Facial Symmetry

[Runenight201]

Personally I would recommending more jaw development, get the square jaw chad look.

Overrated, but if that’s what fulfills one in life than that’s their own prerogative. I’m of the opinion that health and energy optimization, along with continued learning and development brings far more fulfillment than any amount of “looksmaxing”. I think if one minimizes inflammation and maximizes energy, than the resultant exuberance of health will be more than enough to attract many people.

 

[baccheion]

Overrated, but if that’s what fulfills one in life than that’s their own prerogative. I’m of the opinion that health and energy optimization, along with continued learning and development brings far more fulfillment than any amount of “looksmaxing”. I think if one minimizes inflammation and maximizes energy, than the resultant exuberance of health will be more than enough to attract many people.

Are you INTP?

I agree. Tongue action and health(y glow) are the main things when it comes to attracting women and being attractive. Then fitness, dressing, grooming, etc.

With better health comes higher/normalized testosterone/DHT/androgens. And HGH, which also increases mood. Etc.

 

[Runenight201]

Are you INTP?

I agree. Tongue action and health(y glow) are the main things when it comes to attracting women and being attractive. Then fitness, dressing, grooming, etc.

With better health comes higher/normalized testosterone/DHT/androgens. And HGH, which also increases mood. Etc.

Well done. I was either INTP or INTJ, I can’t exactly remember.

I have quite the boyish look, which used to get me down, but when I’m healthy, I’ve got the full head of groomed hair, bright eyes, and clear skin, and people, adult, child, male or female, are very friendly and warm towards me. I become intensely curious about ideas and creating new things, and life is a true pleasure. People interest me and their lives, thoughts, passions, etc...

Health is everything. Let the DNA sort out looks. I maximize my health, and let my resultant physiological and psychological expressions take me where they will.

I think it’d be better to be ugly and truly healthy than beautiful and sick, although usually healthy people are beautiful in their own unique ways.

 

[DrJ]

I notice I get a similar thing when I sleep on one side too much. It's good to switch it up. Sleeping on your back I suspect is best, but it requires you to have a good nose-breathing situation and not be a mouth breather. If Ray has ever written on sleep position I would be curious to know about it.

 

[Runenight201]

I notice I get a similar thing when I sleep on one side too much. It's good to switch it up. Sleeping on your back I suspect is best, but it requires you to have a good nose-breathing situation and not be a mouth breather. If Ray has ever written on sleep position I would be curious to know about it.

Buteyko practitioners would disagree. They believe sleeping on the stomach is healthiest because it constrains the expansion of the lungs, which results in less oxygen flux and higher bodily CO2 levels. Sleeping on one’s back allows for maximal lung expansion and therefore lower CO2 levels.

Sleep position is interesting. As a kid I slept on my stomach. Through much discomfort, I changed to sleeping on my back because I thought it was healthier. I now sleep on my side. Time to investigate what the natural sleeping position is for most humans. I read one study where in primitive cultures without beds they sleep in most different positions than we’d ever be accustomed too. I still want to experiment with different sleeping positions. I can’t imagine we evolved sleeping on our backs. I’d imagine we slept propped up against a tree or branch. Buteyko claims that sleeping sitting up is the healthiest, and their masters only require 2-3 hours of sleep a night because of their extremely good health X.x

Instinctive sleeping and resting postures: an anthropological and zoological approach to treatment of low back and joint pain

Found the primitive sleeping study from an anthropological perspective. I like anthropology. It tells us a lot about our species history, and gives different perspectives on why we behave the way we do today. For a fascinating dive into the origin of our beliefs in gods, I recommend David Talbots Discourses on an Alien Sky on YouTube.

 

[ShotTrue]

Well done. I was either INTP or INTJ, I can’t exactly remember.

I have quite the boyish look, which used to get me down, but when I’m healthy, I’ve got the full head of groomed hair, bright eyes, and clear skin, and people, adult, child, male or female, are very friendly and warm towards me. I become intensely curious about ideas and creating new things, and life is a true pleasure. People interest me and their lives, thoughts, passions, etc...

Health is everything. Let the DNA sort out looks. I maximize my health, and let my resultant physiological and psychological expressions take me where they will.

I think it’d be better to be ugly and truly healthy than beautiful and sick, although usually healthy people are beautiful in their own unique ways.

Frankly I love when people shoot themsevles in the foot. A square jaw is an andogenic expression, my jaw definitely got more square over time thru weight training, and I will make it a lot more so when I increase test, etc. You really haven't maximized a male's health if your jaw isn't square....

 

[baccheion]

Frankly I love when people shoot themsevles in the foot. A square jaw is an andogenic expression, my jaw definitely got more square over time thru weight training, and I will make it a lot more so when I increase test, etc. You really haven't maximized a male's health if your jaw isn't square....

How old are you? I wonder how old you can be and still get squaring? I'm 33 now, so I don't think much about it. Unless I'm wrong?

 

[ShotTrue]

I totally agree health remains supreme, but you could feel great but be unattractive and unless you live in front a computer all day looks are very improtant. I think a lot of introverts spend time on forums like these, and just want to pretend looks aren;t... I studied social psychology and I'm an ENTP and I can say looks are like crednetials except for your social life, anybody saying anything is weak/denialist. I don't say this to obsess on looks , when your healthy a lot of it will take care of yourse;f and to me it has become a boring topic.
HOWEVER, it's quite ironic if made a thread about facial symmetry but then go into "oh no I let my health determine my looks and it's not worth my time trying to be more attractive" ...
I also think it's dumb to try to , how would you say, "make up for things" but say spitting game is more important than face. Just like height being a prerequisitie, your face is as well and if you are handsome it often doesn't matter how you talk
Okay, enough life lessons for the denialists

 

[ShotTrue]

How old are you? I wonder how old you can be and still get squaring? I'm 33 now, so I don't think much about it. Unless I'm wrong?

I'm not sure it should matter the age, there aren't growth plates in the jaw. OF course, I guess younger it's more malleable and the longer you have it the longer it stays.
I'll be honest over years of weighttraining in my teens and 20s it got better, then I did test and oxandrolone for a few months and my jaw got quite square and women liked my face even more. Then my hormones got all messed up and my jaw was worse than before the steroids (over a 1-2 year period of bad health).
I don't think I can recommend synethic androgens, but consistent weight training, peaking natural androgens, and increasing natural hgh,igf-1 should all help
Milk + weight training
Eliminating pufas/inflammation. More ideas: Going outdoors, engaging in physical violence

 

[Runenight201]

I totally agree health remains supreme, but you could feel great but be unattractive and unless you live in front a computer all day looks are very improtant. I think a lot of introverts spend time on forums like these, and just want to pretend looks aren;t... I studied social psychology and I'm an ENTP and I can say looks are like crednetials except for your social life, anybody saying anything is weak/denialist. I don't say this to obsess on looks , when your healthy a lot of it will take care of yourse;f and to me it has become a boring topic.
HOWEVER, it's quite ironic if made a thread about facial symmetry but then go into "oh no I let my health determine my looks and it's not worth my time trying to be more attractive" ...
I also think it's dumb to try to , how would you say, "make up for things" but say spitting game is more important than face. Just like height being a prerequisitie, your face is as well and if you are handsome it often doesn't matter how you talk
Okay, enough life lessons for the denialists

Facial symmetry is a sign of good health. When I’m healthy I have a very symmetrical face. Being healthy produces good looks, because you’ll have good hair, skin, eyes, etc... However, focusing only on looks detracts from the awareness of other markers of health.

Many of the greatest people in our history were not the most flattering of people, but their skills in writing, speech, engineering, art, decision making, etc... got them much further than looks. If you’re healthy, your foot will be in the door, no matter what the ultimate hard coded physiological expression is.

 

[baccheion]

I totally agree health remains supreme, but you could feel great but be unattractive and unless you live in front a computer all day looks are very improtant. I think a lot of introverts spend time on forums like these, and just want to pretend looks aren;t... I studied social psychology and I'm an ENTP and I can say looks are like crednetials except for your social life, anybody saying anything is weak/denialist. I don't say this to obsess on looks , when your healthy a lot of it will take care of yourse;f and to me it has become a boring topic.
HOWEVER, it's quite ironic if made a thread about facial symmetry but then go into "oh no I let my health determine my looks and it's not worth my time trying to be more attractive" ...
I also think it's dumb to try to , how would you say, "make up for things" but say spitting game is more important than face. Just like height being a prerequisitie, your face is as well and if you are handsome it often doesn't matter how you talk
Okay, enough life lessons for the denialists

Extroverts seem to end up with higher attractiveness ratings on average. Maybe it's due to their external focus and paying more attention to aesthetics.

What else is a man to do in order to improve aesthetics? There's health, hormone levels, and body fat percentage (8-14%; 12% with enough proportioned muscle to have ribs not poke out). And maybe dressing and grooming. Mostly applies to attracting women, so beyond that it's mainly about tongue action anyway with enough attractiveness for it to not get in the way.

 

[baccheion]

I'm not sure it should matter the age, there aren't growth plates in the jaw. OF course, I guess younger it's more malleable and the longer you have it the longer it stays.
I'll be honest over years of weighttraining in my teens and 20s it got better, then I did test and oxandrolone for a few months and my jaw got quite square and women liked my face even more. Then my hormones got all messed up and my jaw was worse than before the steroids (over a 1-2 year period of bad health).
I don't think I can recommend synethic androgens, but consistent weight training, peaking natural androgens, and increasing natural hgh,igf-1 should all help
Milk + weight training
Eliminating pufas/inflammation. More ideas: Going outdoors, engaging in physical violence

What about ramus length? Do you have any pictures/evidence of these changes?

After embarking on a weak attempt to increase testosterone, it ended up near the bottom of the range. Heh. Still not sure why.

 

[rei]

see a chiropractor or get full body massage or both. If the spine is not aligned it will reflect in face and make the face not aligned, making the eyes look un even or nose, can be from nerves not functioning properly due to spinal mis-alignment, partially blocking nerve supply to those areas. Different muscles being tight will pull the spine out of alignment.

6 months ago i would have laughed at this comment, but now i can vouch for this from experience. My only visible feature was slight nasal dyssymmetry especially when looking up the nostrils the middle cartilage. But surprisingly many things changed in addition to this from 6 months of chiropractic yoga.

 

[baccheion]

6 months ago i would have laughed at this comment, but now i can vouch for this from experience. My only visible feature was slight nasal dyssymmetry especially when looking up the nostrils the middle cartilage. But surprisingly many things changed in addition to this from 6 months of chiropractic yoga.

Any before/after pics?

 

[rei]

Any before/after pics?

No, the issue was so slight only my girlfriend had ever even commented on it after looking up my nostrils while laying on my stomach/chest. The only selfies i ever took were general documentation of the fat i had when i became fed up with being overweight and decided something is going to change. Little did i know where it would lead...

 

[ShotTrue]

.

 

[ShotTrue]

What about ramus length? Do you have any pictures/evidence of these changes?

After embarking on a weak attempt to increase testosterone, it ended up near the bottom of the range. Heh. Still not sure why.

I'm not sure if rammus length changed, I would have to get back to you but probably.
To be honest I never tried to increase testosterone, though I will in the future. All I did was creatine on and off, increasingly eating more food (which allows more protein, micronutrients,etc) while weightraining. I did crossfit, oly lifting, bbing, rock climbing, hiking.
Really it was the weight training that progessively helped my jawline I think. As @olive weighttraining and not serum levels of hormones alter hormone receptors and how the body uses the hormones. My test was originally 600, but my jaw was quite square and I had dht, dopamine, looked athletic (really muscular legs but kind of lacking upperbody wise).
Avoiding synethic or imbalancing otpions, I'd recommend making whole milk a staple of the diet, and progessive intelligent weight training, with general supps of creatine, taurine, vit D and mk4. Taurine really boosted gym performance so I imagine it would help my jaw grow, and creatine increases dht and test and gym performance, and you don't need to cycle it.

 

[Runenight201]

Yeah I understand that. I get tired of people caring so much about looks myself, and it clearly isn't everything. Btw I have heard multiple times that symmetry is based on how healthy the immune system is, I believe that was from psychology but I didn't hear anything about why that was thought.
I do think it has its perks focusing on appearance just from benefits from good appearance, not to mention looks are linked to health so someone without a square jaw might be lower on testosterone and that's the indicator, someone with bad skin not enough vitamins, etc
Nathan Hatch actually said looks are linked to health, when he was in poor health he had hairloss, teeth were crooked and cramming together, less attractive skin and constant flabby stomach, and when he learned Peat and other health principles his flaws started to reverse and disappear, his hairloss stopped and revered, his teeth stopped jamming together, he got abs while being well fed, his skin glowed.
The last time I talked to a user about getting a wider jaw @Prosper he got really upset and defenesive even though he was constantly whining about it on the forum and how he got nor esults from vitamin K, even though he didn't lift weights which is what made my jaw wider.... I'm only 5'10 I don't act like a baby and pretend like being handsome makes up for being shorter, they are two different advantages/disadvantages. This is honestly why I hate helping people: 1. Ignorant 2. Too weak to acknoledge weakness or work on it. 3. It makes me look better and I compete better if they don't
So if everyman had a weak jawline except me I would have a distinct advantage...
I'm seeing a huge mental deficit if youre saying symmetrical face is some form of being healthy but then denying the jaw line is a sign of something... actually you just never had a strong jawline thats why you;re in denial

You’re smack dab average height in America. For what it’s worth I have a friend who’s 5’3” and has gotten with very attractive girls. Dating a cutie rn. I react negatively to the whole height/jawline thing because there’s clearly people who are very successful without it, but many people believe it’s everything, and then they stop developing themselves and get depressed and do nothing with their lives.

But I guess I’m of the opinion that bone structure is more difficult to change then other tissues like hair and skin. Perhaps it’s possible, but hair/skin/eyes all immediately change to good health, in a matter of a day, whereas I’m not if the same can be said with height and jaw line. Certainly going from a puffy face to a leaner look is beneficial, but to actually widen the jaw? Idk, but if it’s possible than sure, just not something I’m too interested in.

I’m not in denial of anything, I accept what I can’t change, change what I can, and try and develop wisdom to know the difference.

 

[ShotTrue]

You’re smack dab average height in America. For what it’s worth I have a friend who’s 5’3” and has gotten with very attractive girls. Dating a cutie rn. I react negatively to the whole height/jawline thing because there’s clearly people who are very successful without it, but many people believe it’s everything, and then they stop developing themselves and get depressed and do nothing with their lives.

But I guess I’m of the opinion that bone structure is more difficult to change then other tissues like hair and skin. Perhaps it’s possible, but hair/skin/eyes all immediately change to good health, in a matter of a day, whereas I’m not if the same can be said with height and jaw line. Certainly going from a puffy face to a leaner look is beneficial, but to actually widen the jaw? Idk, but if it’s possible than sure, just not something I’m too interested in.

I’m not in denial of anything, I accept what I can’t change, change what I can, and try and develop wisdom to know the difference.

lol I deleted my response as I was a little too irritable but that's alright
It's basically an economic/social fact height impacts a lot of things, why I could hook up with hot girls at 5'1 even freshman year in high school (albeit rarely), I get a lot more respect and less "bullying" I hate to say at 5'10, I started college at 5'6 where I could really hook up almost with my choice of women. Height for me barely has anything to do with women but more on a true social/fiscal impact, and when I played sports its hard to compete with 6'3 people.
Sorry, I can see some people go to into looksmaxx. I'm not from lookism and I never learned about it until like a year ago and that was from hairloss forums or health forums.
As of yet besides some mk4 for like a week I never tried for a wider jaw on purpose.
My poiint of view is this, max out everything I can because I can. If I could ahve dimples, or just a really wide jaw, a full head of hair, 6'4 that's what I'll go for. And I don't say that it is artifically keeping me from getting what I want
Certainly you don't need these things, Jeff Bezos is bald at 5'7 and never athletic. Donald Trump has small hands and uses finasteride

My point I guess was a wider jaw, and more lower jaw expression I figured would have a more aesthetic effect and an area of improvement for you, if you wanted to vs simply a small change in symmetry. In my experience you are viewed more confident, and more masculine and specifically more attractive by women.
There is even a psychological aspect to the jawline I imagine, physiology and psychology being connected.

Note: your jaw isn't even 'bad', and your teeth seem uncrowded

 

[Cirion]

I'm going to throw my own metaphorical hand grenade in the mix and also say that looks matter almost nothing either to women or socially in the long run.

Find me any extremely healthy, confident man that struggles either financially or with women. I doubt you'll manage to find a single one. Even the ugliest male midget, if he has built his metabolic health and financial intelligence, will succeed more in life than the 6'6" ripped male struggling with depression/metabolic disorders and has no handle on his finances etc.

NOW, that said, if you compare two people with the exact level of confidence and financial intelligence, and one is more "physically attractive" than the other... then yes... the "physically attractive" person quite possibly will win out a little. But I agree with rune that in the end, fixing metabolic health and overall confidence is the most important thing to do by far.

TL;DR according to the 80/20 rule, 80% of life benefits come from optimizing your hormones and finances, and only 20% of life benefits come from worrying about physical attractiveness (especially/particularly aspects that you can't change like height).