Fat Is An Organ

[Kelj]

I am completely on board with the not restricting calories bit, and also meeting those minimum guidelines (which I will also be the first to say is actually probably still too low for many!).

I think the argument at this point is -- especially since you and others have gotten well following an unrestricted calorie approach is this:

Can you FULLY recover (lose body fat, feel good, etc) from only "junk" and "fast foods"? I don't think so. In my experience, junk foods make me feel like junk (surprise lol).

Every success story that has occurred ultimately involved healthy foods (typically in line with RP's principles). As far as I know, this includes you also, no @Kelj ?

Correct me if wrong but this is what I have been seeing here thus far::

Sure yourself and others start off eating junkier foods (which I think is the main reason extreme weight gain occurs, but I digress) but eventually after a ton of weight gain shift to better food choices at which point the weight is lost from what I've been reading. (surprise... not really)

A lot of the weight gain, I'm saying then, is needless suffering if better food choices are made from day 1. I just really really doubt anyone is making a fully recovery while continuing to eat fast foods for almost every meal if not every meal because that flies in the face of everything RP has researched not to mention 100% (not one exception) of people I know in real life who feel better replacing processed foods with organic/grass fed etc.. Let's not forget that Ray Peat himself does things like low-fat. I guess even he is eating disordered / orthorexic by all thsi logic. In fact, as far as I am aware, he even switched to hydrogenated coconut oil recently so he could drop his PUFA intake by a mere 0.5 gram a day or so.

Sure, I can possibly get on board with saying that enough calories from processed foods is superior to insufficient calories from healthier choices, what I'm arguing for is a one to one fair comparison - same calories, but comparing healthier choices vs. processed.

If you can point me to someone that has made a full recovery (INCLUDING losing the massive weight gain), and continues to maintain a LEAN weight while eating (with no restriction, no less):

Fast foods, pizza, hot dogs, processed cakes, processed cookies, microwave dinners, PUFA filled stuff, very high fat very high carb stuff, donuts, pretzels, grain fed meat, grain fed milk/eggs, iron fortified bread / bleached flour , pufa filled chips, processed sodas and basically just lots of processed foods.

If so, THEN I'll eat my hat and admit defeat on this debate! (But I'll still retain that recovery via "cleaner" foods is still likely better). Especially since I have 6 months of tracked data that I can plot to prove my points on this matter, like PUFA.

So even so, I'm still not convinced that eating lots of calories from healthier sources is not vastly superior, even if theoretically it can be done. It's just a lot of pain that is not necessary to go through. High pufa, super high starch, high phosphorus to calcium ratio, all of these things have been scientifically proven to worsen health, so you're just shooting yourself in the foot by eating very high calorie of these type of food choices. There is a reason livestock for example is fed PUFA and starch (grain) - it RELIABLY causes weight gain on less calories. Maybe you'll recover (and I still have my doubts on that) but it's no surprise that people are gaining over 100 lbs on such an approach.

Fat gain is always the response to matabolic suppression for our survival. We have purposely created those conditions, unless we've been through a period of real famine or poverty. No one is talking about eating only so-called junk food. Net energy matters when addressing an energy deficit as quickly as possible. Energy dense food, rationally, helps with that. I'm only talking about how people do, in real life, recover. I still do eat whatever I want. I have done, for some years and I became well and stay well. Never did I say to eat only a certain kind of food. Quite the opposite.
We can speculate all day long about whether eating this or that or not eating this or that can prevent the weight gain. Lots of people have tried recovery for various lengths of time still suppressing food intake and hanging onto their food fears. That never results in complete remission. Trying to prevent your fat organ from doing what is necessary to provide the hormones and enzymes it needs for recovery and wellness is going to backfire. It is how we began this thread, with an article which shows what our fat is doing for us to protect us. Again, the size of our fat organ is in proportion to how long and how much we have suppressed. No one is saying you have to eat anything you don't feel like eating. If you are completely well doing what you are doing, why would you stop doing it?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

I for one am more interested in quality of life than length of life. I'd actually prefer to live only 10 more years, if each day was 100% awesome, than live 100 or even 1000 more years of pain, depression, and otherwise some form of misery. That's just me though. Immortality wouldn't even interest me that much unless I could be assured of high quality life throughout it.

This. Anyone who has really suffered knows there are far worse things than death.

 

[Kelj]

Fortunately, we do not have such a stark decision to make. We can both, be well and live a long life. A year or two recovering from energy deficit is going to positively impact both.

 

[rei]

Just some examples touching on weight set point references in this article:

Obesity Basic Facts I — The Eating Disorder Institute

Camps, S. G., S. P. Verhoef, and K. R. Westerterp. "Leptin and energy restriction induced adaptations in resting energy expenditure and physical activity." How humans economize (2015): 79.

16. Schwartz, Michael W., Stephen C. Woods, Randy J. Seeley, Gregory S. Barsh, Denis G. Baskin, and Rudolph L. Leibel. "Is the energy homeostasis system inherently biased toward weight gain?." Diabetes 52, no. 2 (2003): 232-238.

17. Schwartz, Michael W., Stephen C. Woods, Daniel Porte, Randy J. Seeley, and Denis G. Baskin. "Central nervous system control of food intake." Nature 404, no. 6778 (2000): 661-671.

18. Mizuno, Tooru M., Hideo Makimura, and Charles V. Mobbs. "The physiological function of the agouti-related peptide gene: the control of weight and metabolic rate." Annals of medicine 35, no. 6 (2003): 425-433.

19. Garner, David M., and Susan C. Wooley. "Confronting the failure of behavioral and dietary treatments for obesity." Clinical Psychology Review 11, no. 6 (1991): 729-780.

20. French, Simone A., and Robert W. Jeffery. "Consequences of dieting to lose weight: effects on physical and mental health." Health Psychology 13, no. 3 (1994): 195.

21. Krowchuk, Daniel P., Shelley R. Kreiter, Charles R. Woods, Sara H. Sinal, and Robert H. DuRant. "Problem dieting behaviors among young adolescents." Archives of pediatrics & adolescent medicine 152, no. 9 (1998): 884-888.

22. Neumark-Sztainer, Dianne, Melanie Wall, Jia Guo, Mary Story, Jess Haines, and Marla Eisenberg. "Obesity, disordered eating, and eating disorders in a longitudinal study of adolescents: how do dieters fare 5 years later?." Journal of the American Dietetic Association 106, no. 4 (2006): 559-568.

23. Wing, Rena R., and James O. Hill. "Successful weight loss maintenance." Annual review of nutrition 21, no. 1 (2001): 323-341.

24. Anderson, James W., Elizabeth C. Konz, Robert C. Frederich, and Constance L. Wood. "Long-term weight-loss maintenance: a meta-analysis of US studies." The American journal of clinical nutrition 74, no. 5 (2001): 579-584.

25. Curioni, C. C., and P. M. Lourenco. "Long-term weight loss after diet and exercise: a systematic review." International journal of obesity 29, no. 10 (2005): 1168-1174.

26. Jeffery, Robert W., Leonard H. Epstein, G. Terence Wilson, Adam Drewnowski, Albert J. Stunkard, and Rena R. Wing. "Long-term maintenance of weight loss: current status." Health psychology 19, no. 1S (2000): 5.

27. Sjöström, Lars, Aila Rissanen, Teis Andersen, Mark Boldrin, Alain Golay, Hans PF Koppeschaar, Michel Krempf, and European Multicentre Orlistat Study Group. "Randomised placebo-controlled trial of orlistat for weight loss and prevention of weight regain in obese patients." The Lancet 352, no. 9123 (1998): 167-172.

28. Turk, Melanie Warziski, Kyeongra Yang, Marilyn Hravnak, Susan M. Sereika, Linda J. Ewing, and Lora E. Burke. "Randomized clinical trials of weight-loss maintenance: A review." The Journal of cardiovascular nursing 24, no. 1 (2009): 58.

29. Wadden, Thomas A., Leslie G. Womble, David B. Sarwer, Robert I. Berkowitz, Vicki L. Clark, and Gary D. Foster. "Great expectations:" I'm losing 25% of my weight no matter what you say"." Journal of consulting and clinical psychology 71, no. 6 (2003): 1084.

Of course, we are really talking about semantics and the image the word "burn" conjures up. Matter us not destroyed in a forest fire either, just transformed.

Your weight set point changes according to what circumstances you put yourself in. Your optimal weight changes with the environment.

Instead of forcing the weight off (caloric restriction) which is harmful, you must change your circumstances to such that the weight naturally falls off. Everything that goes into your body matters, both physically and psychologically.

How mainstream science can have this so wrong is completely astonishing, because anyone that has read RP can name at least one raw food that has tremendous metabolism enhancing effect, completely changing your set point.

 

[Cirion]

Fat gain is always the response to matabolic suppression for our survival. We have purposely created those conditions, unless we've been through a period of real famine or poverty. No one is talking about eating only so-called junk food. Net energy matters when addressing an energy deficit as quickly as possible. Energy dense food, rationally, helps with that. I'm only talking about how people do, in real life, recover. I still do eat whatever I want. I have done, for some years and I became well and stay well. Never did I say to eat only a certain kind of food. Quite the opposite.
We can speculate all day long about whether eating this or that or not eating this or that can prevent the weight gain. Lots of people have tried recovery for various lengths of time still suppressing food intake and hanging onto their food fears. That never results in complete remission. Trying to prevent your fat organ from doing what is necessary to provide the hormones and enzymes it needs for recovery and wellness is going to backfire. It is how we began this thread, with an article which shows what our fat is doing for us to protect us. Again, the size of our fat organ is in proportion to how long and how much we have suppressed. No one is saying you have to eat anything you don't feel like eating. If you are completely well doing what you are doing, why would you stop doing it?

Ok, fair enough. I think I have beat the dead horse enough. Lol. Still agree to disagree on many points, but I think getting people to eat more calories is definitely a good thing that I do agree on. I've seen many people here only eating 2-2.5k (men, at that) and wondering why they're stalled.

 

[mbachiu]

Ok, fair enough. I think I have beat the dead horse enough. Lol. Still agree to disagree on many points, but I think getting people to eat more calories is definitely a good thing that I do agree on. I've seen many people here only eating 2-2.5k (men, at that) and wondering why they're stalled.

Haha! I think if you’re looking to convert Kelj to your line of thinking, it’s probably not going to happen.

 

[Randle Cyclist]

I'm going to keep this brief but I went gung-ho with the edinstitute method a few years ago with only healthy foods. I mostly ate a bunch of fruit along with low fat milk, extra lean meat, and high quality Italian cheese on occasion. This was following 2 years of needless dieting in attempt to achieve the unattainable and immediately following a stint of a keto. Towards the end of the keto experiment I was gaining weight on 2300 calories.

So I started refeeding at 170lbs and within 6 weeks I was above my starting weight of 195lbs at 6' 1" while eating 3000 calories and lifting weights every other day. This was psychologically agonising. I'm not an anxious person but seeing the scale move that fast had me in a panic. I resorted to using dnp and stayed on it until I was back at my pre-refeeding weight. My weight remained stable going off dnp but maintaining the 3000 calories so perhaps it lowered my set point? Not that I'd ever recommend anyone trying it...

I'm telling y'all this because the edinstitute treatment can be dangerous to someone with an eating disorder if attempted outside of a treatment center. Following the recommendations literally causes the greatest fear of the patient to materialise. I think the bodybuilder reverse dieting method is a better way to go if one wants to try to recover on their own. I don't believe gaining a ton of weight in a short period of time and carrying that extra weight for a year is an experience necessary for complete recovery.

 

[Kelj]

I'm going to keep this brief but I went gung-ho with the edinstitute method a few years ago with only healthy foods. I mostly ate a bunch of fruit along with low fat milk, extra lean meat, and high quality Italian cheese on occasion. This was following 2 years of needless dieting in attempt to achieve the unattainable and immediately following a stint of a keto. Towards the end of the keto experiment I was gaining weight on 2300 calories.

So I started refeeding at 170lbs and within 6 weeks I was above my starting weight of 195lbs at 6' 1" while eating 3000 calories and lifting weights every other day. This was psychologically agonising. I'm not an anxious person but seeing the scale move that fast had me in a panic. I resorted to using dnp and stayed on it until I was back at my pre-refeeding weight. My weight remained stable going off dnp but maintaining the 3000 calories so perhaps it lowered my set point? Not that I'd ever recommend anyone trying it...

I'm telling y'all this because the edinstitute treatment can be dangerous to someone with an eating disorder if attempted outside of a treatment center. Following the recommendations literally causes the greatest fear of the patient to materialise. I think the bodybuilder reverse dieting method is a better way to go if one wants to try to recover on their own. I don't believe gaining a ton of weight in a short period of time and carrying that extra weight for a year is an experience necessary for complete recovery.

I would just ask, can you now eat any amount of calories and not gain weight? That is the mark of a recovered undereater. I can do just that.
You are right. It is confronting your worst fear. Someone with a phobia of flying must eventually fly, or they have not become psychologically well. The edinstitute constantly recommends working with a counselor.

 

[Blossom]

Fortunately, we do not have such a stark decision to make. We can both, be well and live a long life. A year or two recovering from energy deficit is going to positively impact both.

I thought Gwyneth updated her estimated time frame for recovery to as much as 7 years?

 

[Vinny]

I think the bodybuilder reverse dieting method is a better way to go if one wants to try to recover on their own.

Yes, it`s a very good way, but only if you have the energy to do it. Some of us are too screwed up and lack it. Trying bodybuilding multiple multiple multiple times over the years was one of the worst and most detrimental mistakes I ever did to my body. Consider yourself lucky it worked for you.

 

[Kelj]

I thought Gwyneth updated her estimated time frame for recovery to as much as 7 years?

She quotes one reference which says it is possible that it could extend to 72 months, depending on how you want to define remission.

 

[Blossom]

She quotes one reference which says it is possible that it could extend to 72 months, depending on how you want to define remission.

Thank you

 

[Randle Cyclist]

I would just ask, can you now eat any amount of calories and not gain weight? That is the mark of a recovered undereater. I can do just that.
You are right. It is confronting your worst fear. Someone with a phobia of flying must eventually fly, or they have not become psychologically well. The edinstitute constantly recommends working with a counselor.

I would like to think so but I find it very challenging to eat past satiety which happens to be around 3300 calories for me. After restricting for 2 years straight I cannot bare the thought of actively undereating again. Lately, I've been trying to gain weight (muscle) without any success so I guess I need to eat even more. I know the institute recommends counselling I just thought it needed reiteration since recovery is a journey through psychological hell.

Yes, it`s a very good way, but only if you have the energy to do it. Some of us are too screwed up and lack it. Trying bodybuilding multiple multiple multiple times over the years was one of the worst and most detrimental mistakes I ever did to my body. Consider yourself lucky it worked for you.

How exactly did bodybuilding harm you? I didn't have the energy to reverse diet either. My willpower was completely tapped out after dieting with no break for 2 years. If I could go back in time and do recovery differently I would have tried reverse dieting and forgone the dnp. But if I could time travel I would have gone back further and never dieted in the first place lol.

 

[Vinny]

How exactly did bodybuilding harm you?

I always crash after exercise, get sick and feel like cr*p. Never had whatever benefit from it except more suffering.
I red above that you aim to make muscle on 3300 cal. Man, based on what I`ve learned lately, I wouldn`t even try to lift the toilet seat on that much. IMO, 3300 is only to stay alive.... but you know better for yourself.

 

[Randle Cyclist]

I always crash after exercise, get sick and feel like cr*p. Never had whatever benefit from it except more suffering.
I red above that you aim to make muscle on 3300 cal. Man, based on what I`ve learned lately, I wouldn`t even try to lift the toilet seat on that much. IMO, 3300 is only to stay alive.... but you know better for yourself.

Hmm, my initial thought is that you were undereating or going overboard on the exercise or maybe a combination. 3300 is pretty arbitrary. I exceed it some days and fail to on others but I selected it because it's roughly the amount I gained on while staying lean the last time I was at my current weight. I'm going to increase it even though I currently feel good and energetic.

Didn't you gain a lot of weight alongside Ciron? I was really hoping y'all would turn out to be the next Billy Craigs. Fat gain is such a complicated subject and the calories in calories out model does not explain why fat storage gets out of hand. Sure, moderate fat increase can be the body's reaction to prolonged undereating and chronic stress but there must be a stimulus or a dysfunction somewhere that causes the excessive increases. It could be an issue with leptin, grehlin, cortisol, thyroid, mitochondria, hypothalamus, etc. It might stem from xenoestrogens and other endocrine disruptors, junk food engineered to be addictive, radiation, modern stressful lifestyles, you get the idea.

 

[Vinny]

Hmm, my initial thought is that you were undereating

This. My darkest suspicion is that I`ve been chronically underfed.

Didn't you gain a lot of weight alongside Ciron?

I did. I became obese this year, for the first time in my life.
Don`t know who Billy Cr is, therefore don`t get what yo mean, but if it has a connection to the the CICO theory, IMO this theory is a pathetic nonsense.

 

[Blossom]

This. My darkest suspicion is that I`ve been chronically underfed.



I did. I became obese this year, for the first time in my life.
Don`t know who Billy Cr is, therefore don`t get what yo mean, but if it has a connection to the the CICO theory, IMO this theory is a pathetic nonsense.

It is nonsense!

 

[Blossom]

While I do not agree with her 100% on everything she has done valuable work towards debunking CICO.

PHC Conference 2018 – Zoë Harcombe
“I have taken the calorie theory apart many times. An open post on the subject can be seen here (Ref 2). One pound does not even equal 3,500 calories. We will not lose 1lb if we create a deficit of 3,500 calories. We will not gain 1lb if we create a surplus of 3,500 calories. We have known this for at least 100 years (since the Benedict study). I headlined a few other studies throughout the history of weight loss literature to show that the formula has never held and never will (Ref 3). If anyone claims this to be true, simply ask them for one study that proves it.”

 

[Kelj]

This. My darkest suspicion is that I`ve been chronically underfed.



I did. I became obese this year, for the first time in my life.
Don`t know who Billy Cr is, therefore don`t get what yo mean, but if it has a connection to the the CICO theory, IMO this theory is a pathetic nonsense.

The No Diet Diet - Eating Yourself Slim & Healthy

Newsletter Issue 4 - 180 Degree Health

6,000 Calorie Weight Loss
By Billy Craig
www.billycraig.co.uk

"That’s the very same reason that I tracked myself eating 6000 calories a day for a year. So what did I eat during this pre-Paleo binge fest? Mainly carbs and most of the carbs were highly processed. A typical day would start with 1/2 a box of bran flakes and 2 litres of skimmed milk (pasteurised naturally as this was pre-WAPF). From there I’d eat toast with jam, cheese spreads, or anything else that was quick, easy, and simple to keep track of calorie consumption. In a day I could easily consume a whole loaf of bread. Once at work I’d make my way through an 8-pack of cinnamon and raisin bagels. Lunch would consist of something quick and easy, probably yet more toast with baked beans on it. By the time it came to my evening meal I usually had some sort of microwave meal followed by 3 or 4 cadbury chocolate desserts. Then comes the surprise’to most people–my 2am meal would be another huge bowl of some cereal or oatmeal.

So during this period I hadn’t heard of Peat, didn’t care about grass fed beef, and probably led a more carefree life than at any time during my WAPF years.

So the diet that got me super lean isn’t a diet. Yes it was super high in carbs, but that wasn’t by design. Do I eat that way now? Nah, but it was an enjoyable year."

 

[mbachiu]

The No Diet Diet - Eating Yourself Slim & Healthy

Newsletter Issue 4 - 180 Degree Health

6,000 Calorie Weight Loss
By Billy Craig
www.billycraig.co.uk

"That’s the very same reason that I tracked myself eating 6000 calories a day for a year. So what did I eat during this pre-Paleo binge fest? Mainly carbs and most of the carbs were highly processed. A typical day would start with 1/2 a box of bran flakes and 2 litres of skimmed milk (pasteurised naturally as this was pre-WAPF). From there I’d eat toast with jam, cheese spreads, or anything else that was quick, easy, and simple to keep track of calorie consumption. In a day I could easily consume a whole loaf of bread. Once at work I’d make my way through an 8-pack of cinnamon and raisin bagels. Lunch would consist of something quick and easy, probably yet more toast with baked beans on it. By the time it came to my evening meal I usually had some sort of microwave meal followed by 3 or 4 cadbury chocolate desserts. Then comes the surprise’to most people–my 2am meal would be another huge bowl of some cereal or oatmeal.

So during this period I hadn’t heard of Peat, didn’t care about grass fed beef, and probably led a more carefree life than at any time during my WAPF years.

So the diet that got me super lean isn’t a diet. Yes it was super high in carbs, but that wasn’t by design. Do I eat that way now? Nah, but it was an enjoyable year."

This is all pretty interesting to me. When I was 29 I lost a decent amount of weight (I’m 5’2” & went from 140 to 125) eating a high calorie diet. I was following the Eat Clean Diet that Tosca Reno advocates, after years of attempting to do WW. One thing I did actually like about that diet is that it didn’t advocate counting calories or macros, but just trying to have all three macros with meals & snacks. I think I likely ate close to about 3500 calories a day on that diet & lost all the weight in about a month, without even trying. The wheels starting falling off when I forayed into body building weight training & trying to run marathons.
I think there is something about convincing the body it isn’t starving as a way to take off weight. Unfortunately I’m in a much more compromised metabolic position at this point. So, I am gaining weight & it is going to be a long while before I’m able to convince my body I am not going to underfeed & overexercise it into oblivion. Thanks for sharing more about Billy Craig’s ‘experiment’