Fat Is An Organ

[Kelj]

What's in a Fat Cell? | Live Science

"In adulthood, the overall number of adipocytes stays stable, according to a 2008 paper in the journal Nature. Most weight loss and weight gain comes not from losing or gaining adipocytes, but from those cells expanding and shrinking as the energy inside is stored or burned. Adipocytes do gradually die off and get replaced, according to that study. The median turnover for fat cells is about 8.4 percent a year, with half of the fat cells in the body replaced every 8.3 years.

One of the biggest misconceptions about fat, according to Meerman, is that lost fat is literally burned off as energy.

"What really happens is that all of the atoms in fat combine with oxygen atoms to form carbon dioxide and water," he said. "Lots of energy is released by this process, but not one atom is destroyed or converted to energy."
The water from this process is excreted through urine, feces and sweat, Meerman reported in a 2014 British Medical Journal paper. The carbon dioxide is exhaled through your lungs, making your respiratory system your greatest fat-disposing tool."

 

[Herbie]

The bmi lacks sophistication because it doesn’t distinguish between muscle mass, subconscious fat or visceral fat.

High muscle mass and decent subconscious fat seems protective

 

[Kelj]

Even visceral fat is an important part of the body's proper functioning.

Belly Fat Has a Role to Play in Fighting Infections | The Scientist Magazine®

"deep belly fat known as visceral adipose tissue (VAT) also has a good side: it’s a critical component of the body’s immune system.

VAT is home to many cells of both the innate and adaptive immune systems. These cells influence adipocyte biology and metabolism, and in turn, adipocytes regulate the functions of the immune cells and provide energy for their activities. Moreover, the adipocytes themselves produce antimicrobial peptides, proinflammatory cytokines, and adipokines that together act to combat infection, modify the function of immune cells, and maintain metabolic homeostasis."

Now, notice how they speak negatively of chronic inflammation:

"Unfortunately, obesity disrupts both the endocrine and immune functions of VAT, thereby promoting inflammation and tissue damage that can lead to diabetes or inflammatory bowel disease."

Now, look at how inflammation is absolutely vital and is what is happening when you experience pain. Your body is healing:

Inflammation: Causes, Symptoms & Anti-Inflammatory Diet | Live Science

"Inflammation is a vital part of the immune system's response to injury and infection. It is the body's way of signaling the immune system to heal and repair damaged tissue, as well as defend itself against foreign invaders, such as viruses and bacteria.

During acute inflammation, chemicals known as cytokines are released by the damaged tissue. The cytokines act as "emergency signals" that bring in your body's immune cells, hormones and nutrients to fix the problem, Walker said.

In addition, hormone-like substances known as prostaglandins create blood clots to heal damaged tissue, and they also trigger pain and fever as part of the healing process. As the body heals, the acute inflammation gradually subsides.

Without inflammation as a physiological response, wounds would fester, and infections could become deadly."

The concern mentioned in the article on visceral fat mentioned inflammatory bowel disease as a supposed result of obesity, but is really just a factor seen in starvation. Starvation causes chronic inflammation, because the body is constantly trying to heal itself, but does not have enough energy to resolve every injury.

One example of chronic inflammation:

Malnutrition And Starvation Cause Inflamed Intestines

Malnutrition And Starvation Cause Inflamed Intestines (Title)

This is why in the edinstitute letter to doctors who treat eating disordered patients, it says:

Dear Doctor: Your patient has an eating disorder. — The Eating Disorder Institute

"Your patient’s complaints will likely include:
slow-to-heal injuries from workouts and distance running"

A direct result of chronic lack of energy which can only come from calories.

 

[Vinny]

One of the biggest misconceptions about fat, according to Meerman, is that lost fat is literally burned off as energy.

"What really happens is that all of the atoms in fat combine with oxygen atoms to form carbon dioxide and water," he said. "Lots of energy is released by this process, but not one atom is destroyed or converted to energy."
The water from this process is excreted through urine, feces and sweat, Meerman reported in a 2014 British Medical Journal paper. The carbon dioxide is exhaled through your lungs, making your respiratory system your greatest fat-disposing tool."

Does this, in simple words, mean that adipose tissue IS NOT an energy reservoir?

 

[skycop00]

I for one am more interested in quality of life than length of life. I'd actually prefer to live only 10 more years, if each day was 100% awesome, than live 100 or even 1000 more years of pain, depression, and otherwise some form of misery. That's just me though. Immortality wouldn't even interest me that much unless I could be assured of high quality life throughout it.

Could not agree more!!!!

 

[Kelj]

Does this, in simple words, mean that adipose tissue IS NOT an energy reservoir?

Not merely an energy reservoir. The process of combining with oxygen to create carbon dioxide and water does create energy, but burning isn't the right word to describe what's happening.

 

[taralynne]

It makes sense to me that undereating would cause an increase in cortisol as when I was eating much less in order to correct some health issues (cleaning up my diet & not eating "inflammatory foods") my belly kept getting bigger even though I had lost weight overall. It was my search to find out what was causing this excess cortisol that led me to Ray Peat. Aside from my large belly, many of my chronic health issues improved. My eczema cleared up, I could breathe consistently through my nose again, & back pain completely went away among other things. In an effort to decrease cortisol and belly fat, I started eating more to combat the stress hormones and I got fat. Not only did I regain the weight I had lost but now I weigh more than I ever have in my life. I have been reading many of your posts and have gone to the eating disorder website for more information but I have to say I find this to be somewhat confusing. I have intermittently been tracking calories and fat because I can't afford to gain more weight if even from just a practical point of view (every season I am buying new clothes because I can't fit into clothes from the season before- this has been going on since February of 2/2017 so I have been at this for a little while. This is expensive, overwhelming & depressing) When I take a break from tracking, I seem to continue to gain more weight and I wonder how is this possible? If the eating disorder institute is correct then how can I not yet be weight restored? How much of an increase is expected? I am up 3 sizes already & heading towards 4 which has to be more than 35 lbs. I haven't been on the scale because I am too afraid to see the number.

 

[CLASH]

@taralynne
Because the eating disorder institute isnt totally correct.

I dont think its possible to just eat your way to health. Eating enough calories is important, very important, but those calories have to come from the right food sources. What determines the correct food sources? Quite a few factors and one of those factors includes how your body interacts with those foods.

 

[Kelj]

Could not agree more!!!!

Symptom Questions — The Eating Disorder Institute

"It is normal to see an increase of 8-16 lbs. (3.6 to 7.3 kg) within days of starting to eat to the minimum guidelines every day. It is equally common to see 20-40 lbs. (9-18 kg) within 1-2 weeks.

The increase is almost entirely attributable to water retention and it is necessary for cellular repair. Somewhere in the 4-6 week range the water retention starts to dissipate. That does not mean you lose weight (you are not looking to lose weight), it means that the water starts to be replaced by real weight restoration.

It takes 18 months to recover although you will not likely gain weight throughout that entire time period. From the time at which you begin weight restoration to the time at which your body weight stabilizes, the average per week weight gain is around 1-2 lbs (0.5 to 1 kg).

It is not a linear process and some weeks will be more and some less.

You stop gaining when you reach your body's optimal weight set point while eating more than minimum intake (because hunger should take you beyond minimum intake). You should stop weighing yourself and focus on getting the energy in that you need instead because stepping on the scales usually precipitates a relapse.

You may also experience a lot of bloating after meals and, to you, your stomach or abdomen region will appear huge. Again, this lessens as the weeks progress and you get further along in recovery."

"Quasi-recovery is a term I invented to describe the situation when a patient is no longer actively trying to eat less, lose weight, reach a target shape of some sort but they continue to create sub-clinical levels of energy deficits every day in their bodies.

A patient in quasi-recovery will have reduced the frequency or stopped compensatory behaviors (purging, extreme exertion, laxative abuse etc. etc.). He or she will have also increased food intake. For many non-scientific treatment programs for eating disorders these attributes are actually considered a process of full recovery. The patient is able to restore weight and once that weight is within 85% to 90% of an expected weight, then the patient will be discharged often to an outpatient program to continue "maintaining" that state.

When a patient eats only what someone with no energy deficit will require (or less) it's possible to restore weight, but not to repair damage. Metabolism remains suppressed because there is not enough energy coming in to reverse the energy deficit within the body.

A woman under the age of 25 needs at least 3000 calories a day on average to maintain her weight

The longer that a patient stays at a quasi-recovered state, the more efficient the body will become at shutting down non-essential biological functions to try to minimize the amount of catabolism (destroying cells to release energy into the blood stream) that has to occur to try to make up the energy deficit. Everybody's metabolic efficiency varies, but it is not unusual for a patient (after 20 years in a quasi-recovered state) to find herself gaining weight while eating 1200 calories a day. That is not a sign that she needs to cut back on her energy intake, but rather she needs to up her intake to allow her body to take the brakes off of all the biological functions that have had to be suppressed to keep going under energy deficit circumstances.

Fat is the largest hormone producing organ in the body. It is not a storage unit. Under stress (energy deficits are stressful to our body) stress hormones are released and while they have value for short-term survival, they cause damage when they flow more persistently and over months and years. That your fat organ gets larger when you are under stress. Your fat organ is having to get larger to produce more hormones to maintain some balance within a skewed metabolic state in the body.

For a body to maintain its natural optimal weight set point it has to be at its optimal metabolic state as well. For a patient with an eating disorder, to arrive at that state he or she has to take all the clamps off of eating and rest so that body can not just restore weight, but can actually heal and return to an optimal run rate as well.

"Quasi-recovery" is a comparatively better state to be in for the body than active restriction. However, physical damage is ongoing and still accumulating unless and until a patient decides to provide enough energy to reverse damage and return to an optimal state."

If you are over 25, never less than 2500 calories. It is by taking the clamps off your eating and eating considerably more than that every single day that will cause the weight to stabilize and then go down again, if weight is truly an overshoot.

 

[Kelj]

Please be aware that if you are not eating above the minimum for your height, age and gender every single day, resting as much as possible, and eliminating all food avoidance like avoiding so-called inflammatory food, then you are not following Homeodynamic Recovery Guideline methods and cannot claim that it does not work. All three factors must be completely adhered to. The practice of eating disorder recovery involves approaching and eating food. Eating disorder is an anxiety disorder. If you're anxious about approaching and eating food, then the probability is high that you are still restricting.

 

[CLASH]

Please be aware that if you are not eating above the minimum for your height, age and gender every single day, resting as much as possible, and eliminating all food avoidance like avoiding so-called inflammatory food, then you are not following Homeodynamic Recovery Guideline methods and cannot claim that it does not work. All three factors must be completely adhered to. The practice of eating disorder recovery involves approaching and eating food. Eating disorder is an anxiety disorder. If you're anxious about approaching and eating food, then the probability is high that you are still restricting.

Perhaps restriction is there for a reason.
Perhaps certain foods are indeed inflammatory.
Perhaps certain foods induce anxiety lol...

 

[Kelj]

There are some papers quoted in the thread above which show the repair process of the body involves inflammation. The recovery process can be acute and relatively short when we stop restricting and go all in. Or the recovery can be prolonged when we are still restricting and anxious about foods. The inflammation will be chronic in this restrictive eating sphere. That's why we see so many of the chronic conditions related to inflammation in our populations. So many eat in a flat out restricted fashion or a restrictive/reactive way.

 

[CLASH]

@Kelj
I'm on board with eating enough calories but I highly doubt going all in is healthy. I'm sure recovering from a degree of starvation requires uncomfortable changes and inflammation along the highly process. However, I'm also sure that there are many foods that are highly problematic and inherently inflammatory and not actually food.

I think restriction of these certain foods is a neccesity, especially in recovery.

"That's why we see so many of the chronic conditions related to inflammation in our populations."

I think this statement is patently false in context. I dont think this eating disorder theory is complete, only a valuable portion of whats actually going on.

 

[Kelj]

Please read this article @taralynne. I used to think the same way about food, but am now completely well and weight restored. It is going to be difficult, therefore, to convince me and those who have also been successful that our road to recovery was false.

Orthorexia Nervosa I: Women Laughing Alone with Salad — The Eating Disorder Institute

Orthorexia II: Doubt and Certainty — The Eating Disorder Institute

 

[taralynne]

@taralynne
Because the eating disorder institute isnt totally correct.

I dont think its possible to just eat your way to health. Eating enough calories is important, very important, but those calories have to come from the right food sources. What determines the correct food sources? Quite a few factors and one of those factors includes how your body interacts with those foods.

I am definitely trying not to undereat anymore and mostly eat food that I think overall is good for me... minimally processed whole foods, hopefully that makes a difference. Have definitely made progress health wise...hopefully will continue to get better without gaining too much more weight....

 

[taralynne]

Please be aware that if you are not eating above the minimum for your height, age and gender every single day, resting as much as possible, and eliminating all food avoidance like avoiding so-called inflammatory food, then you are not following Homeodynamic Recovery Guideline methods and cannot claim that it does not work. All three factors must be completely adhered to. The practice of eating disorder recovery involves approaching and eating food. Eating disorder is an anxiety disorder. If you're anxious about approaching and eating food, then the probability is high that you are still restricting.

Thank you for the links to the articles which I have read and found to be informative but did not answer all of my questions. I am definitely eating over the minimum every single day and have been doing so for a while. Some health issues have improved and some seem to have resolved completely. If I knew for sure I was at my top weight then I think I could handle this better but the possibility of gaining even more weight is honestly frightening. It sounds like from one of your posts that someone could gain up to 40lbs within the first couple of weeks and then continue to gain 1-2lbs per week for an undetermined amount of time which means there could be no end in sight any time soon. One of the things that does not make sense to me though is how does one get fat to begin with based on this school of thought? The only reason I ever restricted in the first place was due to being overweight and having health issues which seemed to be a result of eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. Eating that way to begin with certainly did not make me healthy or keep me at a decent weight and I don't necessarily mean "thin", just average so how would eating everything & anything now restore my health?

 

[Kelj]

Thank you for the links to the articles which I have read and found to be informative but did not answer all of my questions. I am definitely eating over the minimum every single day and have been doing so for a while. Some health issues have improved and some seem to have resolved completely. If I knew for sure I was at my top weight then I think I could handle this better but the possibility of gaining even more weight is honestly frightening. It sounds like from one of your posts that someone could gain up to 40lbs within the first couple of weeks and then continue to gain 1-2lbs per week for an undetermined amount of time which means there could be no end in sight any time soon. One of the things that does not make sense to me though is how does one get fat to begin with based on this school of thought? The only reason I ever restricted in the first place was due to being overweight and having health issues which seemed to be a result of eating whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. Eating that way to begin with certainly did not make me healthy or keep me at a decent weight and I don't necessarily mean "thin", just average so how would eating everything & anything now restore my health?

I can't know the nitty-gritty details of how you have eaten for years, I can only tell you what I have learned in the countless conversations I have had with others, all of whom have told me they eat too much and none, upon investigation, have eaten enough. This is what they have been doing:
Skipping breakfast, lunch or dinner or any combination of the two. Going on various facts for various lengths of time or daily intermittent fasting. Cutting sugar. Cutting gluten without having test-confirmed celiac disease. Eating low-fat. Never eating desserts. Eating from a small plate so it looks like more. Putting their fork down between bites. Chewing each bite 30 times. Burning off calories by exercising. Going for a jog before breakfast. Eating a lot of muscle meat like a sumo wrestler or linebacker. Eating lots of salads with low-fat dressing. Eating meat without carbohydrate. Cutting out major food groups in an effort to ameliorate symptoms which precipitate other symptoms, leading to more food groups being cut to ameliorate the new symptoms until the diet is very limited, avoiding "highly palatable" food (because God knows we shouldn't enjoy eating!), substituting constituent parts of food for whole food (supplements), constant "cleansing" of the liver, bowel, colon, etc. instead of eating enough to distend the stomach to keep paristalsis going, eating until 75% full (a nebulous idea), using various "meal replacement" liquids, going so long between meals their stomach starts growling and they feel light-headed, waiting for dinner even though they are hungry much earlier, saving their appetite for a special meal that night or eating light one day because they went to the all-you-can-eat buffet the night before, passing on the bread basket, frequently going without at a restaurant or fast-food place because that's where their friends want to eat, but they've made rules about food consumption that don't allow them to enjoy those places. Making a cut-off time in the evening beyond which they won't eat. Convincing themselves that they're really just thirsty when they wake up in the middle of the night thinking about cheeseburgers. These are a few of the ways almost everyone I know restricts calories.
You can consider yourself having begun to practice recovery the very first day you counted your calories and they were over 3000, and you counted your calories every day thereafter to ensure you were not slipping back under the minimum. Also, the minimum is not a recovery amount, but rather, a stay the same amount. The energy deficit, just like a sleep deficit, must be addressed by eating considerably more than the minimum.
The surest way to know you are eating enough is, you begin to lose weight if your recovery has taken you over your set point weight, which is a number you do not know. You will stop losing weight when you reach that set point weight. You will be able to eat any amount of calories you desire without gaining weight. The weight gain period, which is really a lot of edema and some fat, is typically 8 months to a year, though you usually stop gaining weight before that and just stay there until @ about 8-12 months it starts coming down, if someone is dedicated to refeeding. If you are having any cravings for foods, view these as indications your body is giving you about what to eat.
I know this is a frustrating period. I've been there. Anxiety is what having an eating disorder is all about. A#1 anxiety these days is about becoming fat. That is why the Eating Disorder Institute strongly advises seeking counseling to help you approach and eat food without anxiety. That is why I shared some science in this thread to help us start respecting the health protective fat organ, which grows larger only because it has to. But there is something we can do about it. It's just that it's the opposite thing than the thing we've been doing.

 

[Cirion]

I am completely on board with the not restricting calories bit, and also meeting those minimum guidelines (which I will also be the first to say is actually probably still too low for many!).

I think the argument at this point is -- especially since you and others have gotten well following an unrestricted calorie approach is this:

Can you FULLY recover (lose body fat, feel good, etc) from only "junk" and "fast foods"? I don't think so. In my experience, junk foods make me feel like junk (surprise lol).

Every success story that has occurred ultimately involved healthy foods (typically in line with RP's principles). As far as I know, this includes you also, no @Kelj ?

Correct me if wrong but this is what I have been seeing here thus far::

Sure yourself and others start off eating junkier foods (which I think is the main reason extreme weight gain occurs, but I digress) but eventually after a ton of weight gain shift to better food choices at which point the weight is lost from what I've been reading. (surprise... not really)

A lot of the weight gain, I'm saying then, is needless suffering if better food choices are made from day 1. I just really really doubt anyone is making a fully recovery while continuing to eat fast foods for almost every meal if not every meal because that flies in the face of everything RP has researched not to mention 100% (not one exception) of people I know in real life who feel better replacing processed foods with organic/grass fed etc.. Let's not forget that Ray Peat himself does things like low-fat. I guess even he is eating disordered / orthorexic by all thsi logic. In fact, as far as I am aware, he even switched to hydrogenated coconut oil recently so he could drop his PUFA intake by a mere 0.5 gram a day or so.

Sure, I can possibly get on board with saying that enough calories from processed foods is superior to insufficient calories from healthier choices, what I'm arguing for is a one to one fair comparison - same calories, but comparing healthier choices vs. processed.

If you can point me to someone that has made a full recovery (INCLUDING losing the massive weight gain), and continues to maintain a LEAN weight while eating (with no restriction, no less):

Fast foods, pizza, hot dogs, processed cakes, processed cookies, microwave dinners, PUFA filled stuff, very high fat very high carb stuff, donuts, pretzels, grain fed meat, grain fed milk/eggs, iron fortified bread / bleached flour , pufa filled chips, processed sodas and basically just lots of processed foods.

If so, THEN I'll eat my hat and admit defeat on this debate! (But I'll still retain that recovery via "cleaner" foods is still likely better). Especially since I have 6 months of tracked data that I can plot to prove my points on this matter, like PUFA.

So even so, I'm still not convinced that eating lots of calories from healthier sources is not vastly superior, even if theoretically it can be done. It's just a lot of pain that is not necessary to go through. High pufa, super high starch, high phosphorus to calcium ratio, all of these things have been scientifically proven to worsen health, so you're just shooting yourself in the foot by eating very high calorie of these type of food choices. There is a reason livestock for example is fed PUFA and starch (grain) - it RELIABLY causes weight gain on less calories. Maybe you'll recover (and I still have my doubts on that) but it's no surprise that people are gaining over 100 lbs on such an approach.

 

[rei]

How curious that when the whole population is becoming overweight and obese it is suddenly healthy to be so. Since i saw no cited studies and ignorant things like:

Can You Change Your Optimal Weight Set Point?
No.

I don't give much credibility to such a site.

Not merely an energy reservoir. The process of combining with oxygen to create carbon dioxide and water does create energy, but burning isn't the right word to describe what's happening.

Why? Because that process is almost exactly what burning is defined as.

 

[Kelj]

How curious that when the whole population is becoming overweight and obese it is suddenly healthy to be so. Since i saw no cited studies and ignorant things like:



I don't give much credibility to such a site.



Why? Because that process is almost exactly what burning is defined as.

Just some examples touching on weight set point references in this article:

Obesity Basic Facts I — The Eating Disorder Institute

Camps, S. G., S. P. Verhoef, and K. R. Westerterp. "Leptin and energy restriction induced adaptations in resting energy expenditure and physical activity." How humans economize (2015): 79.

16. Schwartz, Michael W., Stephen C. Woods, Randy J. Seeley, Gregory S. Barsh, Denis G. Baskin, and Rudolph L. Leibel. "Is the energy homeostasis system inherently biased toward weight gain?." Diabetes 52, no. 2 (2003): 232-238.

17. Schwartz, Michael W., Stephen C. Woods, Daniel Porte, Randy J. Seeley, and Denis G. Baskin. "Central nervous system control of food intake." Nature 404, no. 6778 (2000): 661-671.

18. Mizuno, Tooru M., Hideo Makimura, and Charles V. Mobbs. "The physiological function of the agouti-related peptide gene: the control of weight and metabolic rate." Annals of medicine 35, no. 6 (2003): 425-433.

19. Garner, David M., and Susan C. Wooley. "Confronting the failure of behavioral and dietary treatments for obesity." Clinical Psychology Review 11, no. 6 (1991): 729-780.

20. French, Simone A., and Robert W. Jeffery. "Consequences of dieting to lose weight: effects on physical and mental health." Health Psychology 13, no. 3 (1994): 195.

21. Krowchuk, Daniel P., Shelley R. Kreiter, Charles R. Woods, Sara H. Sinal, and Robert H. DuRant. "Problem dieting behaviors among young adolescents." Archives of pediatrics & adolescent medicine 152, no. 9 (1998): 884-888.

22. Neumark-Sztainer, Dianne, Melanie Wall, Jia Guo, Mary Story, Jess Haines, and Marla Eisenberg. "Obesity, disordered eating, and eating disorders in a longitudinal study of adolescents: how do dieters fare 5 years later?." Journal of the American Dietetic Association 106, no. 4 (2006): 559-568.

23. Wing, Rena R., and James O. Hill. "Successful weight loss maintenance." Annual review of nutrition 21, no. 1 (2001): 323-341.

24. Anderson, James W., Elizabeth C. Konz, Robert C. Frederich, and Constance L. Wood. "Long-term weight-loss maintenance: a meta-analysis of US studies." The American journal of clinical nutrition 74, no. 5 (2001): 579-584.

25. Curioni, C. C., and P. M. Lourenco. "Long-term weight loss after diet and exercise: a systematic review." International journal of obesity 29, no. 10 (2005): 1168-1174.

26. Jeffery, Robert W., Leonard H. Epstein, G. Terence Wilson, Adam Drewnowski, Albert J. Stunkard, and Rena R. Wing. "Long-term maintenance of weight loss: current status." Health psychology 19, no. 1S (2000): 5.

27. Sjöström, Lars, Aila Rissanen, Teis Andersen, Mark Boldrin, Alain Golay, Hans PF Koppeschaar, Michel Krempf, and European Multicentre Orlistat Study Group. "Randomised placebo-controlled trial of orlistat for weight loss and prevention of weight regain in obese patients." The Lancet 352, no. 9123 (1998): 167-172.

28. Turk, Melanie Warziski, Kyeongra Yang, Marilyn Hravnak, Susan M. Sereika, Linda J. Ewing, and Lora E. Burke. "Randomized clinical trials of weight-loss maintenance: A review." The Journal of cardiovascular nursing 24, no. 1 (2009): 58.

29. Wadden, Thomas A., Leslie G. Womble, David B. Sarwer, Robert I. Berkowitz, Vicki L. Clark, and Gary D. Foster. "Great expectations:" I'm losing 25% of my weight no matter what you say"." Journal of consulting and clinical psychology 71, no. 6 (2003): 1084.

Of course, we are really talking about semantics and the image the word "burn" conjures up. Matter us not destroyed in a forest fire either, just transformed.