Feedbacks And Opinions On My Progest-E Usage

[Heather]

I would love to have people's feedback and opinions about the following:

I started taking progest-e 2 weeks ago, orally. I took fairly high doses (not sure how much, as I was dosing to symptoms--I'm guessing 20-30 drops, maybe) but I was under the impression that any possible side effect would be pretty benign, so I wasn't worried about taking so much. I was rubbing the oil into my gums as I heard this would be good for gum health (Peat quote from somewhere). So, a couple of days ago I went to the dentist for my regular cleaning and he informed me that my gums are inflamed and are loosening from the teeth (beginning periodontal disease). I checked online and it turns out that high progesterone levels can cause gingivitis (the beginnings of periodontal disease). Now, this issue may have been brewing in my mouth before, but it's also true that a week ago I started to feel that my gums and teeth were feeling weirdly sensitive and unhappy.

Also, I was rubbing a drop of the oil under each eye to deal with some damaged skin, and now the skin there looks like tissue paper and looks significantly worse than it did before. It looks thin, fragile, and dry. Of course, I have stopped using the oil (also, because I started my period today, so had to stop anyway).

I know that people here have had great experiences with progest-e, and I'm wondering if I simply took too much, or if there is some other factor that I'm overlooking. Perhaps the fragility of the skin is a step in the healing process? As for the gums, I just don't see how that can be good! Thoughts?

Edited to say: I thought about putting this in the "Help" section, so please feel free to move it there if you think that makes more sense.

 

[peatarian]

I would love to have people's feedback and opinions about the following:

I started taking progest-e 2 weeks ago, orally. I took fairly high doses (not sure how much, as I was dosing to symptoms--I'm guessing 20-30 drops, maybe) but I was under the impression that any possible side effect would be pretty benign, so I wasn't worried about taking so much. I was rubbing the oil into my gums as I heard this would be good for gum health (Peat quote from somewhere). So, a couple of days ago I went to the dentist for my regular cleaning and he informed me that my gums are inflamed and are loosening from the teeth (beginning periodontal disease). I checked online and it turns out that high progesterone levels can cause gingivitis (the beginnings of periodontal disease). Now, this issue may have been brewing in my mouth before, but it's also true that a week ago I started to feel that my gums and teeth were feeling weirdly sensitive and unhappy.

Also, I was rubbing a drop of the oil under each eye to deal with some damaged skin, and now the skin there looks like tissue paper and looks significantly worse than it did before. It looks thin, fragile, and dry. Of course, I have stopped using the oil (also, because I started my period today, so had to stop anyway).

I know that people here have had great experiences with progest-e, and I'm wondering if I simply took too much, or if there is some other factor that I'm overlooking. Perhaps the fragility of the skin is a step in the healing process? As for the gums, I just don't see how that can be good! Thoughts?

Edited to say: I thought about putting this in the "Help" section, so please feel free to move it there if you think that makes more sense.

I don't think your gum problem has anything to do with the progest-e. I know a woman who's had this problem for more than 10 years. She has had a hysterectomy and has been using the pill ever since. Ray Peat advised her to quit the pill and start using progesterone. She used progest-e and thyroid and vitamin a. A month later she went to her doctor and was terribly disappointed to hear that nothing had changed. Her teeth were really moving in their sockets. I convinced her to go on with her regimen and to add calcium in the form of milk and eggshellpowder to her diet. She never used the amount I recommended. I think it was only a glass a day and one teaspoon of powder. When I asked her four months later about her teeth it was the first time she really checked and noticed that they were not moving anymore. She went back to her dentist and he told her that even the precancerous lesions in her mouth were gone.

About "progesterone" research you will not find anyone more competent than Ray Peat. In fact you will find 90% BS about every hormone. Insulin is saving lives, serotonin is a 'happy hormone', thyroid is not needed unless your gland has been removed and even then you should use T4 only. Estrogen is protective, progesterone is carcinogenic. I suppose you didn't do clinical study research but just googled medical-info pages. Even in scientific research they hardly ever use the term right. There is a new study now, claiming to be about progesterone in head traumata. It's not - it's about progestins. When I searched pubmed I found that 70% of research says estrogen is responsible for gum troubles. There used to be the saying "For every kid you lose a tooth" - that's because most women don't use enough calcium during pregnancy and because estrogen destroys the bones and teeth by prohibiting their renewal. Estrogen is highly inflammatory.

To know how much progesterone you've been using you'd have to tell me how long it takes to empty a bottle. I used to have bleeding gums for more than 10 years before I started using progesterone. The bleeding's gone now.
How much calcium are you using? Vitamin A would be important, vitamin D3, vitamin K, magnesium - I suggest you look at the supplement list. I suppose you've had estrogen dominance symptoms for a long time. Otherwise you wouldn't have started progest-e. You can't expect progest-e to counter the effects of this estrogen problem within days or weeks. Give it time. And make sure you lower estrogen, too. Use aspirin, vitamin a, use coconut oil and calcium and salt and lots of sugar.

By the way: you don't have to stop progesterone. During the first two months I would suggest to use it every day.

As for your thin skin: If the diet is deficient of protein the necessary protein is taken out of the skin. It makes the skin thin and nearly transparent. A bad diet will always show first under your eyes since the skin is thinnest there. It will show around your mouth and neck next if you don't change that. Eat regularly. Don't got through the day without eating. Don't spend more than an hour without at least drinking milk or orange juice. I have a friend who lives off salad. Her skin looks like japanese paper. The recycled kind. Especially under her eyes.

 

[Heather]

@peatarian -- thank you for your very thoughtful response. Using the progesterone is a little scary to me because hormones are powerful and I feel a like I'm experimenting on myself. It's reassuring to get input from someone who is very experienced with taking it.

I will definitely focus on getting more calcium. Because I can't have dairy (I have a casein intolerance) I've been struggling to get enough calcium. Since I take NDT and you are not supposed to have calcium supplements for several hours before and after taking them, then I can only take them at night, and if I have red meat, then I don't want to take vit C at the same time, but then the calcium doesn't get absorbed very well--Aarrgghh! If only I could have dairy--or not take the stupid thyroid! Anyway, I've been doing all the other supplements that you suggest, and those are fine, but I definitely think I'm not getting enough calcium.

The skin change under the eyes is still worrying me, as the skin there literally looks like it has aged 10-20 years in the past week (and I work in the performing arts and cannot afford to look prematurely old). I'm puzzled as to what is actually going on, though. Because of the time frame it can't be due to a protein deficiency. Also, I've been eating "primal" for a year, so I'm not at all protein deficient. Clearly the progest-e did something to the skin, but I don't understand the mechanism.

It's very weird looking. There is a network of lines that weren't there before, and if I pull on the skin it's as if the top layer is crinkly and thin, but there is a sort of puffy soft layer underneath. So, when I said the skin looks thin, that is what I meant. Actually, if I don't move the skin at all and look straight at myself, then the skin change is not noticeable, because the actual thickness of the skin hasn't changed. Seriously, it is very strange, and at the moment very upsetting. I really hope it improves significantly.

When you have used progest-e for wound healing what does the skin look like as it is healing?

 

[narouz]

@peatarian -- thank you for your very thoughtful response. Using the progesterone is a little scary to me because hormones are powerful and I feel a like I'm experimenting on myself. It's reassuring to get input from someone who is very experienced with taking it.

I will definitely focus on getting more calcium. Because I can't have dairy (I have a casein intolerance) I've been struggling to get enough calcium. Since I take NDT and you are not supposed to have calcium supplements for several hours before and after taking them, then I can only take them at night, and if I have red meat, then I don't want to take vit C at the same time, but then the calcium doesn't get absorbed very well--Aarrgghh! If only I could have dairy--or not take the stupid thyroid! Anyway, I've been doing all the other supplements that you suggest, and those are fine, but I definitely think I'm not getting enough calcium.

The skin change under the eyes is still worrying me, as the skin there literally looks like it has aged 10-20 years in the past week (and I work in the performing arts and cannot afford to look prematurely old). I'm puzzled as to what is actually going on, though. Because of the time frame it can't be due to a protein deficiency. Also, I've been eating "primal" for a year, so I'm not at all protein deficient. Clearly the progest-e did something to the skin, but I don't understand the mechanism.

It's very weird looking. There is a network of lines that weren't there before, and if I pull on the skin it's as if the top layer is crinkly and thin, but there is a sort of puffy soft layer underneath. So, when I said the skin looks thin, that is what I meant. Actually, if I don't move the skin at all and look straight at myself, then the skin change is not noticeable, because the actual thickness of the skin hasn't changed. Seriously, it is very strange, and at the moment very upsetting. I really hope it improves significantly.

When you have used progest-e for wound healing what does the skin look like as it is healing?

Heather-
Some Peat angles on milk allergies/intolerance and progesterone,
from "Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths"
Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths

"Another hormonal condition that probably contributes to lactase deficiency is progesterone deficiency, since a synthetic progestin has been found to increase the enzyme (Nagpaul, et al., 1990). The particular progestin they used lacks many of progesterone's effects, but it does protect against some kinds of stress, including high estrogen and cortisol. This suggests that stress, with its increased ratio of estrogen and cortisol to progesterone, might commonly cause the enzyme to decrease."

Also: wouldn't bone broth be a great source of calcium?
Are you a bone broth-er?

 

[Heather]

Heather-
Some Peat angles on milk allergies/intolerance and progesterone,
from "Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths"
Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths


Also: wouldn't bone broth be a great source of calcium?
Are you a bone broth-er?

Hi Narouz -- that's an interesting article. Thanks for the link. I particularly like this quote: "A crocodile might experience the same sort of allergic reaction when eating estrogen-treated women and when eating commercial bananas."

So, based on what Peat says in the article maybe there is hope that by reducing my estrogen levels my casein intolerance may disappear. That would be a miracle!

I drink bone broth every day (usually twice a day), but I'm not convinced that it is a great source of calcium. As far as I know, there isn't great nutritional data available to prove this one way or the other, but based on what I've read, and my own experience making it, I just don't buy that you will get much calcium from it.

 

[peatarian]

@peatarian -- thank you for your very thoughtful response. Using the progesterone is a little scary to me because hormones are powerful and I feel a like I'm experimenting on myself. It's reassuring to get input from someone who is very experienced with taking it.

*** Ray Peat says hormones have a bad reputation because of estrogen's effects. I think that's true. Many people who would really need progesterone tell me they don't want to use 'hormones'. Well, you do every day. Vitamin A and vitamin D would really fit the description of hormone. Salt has hormone like effects. So you are really experimenting with hormones every time you eat a carrot. There is only one side effect from progesterone if you use a lot (about 1 bottle in three days) over a long time (half a year or more): It suppresses testosterone and by that can decrease muscle mass. There are 200 hormones. Estrogen is the most dangerous one. But lots of people are forced to use insulin with damaging effects.

@peatarianI will definitely focus on getting more calcium. Because I can't have dairy (I have a casein intolerance) I've been struggling to get enough calcium. Since I take NDT and you are not supposed to have calcium supplements for several hours before and after taking them, then I can only take them at night, and if I have red meat, then I don't want to take vit C at the same time, but then the calcium doesn't get absorbed very well--Aarrgghh! If only I could have dairy--or not take the stupid thyroid! Anyway, I've been doing all the other supplements that you suggest, and those are fine, but I definitely think I'm not getting enough calcium.

*** I have never heard of not using calcium with NDT. Where did you find this? I wouldn't use any calcium supplements. They attack the liver. Use eggshellpowder, milk or cheese. You shouldn't use vitamin C as a supplement at all. It can damage your kidneys. If you eat red meat (meaning muscle meat) you should use lots and lots of gelatin with it and coca-cola or coffee because of the iron. Why wouldn't the calcium be absorbed well if you don't use vitamin C? I think you are confusing it with vitamin D3.
Maybe you should read Ray Peat's articles on iron, calcium and progesterone again?

@peatarianThe skin change under the eyes is still worrying me, as the skin there literally looks like it has aged 10-20 years in the past week (and I work in the performing arts and cannot afford to look prematurely old). I'm puzzled as to what is actually going on, though. Because of the time frame it can't be due to a protein deficiency. Also, I've been eating "primal" for a year, so I'm not at all protein deficient. Clearly the progest-e did something to the skin, but I don't understand the mechanism.

*** I don't think progest-e can do any damage to the skin. As I said: This symptom comes from a protein deficiency. I don't know what you mean by 'eating primal' but if it means lots of red meat and raw vegetables - this diet would be adding to your problems. You should eat protein (potatoes) throughout the whole day not just during three meals.

@peatarianIt's very weird looking. There is a network of lines that weren't there before, and if I pull on the skin it's as if the top layer is crinkly and thin, but there is a sort of puffy soft layer underneath. So, when I said the skin looks thin, that is what I meant. Actually, if I don't move the skin at all and look straight at myself, then the skin change is not noticeable, because the actual thickness of the skin hasn't changed. Seriously, it is very strange, and at the moment very upsetting. I really hope it improves significantly.

*** Yes, that would be paper skin. It should be gone within two weeks on a Peat diet. Maybe you want to read about tryptophan. It might explain a lot.

@peatarianWhen you have used progest-e for wound healing what does the skin look like as it is healing?

*** It looks like perfect skin. Hardly any pores visible, like a baby's skin. Since I've had severe burn wounds once - this took more time. It was pink for a while until it healed without leaving a scar. But you need the protein.

 

[Heather]

*** Ray Peat says hormones have a bad reputation because of estrogen's effects. I think that's true. Many people who would really need progesterone tell me they don't want to use 'hormones'. Well, you do every day. Vitamin A and vitamin D would really fit the description of hormone. Salt has hormone like effects. So you are really experimenting with hormones every time you eat a carrot. There is only one side effect from progesterone if you use a lot (about 1 bottle in three days) over a long time (half a year or more): It suppresses testosterone and by that can decrease muscle mass. There are 200 hormones. Estrogen is the most dangerous one. But lots of people are forced to use insulin with damaging effects.

This is very reassuring, and an interesting perspective shift for me. I'm going to keep on experimenting.

*** I have never heard of not using calcium with NDT. Where did you find this? I wouldn't use any calcium supplements. They attack the liver. Use eggshellpowder, milk or cheese. You shouldn't use vitamin C as a supplement at all. It can damage your kidneys. If you eat red meat (meaning muscle meat) you should use lots and lots of gelatin with it and coca-cola or coffee because of the iron. Why wouldn't the calcium be absorbed well if you don't use vitamin C? I think you are confusing it with vitamin D3.
Maybe you should read Ray Peat's articles on iron, calcium and progesterone again?

When using thyroid medication you are not supposed to have iron, calcium or coffee anywhere near the medication time windows. At least, that is the current prevailing "wisdom." Here's a link:
http://thyroid.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/ ... ug-faq.htm

Does Peat address this issue at all?

Anyway, at this point, thyroid alone has not helped me tremendously, so I'm focusing on all the other Peat recommendations, and if it means I don't fully absorb my thyroid medication, then for now I'm going to let that ride.

Yes, I was confused about needing to take vitamin C with calcium. Thanks for pointing that out! That makes thing s a little easier. I will check out Peat's articles on iron, calcium, and progesterone. I need all the knowledge I can get.

*** I don't think progest-e can do any damage to the skin. As I said: This symptom comes from a protein deficiency. I don't know what you mean by 'eating primal' but if it means lots of red meat and raw vegetables - this diet would be adding to your problems. You should eat protein (potatoes) throughout the whole day not just during three meals.

So, I've been careful about adding up my protein intake, and I found that I haven't been hitting my target every day. So, that needs to improve. By primal I meant that I was basically Paleo (so lots of protein) but also was OK with plenty of carbs, and I thought dairy was fine (if you can tolerate it--which so far I can't). However, I don't love protein, and with some of my protein sources no longer being OK (chicken, pork, fatty fish) I was having a hard time getting enough in. I wasn't thinking of potatoes as a protein source, but I will be happy to add those in!

My working hypothesis right now is that the progest-e has strong exfoliating properties, and the 1st step in the process is that the top layer of skin gets very dry and really reveals all the damage which was already there. I say this because now the top layer of my skin has been crumbling off and the skin is looking and feeling much better. Such a relief!

 

[peatarian]

@peatarian -- thank you for your very thoughtful response. Using the progesterone is a little scary to me because hormones are powerful and I feel a like I'm experimenting on myself. It's reassuring to get input from someone who is very experienced with taking it.

I will definitely focus on getting more calcium. Because I can't have dairy (I have a casein intolerance) I've been struggling to get enough calcium. Since I take NDT and you are not supposed to have calcium supplements for several hours before and after taking them, then I can only take them at night, and if I have red meat, then I don't want to take vit C at the same time, but then the calcium doesn't get absorbed very well--Aarrgghh! If only I could have dairy--or not take the stupid thyroid! Anyway, I've been doing all the other supplements that you suggest, and those are fine, but I definitely think I'm not getting enough calcium.

*** Yes, I hear that about milk all the time. I still haven't found anything convincing about the lactose free kind. I think this reaction has a lot to do with bacterial overgrowth. Do you have charcoal? It's good to use it every third day before going to bed. It reduces bacteria potently. Until you can consume enough milk, you should supplement with eggshell powder to get the needed amount of calcium.

*** The link you sent me (thank you) is not convincing. I have never heard of trouble with eating or drinking anything and using thyroid at the same time (or experienced anything like that myself). If thyroid does not work, increase your salt intake to lower PTH and increase protein (or the active T3 cannot be effective).

The skin change under the eyes is still worrying me, as the skin there literally looks like it has aged 10-20 years in the past week (and I work in the performing arts and cannot afford to look prematurely old). I'm puzzled as to what is actually going on, though. Because of the time frame it can't be due to a protein deficiency. Also, I've been eating "primal" for a year, so I'm not at all protein deficient. Clearly the progest-e did something to the skin, but I don't understand the mechanism.

It's very weird looking. There is a network of lines that weren't there before, and if I pull on the skin it's as if the top layer is crinkly and thin, but there is a sort of puffy soft layer underneath. So, when I said the skin looks thin, that is what I meant. Actually, if I don't move the skin at all and look straight at myself, then the skin change is not noticeable, because the actual thickness of the skin hasn't changed. Seriously, it is very strange, and at the moment very upsetting. I really hope it improves significantly.

*** I can understand that the skin change worries you but it doesn't have anything to do with the progesterone. Progesterone renews cells and is used to treat scars and wounds, vitamin E (progest-e-complex consists of 90% vitamin E complex oil) is cell-protective. Have you changed anything else? Anything at all? How much protein is enough for you?

When you have used progest-e for wound healing what does the skin look like as it is healing?

*** Yes, I have used progesterone for wound healing and I have seen it heal others. In burn wounds the skin becomes pink within hours (if you've never seen a fresh burn wound: Its so red it's nearly brown), then the pink fades slowly until perfect skin remains. The skin never looks like what you describe.
Neither vitamin E nor progesterone are exfoliating. Vitamin A can be in very high dosages (over 100.000 I.U. for a few weeks at least) and iodine. Otherwise it's usually acids that exfoliate.
Are you using fruit that's not ripe? Vegetables? Any plants which might cause this? It sound like an allergic reaction.

 

[peatarian]

I don't think it's really an issue in my experience.

My brother posted this on ray peat facebook group
"only affected 20% of patients taking large doses of calcium carbonate.

"Subjects were instructed to take 1200 mg/d of elemental calcium as calcium carbonate" " The in vitro study of T4 binding to calcium showed that adsorption of T4 to calcium carbonate occurs at acidic pH levels."
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.asp ... eid=192748

Calcium carbonate isn't even in milk.
"Milk calcium exists in bound and ionized forms. Bound calcium is associated both with casein micelles and complexed to citrate and phosphate."http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6302145"

Heather, I found this post by cliff. It makes sense that the supplement would interfere with thyroid pills. That's why I'd suggest you use egg or oyster shell powder for supplementing calcium.

 

[cocojay]

@Heather - I was wondering how you were going with your Progest-e supplementation? I ask because I started taking it myself five days ago, rubbing it into my gums - and have felt such an amazing difference (better sleep, calmer moods etc.), except my gums are really giving me troubles!

Are you still experiencing gum issues?

It seems to be getting worse - last night I was nearly in tears. I read on-line that progesterone causes increased blood flow to the gums, and that it increases the risk of certain bacteria taking hold in your mouth - I wonder if this is what is happening to me. It's so disappointing since I really want to keep taking it - sounds crazy, but maybe I should try rubbing the oil somewhere besides the mouth, like my temples perhaps?

For some background, I'm a 30 year old female who was on the pill for over 10 years, was told I had PCOS, so my guess is I've got some serious estrogen excess to overcome - which is why I've been dosing up on the Progest-e (3 drops 5 times a day).

Thanks!

 

[charlie]

cocojay, welcome to the forum.

I think you could put it inside your wrists like some of us do with the vitamin E and other supplements. Some people also do on the sides above the kidneys. Sometimes I put it on my wrist then rub my sides with my wrists. Ray Peat says that only 25% of it gets absorbed though.

Hopefully someone else will answer though with more info for you.

 

[cocojay]

Thanks Charlie, good to be here! :)

 

[Birdie]

cocojay, welcome to the forum.

I think you could put it inside your wrists like some of us do with the vitamin E and other supplements. Some people also do on the sides above the kidneys. Sometimes I put it on my wrist then rub my sides with my wrists. Ray Peat says that only 25% of it gets absorbed though.

Hopefully someone else will answer though with more info for you.

cocojay,
I think peatarian answered most of your questions, too!

Ray does advise rubbing progesterone into joints for pain and inflammation, but if you want to get it into your system, he advises drops on the tongue and lips and gums. Otherwise, it gets expensive to reach a reasonable dose.
But peatarian describes things better than I can,
so read her posts if you haven't.

Good luck. Takes time to adjust into all this.
I've just finished my first year, so can attest to that.
Thanks for reminding me to use my progest-e tonite!!!

 

[cocojay]

Thanks Birdie :). I'm definitely going to persist! I think my problem is that I have a wisdom tooth that's coming up, and it's only the gums around it that have started hurting and getting inflamed since I started the progesterone.

I know peatarian doesn't think there is a connection, but for the last three times now my gums have started to hurt almost immediately after rubbing the progesterone in my mouth. Though I have a bad (expensive feeling that the answer is going to be to get the tooth out, rather than stopping the progesterone.

 

[Spacehoppa]

Hi cocojay, are you sure you're not just experiencing the pain of a wisdom tooth coming through. I mean that can hurt quite a bit for quite a while. I remember mine did. I was glad when i found out that there was no corresponding wisdom tooth on the other side of my mouth. Why not see your dentist and ask whether this could be the source of the pain. I wouldn't recommend having the tooth out until it has fully come through, as the pain will probably settle down, and if you have it out you're creating a hole that bacteria could breed in. I agree with Paetarian on this one. I'm using hefty doses too, and so far no problem with my gums. In fact, I think they like it.

 

[nwo2012]

Swirling coconut oil around the mouth for 10-20 minutes twice daily is great for reducing gum inflammation.

 

[Birdie]

Swirling coconut oil around the mouth for 10-20 minutes twice daily is great for reducing gum inflammation.

This is good to know.

 

[Birdie]

I checked and cocojay last posted 28 Dec. Not sure she is here still.