect of the hormone in the embryonic mouse breast (11) and in the uterus (12). Dihydrotestosterone binds weakly to the estrogen receptor in mouse breast and like some other antiestrogens appears to anchor the estrogen-receptor in the nucleus of the cell. These effects have only been studied with pharmacological amounts of hormone, but the fact that the relative binding affinities of dihydrotestosterone, 313-androstanediol, testosterone, and Sfdihydrotestosterone correlate with their capacities to inhibit induction of the progesterone receptor is in keeping with the finding in MCF7 tumor cells (10) that androgens bind to the estrogen receptor. Unlike the situation in MCF7 cells, however, we were unable to demonstrate any estrogen-like effects of dihydrotestosterone on the mouse breast.”
“…If androgen prevents the development of gynecomastia in normal men by acting as a direct antiestrogen at the level of the estrogen receptor, this is the first androgen action recognized that is not mediated by the androgen receptor.”
“…Normal men produce ~45 mcg of estradiol each day, a sixth of which is secreted by the testes and the remainder of which is derived from the extraglandular aromatization of circulating androgens (1). Extraglandular estradiol formation takes place by two mechanisms, one from the direct conversion of testosterone to estradiol and the other from androgens of adrenal origin by the sequence of androstenedione – estrone – estradiol. The function of estradiol in normal men is unknown, but feminization, commonly manifested by gynecomastia, ensues under conditions of relative or absolute estrogen excess (2)….By this estimate estradiol binds to the estrogen receptor with an affinity that is approximately fifty times greater than that of dihydrotestosterone.”


Low DHT can cause hypogonadism symptoms even in eugonadal men – To Extract Knowledge from Matter


Low DHT can cause hypogonadism symptoms even in eugonadal men​


Seemingly contradictory title, but the study findings are pretty clear. Namely, even in males with normal testosterone levels there is a direct inverse relationship between DHT levels and symptoms of hypogonadism such as sexual dysfunction and “aging male” syndrome. For every 10% increase in DHT levels there was a 4.67% decrease in hypogonadism symptoms of eugonadal males. So, once again, this is evidence that testosterone (T) is little more than a pro-hormone produced in the gonads and peripheral tissues and that its metabolite DHT is the primary androgen responsible for health of males.

Serum concentrations of dihydrotestosterone are associated with symptoms of hypogonadism in biochemically eugonadal men - PubMed

“…Results: Serum total/free T as well as dihydro-T (DHT) was associated with IIEF-EF and AMS scores in the overall population using univariate analyses. Multivariate approaches revealed DHT concentrations in subjects with normal T levels (n = 416, Total T > 12 nmol/L) to be significant predictors of AMS scores. A 0.1 nmol/l serum DHT increase within the eugonadal range was associated with a 4.67% decrease in odds of having worse symptoms (p = 0.011). In men with biochemical hypogonadism (Total T < 12 nmol/L), total and free T rather than DHT were associated with AMS results. This association was not found for IIEF-EF scores. Indirect effects of age and BMI were seen for relations with hormone concentrations but not questionnaire scores. Conclusion: DHT can be associated with symptoms of hypogonadism in biochemically eugonadal men. Serum DHT measurement might be helpful once the diagnosis of hypogonadism has been ruled out but should not be routinely included in the primary diagnostic process.”
 

stoic

Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
130
True, although I think he's right about the proviron part being a good potential treatment for PFS.

Btw, I came across this:

"Proviron has a shitty bioavailability, it’s 3-4% IIRC. So taking something like 200mg, only 6-8mg will be used by the body. Normal dosage is 200-300mg for a couple of months and then 50-75mg maintenence."


Anyone know if this is true?
Proviron is marketed for various purposes, and the normal dosage varies accordingly.

I couldn't find any recent leaflet in English, so here's a google-translated version from 2016
(source: https://www.bayer.com/sites/default/files/2020-11/Proviron.pdf).
The following dosage schedule is recommended:
- Decline in physical activity and mental alertness and power disorders
Start of treatment: 1 Proviron tablet 3 times a day.
When a satisfactory improvement has been achieved, a reduction in the
dose.
Continuation of treatment: 1 Proviron tablet 2-1 times a day.
Depending on the nature and intensity of the disturbance or symptoms, you must adapt
this maintenance dose to individual needs. A treatment is recommended
continuous for several months.

- In hypogonadism, continuous treatment is required
To stimulate the formation of secondary sexual characters it is necessary to administer
1-2 Proviron tablets 3 times a day for several months.
As a maintenance dose, a Proviron tablet 2-3 times may suffice per day.

- Infertility - to improve sperm quantity and quality
1 Proviron tablet 2-3 times a day during a spermatogenic cycle
complete, ie approx. 90 days. Sometimes it is convenient to repeat the treatment after
an interval of several weeks.
To increase the concentration of fructose in the ejaculate in cases of postpubertal Leydig cell insufficiency,
it is recommended to administer a Proviron 2 tablet times a day for several months.
What I take from this is that depending on the problem and timeline, between 75mg and 150mg per day could be effective.
Anything higher than 150mg isn't recommended at all, but I understand that it could work for us based on the upregulation thesis.
 
Last edited:

Gustav3Y

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Nov 23, 2020
Messages
767
It is quite interesting the info on Proviron, while talked a lot on forums and in videos I cannot recall hearing anyone being prescribed Proviron by a doctor, a large number of people seems to just buy it themselves (not that is a problem).
 

stoic

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Aug 21, 2020
Messages
130
It is quite interesting the info on Proviron, while talked a lot on forums and in videos I cannot recall hearing anyone being prescribed Proviron by a doctor, a large number of people seems to just buy it themselves (not that is a problem).
Proviron was never marketed in the US, so there's that.

But I think the issue is much larger.

How can it be possible that anti-androgens such as finasteride and accutane are readily prescribed to millions, whilst any talk of androgen use is mostly considered vacuous or criminal?

The current medical system reflects a society that no longer values masculinity.
 

Mister

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Aug 12, 2020
Messages
224
Proviron was never marketed in the US, so there's that.

But I think the issue is much larger.

How can it be possible that anti-androgens such as finasteride and accutane are readily prescribed to millions, whilst any talk of androgen use is mostly considered vacuous or criminal?

The current medical system reflects a society that no longer values masculinity.
Absolutely right. And HCG is also harder to get in the US now.
 

Gustav3Y

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Joined
Nov 23, 2020
Messages
767
How can it be possible that anti-androgens such as finasteride and accutane are readily prescribed to millions, whilst any talk of androgen use is mostly considered vacuous or criminal?

We have to take into account what doctors say androgens do: cancer, prostate enlargement, cardiac issues, aggression, sexual interactions, hairloss.

So is going to argue that?
Especially when you bring up the hairloss, even males, I think this needs no discussion, will be ready to get castrated in order to have hair today.
So that also says a lot what men thing about themselves if one is ready to go that far in life.

Estrogenic effects are completely disconsidered as a male issue by doctors as a whole, not to mention the constant regurgitation of estrogen protects against heart disease.
Any doctor will quickly say, well most criminal activity is male dominated on all levels of criminal activity, thus androgens are bad.
 

stoic

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Joined
Aug 21, 2020
Messages
130
We have to take into account what doctors say androgens do: cancer, prostate enlargement, cardiac issues, aggression, sexual interactions, hairloss.

So is going to argue that?
Especially when you bring up the hairloss, even males, I think this needs no discussion, will be ready to get castrated in order to have hair today.
So that also says a lot what men thing about themselves if one is ready to go that far in life.

Estrogenic effects are completely disconsidered as a male issue by doctors as a whole, not to mention the constant regurgitation of estrogen protects against heart disease.
Any doctor will quickly say, well most criminal activity is male dominated on all levels of criminal activity, thus androgens are bad.
That's a fair point. Indeed, I believe doctors only aggravate what is actually a social and cultural problem.

The current trend is for men to try and look youthful, which is the biological feminine standard of beauty.

Call me a reactionary, but I really think healthy men should turn back to a more traditional male standard.
 

Mister

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Aug 12, 2020
Messages
224
That's a fair point. Indeed, I believe doctors only aggravate what is actually a social and cultural problem.

The current trend is for men to try and look youthful, which is the biological feminine standard of beauty.

Call me a reactionary, but I really think healthy men should turn back to a more traditional male standard.
Absolutely, let's be honest here I doubt many men would take finasteride if they were young 50 years ago.
 

Gustav3Y

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Joined
Nov 23, 2020
Messages
767
Absolutely, let's be honest here I doubt many men would take finasteride if they were young 50 years ago.

Absolutely.

Let's not forget the male nobles and bourgeoisie wore wigs for a good period in history in Western Europe and USA, so probably there is also the association that high status means hair by monetary means of getting it.

Not only that but often paintings of these people were idealized even if we think they don't look ideal, so basically they look better than they really looked even if we think they don't look excellent.
 

Gustav3Y

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Nov 23, 2020
Messages
767
The current trend is for men to try and look youthful, which is the biological feminine standard of beauty.

Agree.

Problem is what fundamentally is manly is today considered by females and even other males as dead (hard labor of dead pofessions) or of very low class (packing things in a supermarket, driver, etc), here I mean in societies that are 1st world.
Also a major reason why 1st world countries import hard labor workers or drivers, pickers, etc.
Who wants to be seen as low class in a society anyway?
 

rayban

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Jan 4, 2021
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Location
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White tongue can appear after antibiotics, can be candida or other fungus even without antibiotics.
I didn't take antibiotics. Im using a mouthwash with 0.05 clorhexidine but the tongue stayds white and the white markes still come and go
 

Mister

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Aug 12, 2020
Messages
224
Btw, any of you guys with PFS took any of the covid vaccins?

Did have any affect on your PFS?
 
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