Fasting / Dieting Leads To Obesity

haidut

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In direct contradiction to outfits like Weight Watchers, Warrior Diet, etc this study shows that chronic dieting and calorie restriction leads to obesity. Most of these "expert" protocols talk about "leptin sensitization". As the study points out, elevated leptin is actually one of the major culprits, which validates Ray's views on it being a stress promoter and potentially a carcinogen as well.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0098276

"...Furthermore, we found that specifically leptin, a major metabolic hormone, played a major role in the development of these pathological disorders. Our study indicated the importance of regular eating habits besides controlling calorie intake."
 
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That is kind of their point, they advocate the need for minimal amounts of leptin and insulin alike.
 

haidut

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Such_Saturation said:
That is kind of their point, they advocate the need for minimal amounts of leptin and insulin alike.

As far as advocating minimal leptin/insulin - you mean the people behind the study or organizations like WW?
 
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This is pretty interesting. I also think stress may be one of the biggest factors in obesity, as stress is all about insufficient energy.

I have always had problems with obesity since I was young. A year and a half ago I got a WIFI scale which tracks my weight, and found something surprising.

My weight is dead stable eating as much as I want normally, but during short stressful events my weight climbs rapidly, and remains at this higher level afterwards.

I think short duration mental stress had been the cause of my obesity problems.

Yes, I was overeating calories during those times but only because it relieved the stress. Not overeating would have been even more harmful, as the stress hormones continue to spiral out of control until a large meal is consumed.

I think if people overeat without the stress they build a combination of muscle, and whole body subcutaneous fat but not visceral fat. People who gain weight without stress look healthy and still maintain a narrow waist. I've seen young guys during a relaxing tropical vacation put on 30lbs while still having a visible six pack. In fact, all of the "european backpackers" as well as buddhist monks I've met who live nearly zero stress lifestyles eat tons of food but have narrow waists.
 
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haidut said:
Such_Saturation said:
That is kind of their point, they advocate the need for minimal amounts of leptin and insulin alike.

As far as advocating minimal leptin/insulin - you mean the people behind the study or organizations like WW?

For example Lustig and Asprey insist on keeping leptin sensitivity high. I think they say you get fat with fructose because it makes you leptin resistant.
 
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If you're leptin sensitive, you'll have lower rather than higher leptin levels. This paper shows that higher leptin levels (i.e. less sensitive) are a key indicator of metabolic syndrome, but this isn't that surprising as high leptin is basically just an indicator of obesity.

I've never understood Ray's view on Leptin where he says "Leptin promotes inflammation and cancer, so it might be good to be resistant to it." I can't find anywhere where he explains his reasoning for this, only this mention in an e-mail correspondence.

If a person is resistant to leptin, they will have higher serum leptin levels and higher body fat levels, and still about the same amount of leptin induced signaling in the brain. There are several different mechanisms of leptin resistance that work different ways. For example, a high food reward diet causes the hypothalamus to ignore the leptin signal. High serum triglycerides block leptin transport across the blood brain barrier, so your hypothalamus cannot detect the leptin signal and believes you are underweight.

If leptin resistance is "good" then are processed junk food, massively high triglyceride levels, high stress, or lack of sleep good? Those are the key processes that lead to leptin resistance, and leptin resistance always co-occurs with obesity unless the person is in a constant state of severe hunger.
 
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Probably their idolization if the ice age leads them to think that we should always be starving and be super sensitive to satiety and have hard limits to calories. Anyway I can see why Ray Peat would say that given that leptin can destroy pancreatic cells and cause vascularization, that vitamin E inhibits leptin release, and given scary paper titles such as "Leptin as a proinflammatory cytokine", "Estrogen deficiency causes central leptin insensitivity".
 
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I was trying to say that in this one case Lustig might be correct (cringe, I know)- if high leptin is harmful, better leptin sensitivity would maintain lower leptin levels.
 
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But doesn't that also apply to insulin?
 
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I'd think with any hormone signal involved in a negative feedback regulatory system, higher sensitivity will result in lower levels.
 

tara

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Does this analogy work?
To develop your muscles, work them.
To develop sun protection, expose skin to the sun.
To develop your brain, learn something new.
To develop callouses, run barefoot and brachiate (my new word for the month)
To develop your fuel storage capacity, diet or fast.

Use it or lose it.
If you never use your muscles, they waste.
In winter, the skin pales.
Office workers get soft hands.
If you never go short of food, and you never have more stress than you have energy for, does your excess adipose tissue melt away?
 

superhuman

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Hmm interesting but i guess i need a little more proof. But in terms of regular eating etc you will still be obese or gain weight if you eat to much :p but maybe the hormones and all that will prevent overeating from happening.
Would be great with more information on the subject since esp fasting is SUPER popular these days
 

tara

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I think it might be a bit simplistic, and vary from person depending on our health state and history. I didn't mean it to sound like it would make every one thin. There does seem to be some evidence that dieting causes fat gain. The reverse seems less reliable.

You've heard Billy Craig's story? He systematically increased his calories to 6000, drove his metabolism up, got very hot (temp) and lean, and people kept telling him to eat more. He doesn't recommend it to anyone - I gather it was quite unpleasant - reckons 4000 would be more suitable. I don't necessarily think everyone would get the same results. He had to leave his gym trainer job because his boss didn't like the way he kept telling people to eat more and exercise less.
 

Peata

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This appears true for me. I chronically dieted over 2011. First really low carb and then a lot of intermittent fasting. I stayed pretty low calorie in 2012 with stints of mostly raw, perricone, lowish carb... come 2013 I more or less coasted through beginning Peat stuff by remaining 5 - 7# above the weight I needed to be but it didn't become a problem until 2014 when the weight started piling on, after increase of sugars. My body has been unable to handle that since then. I had also gone through intense stress for a couple of months or more, so that didn't help.
 
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Parsifal

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Isn't leptin needed to deiodonidase t4 into T3 though?

Someone posted on the FB group:

"Leptin influences both secretion of thyroid hormones by the thyroid gland(indirectly) as well as peripheral metabolism(the majority of both circulating and intracellular T3 is produced by enzymatic outer ring deiodination of T4 rather than direct glandular secretion). Leptin has dramatic effects on both type 1 and 2 deiodinase. "
 
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marikay

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You've heard Billy Craig's story? He systematically increased his calories to 6000, drove his metabolism up, got very hot (temp) and lean, and people kept telling him to eat more. He doesn't recommend it to anyone - I gather it was quite unpleasant - reckons 4000 would be more suitable. I don't necessarily think everyone would get the same results. He had to leave his gym trainer job because his boss didn't like the way he kept telling people to eat more and exercise less.

Oh how I wish I had run into Billy Craig (or someone like hime) telling me to eat more and exercise less. It would have saved me a lot of pain and trouble.:)
 
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