Fairwell To Milk

[Blossom]

View attachment 12051
Probably for the best.

Even chocolate milk?

 

[Sugar Bun]

Chocolate milk suffers from internalized white supremacy. That makes it a victim of the oppressive white supremacist patriarchal structure. So I guess that means it's okay.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Goodbye Milk
We had a run
We gave it a shot
We had some fun

But you hurt me
Kept giving me bloat
Made my anxiety rise
Made my pits smell like goats hide

So I will get my nutrition
Through other fruitions
Don’t try and petition
I will not listen

Perhaps I’ll crush some egg shells
Or boil fish gills
To get all the calcium
To make my skeletil

Strong as a rock
Hard as a block
Secure as a lock
Sharp as a hawk

And it makes me sad
That my body wouldn’t had
The nutrition from other
Animal udders

But I think I shall be stronger
My mind a little smarter
Without all the bloat
From the milk of cows and goats

Bite my tounge
For all I’ve said
In proposition for
The dairy hordes

But I will not slander
If you choose to gander
At that delectable drink
From the organ that’s pink

Goodbye milk

Haha, good way to say goodbye to milk. It doesn't agree with me either at this moment.​

Where do you obtain adequate levels of calcium ( at least 1000 mg a day, preferably 2000)?
I am trying a no-dairy experiment myself, but am supplementing with calcium carbonate along my meals of white rice + meat, or potatoes + meat.


I noticed a very pronounced lethargic, depressed feeling after not consuming any calcium for a few days while only eating meat + starch. Consuming calcium carbonate made me feel fine again, it seems like calcium is important to keep prolactin down and dopamine up.

It's interesting that you meantion those feelings, because about 3 months ago, I was shifting my sleep routine( I was waking up at about 3 in the afternoon and going to sleep at about 7 o'clock in the morning and wanted to fix this) and I decided to shorten the day and eat just gelatin with melon juice and my regular supplements( B vitamins, taurine etc.) and then go to sleep earlier. I was supplementing calcium, but what I hadn't noticed is that, without meat, my phosphorous intake was really low. I remember that I went bed and I felt a pretty intense sadness and also insomnia. Might have been the extremely low tryptophane as well. I was going to experiment with calcium phosphate instead of calcium citrate, but although bulksupplements has it with a really good price, the shipping is insanely expensive for me. Might just buy some phosphoric acid and mix it with calcium carbonate. I say this because I've been thinking that, for those who don't drink milk, it's harder to get the same amount of phosphorous as you were getting before. I eat 500 grams of lean beef per day and that is just 900 mg of phosphorous.

 

[Sugar Bun]

Pfft. Just checked. 600mg calcium per 2 cups. You're missing out. Maybe you could ingest it rectally and not have to quit after all?

 

[Jennifer]

I know this has been the case for others who regularly get bloodwork done as well, but without adequate high quality calcium, my PTH and TSH and prolactin always (and I literally mean 'always') move up. Without enough calcium and Vitamin D, this is always the case with me. I personally wouldn't want to rely on calcium supplementation because I kind of doubt the long term safety of them. I think food sources of calcium that come with phosphate and other co-factors are safest. The only good sources of calcium I'd try that are outside of dairy are from bone or eggshell. I need to get at least 2000mg of calcium per day to keep my prolactin as low as possible. I could get by with 1500mg, but PTH and prolactin isn't the lowest when I do that.

I've had the opposite experience. I get regular bloodwork — until this year it had been every 6 weeks for a decade — and my elevated PTH didn't come down until I stopped Peating (standard high dairy approach) and went fruitarian. My PTH also became elevated when I was put on a WAPF style diet (high in raw dairy) after I fractured and then again while Peating — my TSH averages below .90 but rose to almost 4. After my cholesterol rose to 210 while Peating, I was put on NDT and my TSH finally came back down, but then my cholesterol dropped too low and despite reducing my dose to 1/4 grain a day, it wouldn't budge so I had to get off the NDT. I'm allergic to dairy so that may of played a role.

 

[Sugar Bun]

Does anyone ever consider race being a factor? I don't recall Ray talking about it much, but I may have missed something. Is there any sense of biochemical individuality or are we working towards a Universally Preferable Diet (TM)?

 

[michael94]

I took my sisters amoxicillin pills yesterday and today nd started wanting milk again, and lower fat milk even !

 

[michael94]

but I also ate some pifa rich foods beforehand , as a full disclosure

stuft clams and harvest cheddar sun chips

 

[Runenight201]

From an evolutionary perspective, we’ve had to have been able to obtain all our calcium without dairy. Either calcium needs are much lower than what’s dictated or Paleolithic man must of had a high calcium dietary source.

Banking on the theory of us evolving and moving along the coasts and deriving our nutrition from the sea, I believe that we would of obtained the majority of our calcium through sea food, either through the consumption of fresh fish (which would have ca ions still pumping through their muscles), consumption of fish bones (perhaps in a stew, where the bones become disintegrated and the calcium entered into the water), or through shellfish (clam and shrimp have around 90mg of calcium per 100g serving). I think a combination of the 3 are most likely, and I think a proper dairy free diet would include shellfish and fish stew consumed regularly, and perhaps a calcium supplement on days when that’s not possible.

Coconut water also has quite the amount of calcium, around 100mg per cup, along with a lot potassium and magnesium (it’s just kind of an awesome drink) and so I think if one were to consume shellfish, fish stew, coconut water, high calcium fruits, and perhaps take a supplement of 500mg egg shell per day to ensure robustness, there is no need to worry about calcium.

I see dairy as a useful adaptation for those who were no longer able to use the sea as a dietary resource, but in my case I’m not sure if it produces better health than relying on other means. Perhaps if I’m substantially “recovered” and I’ve got my diet perfected to a t, then some room may be made for small amounts of raw goat milk, but for right now it’s not a direction I want to head in.

Also coconut milk + maple syrup is awesome and makes my skin feel so soft I highly recommend coconuts they’re a great addition to the diet.

@Vinero, the depression may be due to a high starch diet and not due to lack of calcium. I won’t completely say I’m done with starch, but as of late I’ve noticed that it just cannot match the energy that fruit and sugar can give me, and I have been drastically consuming far less of it than previously. The thing is, many different fruits have to be consumed, because solely consuming oranges and orange juice becomes problematic imo. I wish watermelons weren’t so expensive, as I consistently crave it but can’t afford them right now

 

[Vinero]

From an evolutionary perspective, we’ve had to have been able to obtain all our calcium without dairy. Either calcium needs are much lower than what’s dictated or Paleolithic man must of had a high calcium dietary source.

Banking on the theory of us evolving and moving along the coasts and deriving our nutrition from the sea, I believe that we would of obtained the majority of our calcium through sea food, either through the consumption of fresh fish (which would have ca ions still pumping through their muscles), consumption of fish bones (perhaps in a stew, where the bones become disintegrated and the calcium entered into the water), or through shellfish (clam and shrimp have around 90mg of calcium per 100g serving). I think a combination of the 3 are most likely, and I think a proper dairy free diet would include shellfish and fish stew consumed regularly, and perhaps a calcium supplement on days when that’s not possible.

Coconut water also has quite the amount of calcium, around 100mg per cup, along with a lot potassium and magnesium (it’s just kind of an awesome drink) and so I think if one were to consume shellfish, fish stew, coconut water, high calcium fruits, and perhaps take a supplement of 500mg egg shell per day to ensure robustness, there is no need to worry about calcium.

I see dairy as a useful adaptation for those who were no longer able to use the sea as a dietary resource, but in my case I’m not sure if it produces better health than relying on other means. Perhaps if I’m substantially “recovered” and I’ve got my diet perfected to a t, then some room may be made for small amounts of raw goat milk, but for right now it’s not a direction I want to head in.

Also coconut milk + maple syrup is awesome and makes my skin feel so soft I highly recommend coconuts they’re a great addition to the diet.

@Vinero, the depression may be due to a high starch diet and not due to lack of calcium. I won’t completely say I’m done with starch, but as of late I’ve noticed that it just cannot match the energy that fruit and sugar can give me, and I have been drastically consuming far less of it than previously. The thing is, many different fruits have to be consumed, because solely consuming oranges and orange juice becomes problematic imo. I wish watermelons weren’t so expensive, as I consistently crave it but can’t afford them right now

I agree sugar is important for energy. I am not eating high-starch and zero-sugar. Rather, I am eating high-starch + moderate amounts of fruit juice. This seems to work best for me. I doubt depression is related to starch, as I can relieve my depression quickly by consuming extra calcium carbonate.

 

[lampofred]

Excess estrogen/glutamate = less conversion of tryptophan to NAD and increased conversion of tryptophan to serotonin
+
Milk = optimal food when hormones are in great condition but leads to excess serotonin because of high tryptophan content if NAD production is low due to low GABA, low progesterone and high estrogen
=
Increasing gelatin intake because of its nil tryptophan content to lower the ratio of tryptophan to other amino acids might help one to better tolerate milk

 

[milk_lover]

Excess estrogen/glutamate = less conversion of tryptophan to NAD and increased conversion of tryptophan to serotonin
+
Milk = optimal food when hormones are in great condition but leads to excess serotonin because of high tryptophan content if NAD production is low due to low GABA, low progesterone and high estrogen
=
Increasing gelatin intake because of its nil tryptophan content to lower the ratio of tryptophan to other amino acids might help one to better tolerate milk

What about taking niacinamide with milk to increase NAD and oppose/deactivate estrogen? Would that approach help with milk digestion?

 

[Waremu]

I've had the opposite experience. I get regular bloodwork — until this year it had been every 6 weeks for a decade — and my elevated PTH didn't come down until I stopped Peating (standard high dairy approach) and went fruitarian. My PTH also became elevated when I was put on a WAPF style diet (high in raw dairy) after I fractured and then again while Peating — my TSH averages below .90 but rose to almost 4. After my cholesterol rose to 210 while Peating, I was put on NDT and my TSH finally came back down, but then my cholesterol dropped too low and despite reducing my dose to 1/4 grain a day, it wouldn't budge so I had to get off the NDT. I'm allergic to dairy so that may of played a role.

Perhaps the fructose helped bring down your PTH, but I’d be interested in seeing what your other markers were as well (prolactin, etc.). For most people I’ve seen, including myself, cutting out the calcium and protein caused a rise in those stress hormones. Most people seem to not handle NDT on here either. NDT made me feel horrible. Did fruitarianism years ago and that had its own problems and obvious deficiencies (zinc, protein, etc.).

 

[Waremu]

I came from a background when I was very intolerant to dairy. Was vegan for a while for that reason and a few others. There is evidence that suggests dairy intolerance isn’t so much genetic, but gut related. It seems that bacteria in the intestines interfere with lactose digestion. At least one or two studies I have seen seem to suggest that. Peat believes this as well. After finding that out, and seeing that cleaning out the gut helped Danny Roddy tolerate milk, my goal was to cut out all meat and eat carrot salads two times per day and only had yogurt for my dairy, juice a lot, take activates charcaoal 2-3 times per week in large doses and move taking flowers of sulfur as well and an anti-biotic if needed.

This is the only thing that will reverse milk intolerance for me. Peat recommends flower of sulfur and starch avoidance for those who do not tolerate milk because bacteria interfere with digestion of milk. It is usually a sign you have a bacterial overgrowth in the small intestines if you cannot handle milk, in my opinion and Rays as well. I have now been tolerating and drinking milk with no issue. Flowers of sulfur really helped knock it out. I was determined to make milk work because that’s the only thing I can really have (skim and 1% milk) when I decided to go very very low PUFA.

One interesting thing to note even is that most little kids handle dairy with no problem, which seems to make sense because they have faster metabolisms on average than adults and have much less bacteria overgrowth than adults do. It is usually not until they enter adulthood, after years of poor diet and bacteria in the gut growing, that they usually have milk issues. This seems to agree with Peats view on it as well.

 

[Runenight201]

I came from a background when I was very intolerant to dairy. Was vegan for a while for that reason and a few others. There is evidence that suggests dairy intolerance isn’t so much genetic, but gut related. It seems that bacteria in the intestines interfere with lactose digestion. At least one or two studies I have seen seem to suggest that. Peat believes this as well. After finding that out, and seeing that cleaning out the gut helped Danny Roddy tolerate milk, my goal was to cut out all meat and eat carrot salads two times per day and only had yogurt for my dairy, juice a lot, take activates charcaoal 2-3 times per week in large doses and move taking flowers of sulfur as well and an anti-biotic if needed.

This is the only thing that will reverse milk intolerance for me. Peat recommends flower of sulfur and starch avoidance for those who do not tolerate milk because bacteria interfere with digestion of milk. It is usually a sign you have a bacterial overgrowth in the small intestines if you cannot handle milk, in my opinion and Rays as well. I have now been tolerating and drinking milk with no issue. Flowers of sulfur really helped knock it out. I was determined to make milk work because that’s the only thing I can really have (skim and 1% milk) when I decided to go very very low PUFA.

One interesting thing to not even is that most little kids handle dairy with no problem, which seems to make sense because they have faster metabolisms on average than adults and have much less bacteria overgrowth than adults do. It is usually not until become enter adulthood after years but of poor diet and bacteria in the gut growing that they usually have milk issues. This seems to agree with Peats view on it as well.

I actually may agree, although I have yet to test it out. It is quite apparent to me that I have subpar digestion and I’m often bloated. When I’m bloated and I attempt to shove more milk in, it results in problems. And I’ve now realized that I bloat to a large number of foods, including some fruits. Right now I’ve fasted for about 14 hours and my gut feels relatively clean, and I do feel as if I could maybe handle some milk right now.

The fasting was not by choice, but because I knew the only thing my body would tolerate is very fatty meat, but I was so low energy and depressed that I didn’t even want to get out of bed and go to the store to secure those resources. I’ve had a little bit of coconut water and oj and feel a tad better. Too much sugar in this state though will definitely cause problems, so I’m proceeding with caution. I may have a glass of milk right now to assess this theory.

My focus now, and perhaps everyone with digestive and bloat issues, is to eat foods that don’t cause bloat, and slowly work towards repairing the gut so that it can handle inappropriate foods more often. I think a diet higher in saturated fat and bone broth are both conducive towards that end goal, and will be heading that way. Bone broth is kind of annoying to make, but I’ve felt the craving for it so many times that I know if I do it correctly that it will improve my health. @noordinary talked about it improving his health in another thread, and I know last night I craved a nice bowl of bone broth but didn’t have it prepared, which led to my subpar sleep and inadvertant fast. What’s interesting is that my top choice food in that state was bone broth, but I couldn’t access it, and thus I had insomnia as I didn’t know how to find balance and was just fasting at that point. I had half a beer, and it honestly wasn’t a bad second choice, as it gave a nice warming sensation in my gut, calming it down and allowing me to sleep. The intoxication was also pleasant, and it made me realize that my gut really is the source of all my problems. Happy gut, happy person in my opinion.

 

[lampofred]

What about taking niacinamide with milk to increase NAD and oppose/deactivate estrogen? Would that approach help with milk digestion?

I'm not sure if that would help because I've heard it's not NAD itself that lowers tryptophan, it's the process by which NAD is created that uses up tryptophan.

But what should help to decrease tryptophan is increasing CO2 production by breathing less and by taking thyroid hormone.

 

[Jennifer]

Perhaps the fructose helped bring down your PTH, but I’d be interested in seeing what your other markers were as well (prolactin, etc.). For most people I’ve seen, including myself, cutting out the calcium and protein caused a rise in those stress hormones. Most people seem to not handle NDT on here either. NDT made me feel horrible. Did fruitarianism years ago and that had its own problems and obvious deficiencies (zinc, protein, etc.).

Yeah, I'm not sure because I've always consumed a lot of fructose, except when I was put on the WAPF diet for a year after I fractured — this was almost 10 years ago. When I dropped the dairy and other animal protein, my hormones came into balance and my progesterone went way up, to the point that I was finally able to have a menstrual cycle without the use of high amounts of Progest-E. I was intolerant to dairy even as a baby — was formula fed — and was so constipated on it that by 3 weeks old I had developed a hernia from trying to push that needed operating on.

But yes, I agree that fruitarianism has its own problems. I was following the diet to heal because after coming off dairy, fruit was all I could tolerate. I was tested for lactose intolerance and it came back negative, but tested positive for a dairy allergy. I tried all the things you did, was even in contact with Ray and followed what he advised me to do, but it only made things worse. Ray says that a dairy allergy is rare and so I thought chances were slim that I had one and continued trying to make dairy work (a total of 7 years) and had so much damage to undo because of it.

 

[tomisonbottom]

I came from a background when I was very intolerant to dairy. Was vegan for a while for that reason and a few others. There is evidence that suggests dairy intolerance isn’t so much genetic, but gut related. It seems that bacteria in the intestines interfere with lactose digestion. At least one or two studies I have seen seem to suggest that. Peat believes this as well. After finding that out, and seeing that cleaning out the gut helped Danny Roddy tolerate milk, my goal was to cut out all meat and eat carrot salads two times per day and only had yogurt for my dairy, juice a lot, take activates charcaoal 2-3 times per week in large doses and move taking flowers of sulfur as well and an anti-biotic if needed.

This is the only thing that will reverse milk intolerance for me. Peat recommends flower of sulfur and starch avoidance for those who do not tolerate milk because bacteria interfere with digestion of milk. It is usually a sign you have a bacterial overgrowth in the small intestines if you cannot handle milk, in my opinion and Rays as well. I have now been tolerating and drinking milk with no issue. Flowers of sulfur really helped knock it out. I was determined to make milk work because that’s the only thing I can really have (skim and 1% milk) when I decided to go very very low PUFA.

One interesting thing to note even is that most little kids handle dairy with no problem, which seems to make sense because they have faster metabolisms on average than adults and have much less bacteria overgrowth than adults do. It is usually not until they enter adulthood, after years of poor diet and bacteria in the gut growing, that they usually have milk issues. This seems to agree with Peats view on it as well.

How much flowers of sulphur did you do and for how long that with the antiobiotic till you could do milk again?

 

[Runenight201]

Update:

I was wrong. But through my many errors and failed experiments I have reached new peaks of health.

For the past week I’ve completely cut out meat, and I have made wheat my starch staple. Refined pasta with butter digests perfectly, and goats milk with coffee and a heap of sugar/maple syrup gives me ecstasy like no other drug.

I no longer feel inflamed, which has been my biggest problem since my teenage years. I am warm, all the time, and my hair/skin/eyes all look very nice :) my cystic acne (which is made most pronounced from white rice and meat) is gooone.

Who knows if I’ll go back to meat, but for now, my animal nutrition is in the form of eggs and goats milk. Goats milk i handle fine with either coffee and sugar or cocoa and sugar. On its own it bloats. Eggs I add into a refined pasta with tomato sauce and butter. I’ll eat white bread with butter as a little pick me up.

I like to keep my moods up in between meals with an apple juice + mango smoothie or an apple juice + mixed berries smoothie. Sometimes I’ll have orange juice as well, and sometimes cola or ginger ale.

I don’t drink much milk, maybe 2-3 cups a day. I have around 6 eggs a day. Rest is wheat, butter, fruit, and sugar.

I foresee myself getting extremely lean eating this way. My mother who I haven’t seen in a week has commented on my weight loss. Asked if I’ve been dieting. Of course I just tell her I’m very careful about what I put into my body. Caloric restriction is for suckers tho. I listen to cravings and give my body what it wants.

Happy peating :) the answer is in the food we eat, it affects everything we are, from the thoughts we have, dreams, aspirations, desire, ability to adapt, overcome, drive, and work. I may mess around with different drugs to see how I can perhaps shift different conscious states, but from a strictly recreational standpoint, and not from a need to improve health. I think I’ve got that health thing figured out now =P

 

[lvysaur]

View attachment 12051
Probably for the best.

Because nothing says "white supremacist" like admitting your lactase inferiority to a bunch of Pakistanis, Arabs, and East Africans :^)

But then I guess they're the real Aryans, so...

When I eat cheese or take a calcium supplement I immediately feel better.

I feel this pretty much solely with milk. I've noticed that cheese, regardless of type, is neutral at best, and harmful at worst. I'm beginning to think that my good reaction to milk comes from lactose, rather than from anything else.

Similar stuff was written in journals from the 1800s: that lactose abolishes putrefactive (proteinaceous) gut fermentation.