Extremely negative reaction to beta carotene?

[mostlylurking]

Not seeing any vitamin A deficiency symptoms like night blindness, dry eyes, xerophthalmia etc.

I think you are arguing against something I am not saying.

You appear to be saying that one can assume that the vitamin A levels are adequate in people who are orange (from beta carotene). I am trying to show you that hypothyroid people become orange (from beta carotene) because they cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A. If the conversion is blocked due to hypothyroidism the orange color of the skin does NOT give any reassurance that there is enough vitamin A; all the orange color shows is that there is an over abundance of beta carotene.

Here is a video (set to start at the pertinent part) that explains; please watch, it's less than a minute long:


View: https://youtu.be/DuCcAwKnA7Y?t=650

 

[Tarmander]

You appear to be saying that one can assume that the vitamin A levels are adequate in people who are orange (from beta carotene). I am trying to show you that hypothyroid people become orange (from beta carotene) because they cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A. If the conversion is blocked due to hypothyroidism the orange color of the skin does NOT give any reassurance that there is enough vitamin A; all the orange color shows is that there is an over abundance of beta carotene.

Ahh, I think if you reread my first post, you would see the confusion. I am not saying that vitamin A levels are adequate in people who have orange skin color, as I think "adequate" is a word we could argue over. See a couple posts back.

I am saying that people who are orange do not need more vitamin A in their diet as they are unlikely to be deficient(need)...meaning they will have no vitamin A deficiency symptoms. So while maybe the conversion is poor, there is probably some minimal level of conversion occurring preventing night blindness, xeropthalmia, etc. But again, if you can find deficiency symptoms in an orange person I would be intrigued.

If your skin is orange, by all means focus on thyroid or b12 or whatever, but I don't think getting more vitamin A, or focusing on supplementing it, is going to lead to better health.

 

[mostlylurking]

Ahh, I think if you reread my first post, you would see the confusion. I am not saying that vitamin A levels are adequate in people who have orange skin color, as I think "adequate" is a word we could argue over. See a couple posts back.

I am saying that people who are orange do not need more vitamin A in their diet as they are unlikely to be deficient(need)...meaning they will have no vitamin A deficiency symptoms. So while maybe the conversion is poor, there is probably some minimal level of conversion occurring preventing night blindness, xeropthalmia, etc. But again, if you can find deficiency symptoms in an orange person I would be intrigued.

If your skin is orange, by all means focus on thyroid or b12 or whatever, but I don't think getting more vitamin A, or focusing on supplementing it, is going to lead to better health.

Hypothyroid people cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A.

The key is improving the metabolic rate via improved thyroid function. Vitamin A deficiency can suppress thyroid function. Increasing thyroid function by supplementation with thyroid hormone will increase the need for vitamin A.

Six years ago I suffered from carotenemia and severe hypothyroidism. I've lived through this issue. I got my hypothyroidism addressed. I supplement with vitamin A because I feel better with it as part of my regimen. People with a higher metabolic rate need more vitamin A.

 

[Tarmander]

Hypothyroid people cannot convert beta carotene into vitamin A.

The key is improving the metabolic rate via improved thyroid function. Vitamin A deficiency can suppress thyroid function. Increasing thyroid function by supplementation with thyroid hormone will increase the need for vitamin A.

Six years ago I suffered from carotenemia and severe hypothyroidism. I've lived through this issue. I got my hypothyroidism addressed. I supplement with vitamin A because I feel better with it as part of my regimen. People with a higher metabolic rate need more vitamin A.

This may be a shock to you, but you could be wrong. There is a whole thread dedicated to reexamining vitamin A and many others have opposite reactions to supplemental vitamin A then you did. I am glad you got through your carotenemia, but OP may react differently to VA then you did.

A lot of times people who post problems on the RPF want to hear different takes on what they are going through. Posting in this thread reminds me why I don't post as much as I used to. Most people just want to argue with their own demons and put them onto you. Makes me exhausted

Best of luck OP, check out Grant Genereux for a different take on VA that has helped quite a few people

 

[mostlylurking]

This may be a shock to you, but you could be wrong. There is a whole thread dedicated to reexamining vitamin A and many others have opposite reactions to supplemental vitamin A then you did. I am glad you got through your carotenemia, but OP may react differently to VA then you did.

A lot of times people who post problems on the RPF want to hear different takes on what they are going through. Posting in this thread reminds me why I don't post as much as I used to. Most people just want to argue with their own demons and put them onto you. Makes me exhausted

Best of luck OP, check out Grant Genereux for a different take on VA that has helped quite a few people

Well, of course I could be wrong. But then so could you. This is supposed to be a discussion. I've posted multiple sources/videos of Ray Peat and like minded intelligent people (Danny Roddy and Georgi Dinkov) that are pertinent to the topic of this thread. You have the option to simply ignore what I posted. Suit yourself.

 

[Ippodrom47]

That sounds aweful Ippodrom! Why struggle with beta carotene though when Ray Peat says it isn't good?

Hi! I'm currently trying to eliminate all sources of beta-carotene in my diet. However, it seems pretty hard as even such things as cucumbers and a bit of paprika make me react. By the way, do u also happen to have symptoms apart from skin discoloration? What fruit/vegetables are you able to eat without issues? The thing is, consuming a portion of food with a relatively high beta-carotene content will make my fingers yellowish in a matter of hours, not even days. Then it seems to gradually go away until I f*** up again. Thanks!

 

[dabdabdab]

Hi! I'm currently trying to eliminate all sources of beta-carotene in my diet. However, it seems pretty hard as even such things as cucumbers and a bit of paprika make me react. By the way, do u also happen to have symptoms apart from skin discoloration? What fruit/vegetables are you able to eat without issues? The thing is, consuming a portion of food with a relatively high beta-carotene content will make my fingers yellowish in a matter of hours, not even days. Then it seems to gradually go away until I f*** up again. Thanks!

cucumber contains lectin, you have probably leaky gut syndrome

 

[Ippodrom47]

I was extremely sensitive to beta carotene about 6 years ago when I first found Ray Peat.

Hi! Could you please elaborate on how exactly sensitive you were? It seems that even green squash, such as zucchini, causes me hypothyroid issues when eaten in relatively small amounts even before my skin turns orange. I get irritable, tired, and my gut is sluggish.

Thanks!

 

[mostlylurking]

Hi! Could you please elaborate on how exactly sensitive you were? It seems that even green squash, such as zucchini, causes me hypothyroid issues when eaten in relatively small amounts even before my skin turns orange. I get irritable, tired, and my gut is sluggish.

Thanks!

Well, first off, zucchini squash is really allergenic so maybe you've got more going on there than just beta carotene sensitivity. I avoid zucchini like the plague as it always makes me feel horrible. I can eat very well cooked yellow crookneck summer squash, that's about it. I've noticed that allergenic things can paralyze my gut.

Allergy caused by ingestion of zucchini (Cucurbita pepo): characterization of allergens and cross-reactivity to pollen and other foods - PubMed

We report the first 4 cases of food allergy to zucchini. Zucchini allergens can cause systemic reactions and are at least partially heat stable. We suggest that allergy to zucchini can occur as a result of primary sensitization to zucchini, as well as to cross-reactions to the panallergen...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

My sensitivity to beta carotene became noticeable when my butternut squash crop came in (2014) and I perfected my curried butternut squash soup. It was pretty fabulous. I got extremely hypothyroid. I had been taking prescription natural desiccated Armour thyroid for years; the butternut squash (very high beta carotene) just about finished me off. Seems hypothyroid people can't convert beta carotene into vitamin A and instead the beta carotene seems to block thyroid function. That causes hypothyroid symptoms. Vitamin B12 is required to convert carotene to vitamin A; if you're low in B12, you can't convert carotene to A. Ray Peat talks about it. He always makes a point to specify vitamin A, NOT carotene. Beta carotene acts like a polyunsaturated fatty acid.

If you use this search engine: Bioenergetic Search and search for Carotene, a lot of Peat references come up. Here's one:


View: https://youtu.be/r2JyyakbtGk?t=2644

 

[Ippodrom47]

Beta carotene acts like a polyunsaturated fatty acid.

Well, in my case, beta-carotene is far worse. As a matter of fact, I don't experience negative effects from PUFAs, although that doesn't make them healthy in any way. By the way, I'm not taking thyroid cause I have normal TSH values and my endo has diagnosed me with the Low T3 syndrome, and I must find the cause and not treat the condition by supplementing thyroid, according to her. I also have gut issues with candida, and will see a knowledgeable gastro on Monday.
I'm really glad that I've found people with the same issues here (not that I'm glad you're having them, mind you!). Could you please let me know and confirm this as I really need a bit of support now: you'd been taking thyroid for years prior to the low-carotene diet, feeling pretty okay (right?), and then the squash season comes and you get all the hypothyroid symptoms back? Did your skin turn orange first or were the symptoms more noticeable? What symptoms were they? I get constipation, fatigue, and extreme cold intolerance. Also, how fast were you able to recuperate? Thanks again!

 

[mostlylurking]

Well, in my case, beta-carotene is far worse. As a matter of fact, I don't experience negative effects from PUFAs, although that doesn't make them healthy in any way. By the way, I'm not taking thyroid cause I have normal TSH values and my endo has diagnosed me with the Low T3 syndrome, and I must find the cause and not treat the condition by supplementing thyroid, according to her. I also have gut issues with candida, and will see a knowledgeable gastro on Monday.
I'm really glad that I've found people with the same issues here (not that I'm glad you're having them, mind you!). Could you please let me know and confirm this as I really need a bit of support now: you'd been taking thyroid for years prior to the low-carotene diet, feeling pretty okay (right?), and then the squash season comes and you get all the hypothyroid symptoms back? Did your skin turn orange first or were the symptoms more noticeable? What symptoms were they? I get constipation, fatigue, and extreme cold intolerance. Also, how fast were you able to recuperate? Thanks again!

Your symptoms sound like hypothyroidism to me. I'd like to offer to you that Ray Peat's knowledge about hypothyroidism saved my life. I trust his wisdom. It is very helpful to learn as much as you can about hypothyroidism yourself and NOT rely on a single doctor's "knowledge base" because when you do that you give up your power to heal yourself. You have that power, you just need to educate yourself. You have a vital personal interest in becoming healthy; a healthcare practitioner, not so much. They make their money via repeat business, not by making people healthy.

Personal education about hypothyroidism provides you the ability to evaluate another person's knowledge base. There are a multitude of endocrinologists out there that do not have a clue what they are talking about. There are a few good ones too. The one I go to is 84 years old with over 50 years of experience. He is a rare find indeed. I was able to discern he is a good doctor because I had read up on Ray Peat's work on the thyroid before searching for a doctor.

By the way, at my sickest, when I started with my 84 year old endo, my TSH was at .02. This doctor said he had seen that situation before and chose to ignore it and treat my symptoms instead. Over a period of 9 months, he slowly increased my thyroid medication from 90mg of natural desiccated thyroid up to 180mg of natural desiccated thyroid and I recovered. During that time, I also implemented a Ray Peat oriented diet based on his written articles.

Start with this article: Thyroid: Therapies, Confusion, and Fraud

This search engine searches all of Ray Peat's articles: PeatSearch: a Ray Peat-specific search engine - Toxinless Search for Thyroid, also for Fats.

Listen carefully to this audio show. The sound quality is terrible; the wisdom in it is priceless: https://www.toxinless.com/polsci-080911-thyroid-and-regeneration.mp3

The Broda Barnes book about hypothyroidism is very good. Here is a link for a free download of it: Download PDF: Hypothyroidism by Broda Barnes Free Book PDF

Another issue you might want to address is possible thiamine deficiency. Good health relies on having good oxidative metabolism. Both good thyroid function AND thiamine (B1) are required for good oxidative metabolism. A thiamine deficiency slows down the entire digestive tract. Keeping things moving through is very helpful. Raw carrots and cooked mushrooms are very helpful, but if you have a thiamine deficiency that has sabotaged your digestive tract, these can't solve the problem by themselves. Optimizing the digestive tract function can be achieved via these Ray Peat foods AND thiamine.

This article is of interest: Thiaminase - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
quote: "Thiaminase II is of bacterial origin (predominantly Bacillus, Candida, and Oospora) and breaks down the free vitamin, but not the TPP, into pyrimidine and thiazole components."

What this is saying is that thiaminase is made by Candida (et.al). Thiaminase destroys thiamine. This is a problem. So I think that learning about thiamine would be helpful to you.

There is a connection between candida overgrowth and high cortisol. Cortisone meds cause candida overgrowth.

 

[mostlylurking]

I don't experience negative effects from PUFAs,

On what do you base this idea?

 

[Ippodrom47]

On what do you base this idea?

On my symptoms only. Beta-carotene is far worse when it comes to it.
I'm very thankful for your reply! Did you really have barely detectable TSH and hypothyroid symptoms? What were your free t3/t4?

 

[mostlylurking]

On my symptoms only. Beta-carotene is far worse when it comes to it.
I'm very thankful for your reply! Did you really have barely detectable TSH and hypothyroid symptoms? What were your free t3/t4?

Yes my TSH is/was almost undetectable. TSH is a pituitary hormone, various things can affect the level. It is a lousy thing to base thyroid supplementation on. I was estrogen dominant for many years. I have had to deal with heavy metals toxicity for many years. I have been poisoned by organophosphate insecticide. I have had a concussion. I do not know the exact cause of my almost nonexistent TSH. Multiple things could have affected my pituitary and also my thyroid function. Heavy metal toxicity causes thiamine to get used up; thiamine deficiency affects thyroid function. There are interrelationships and it is complicated.

Central hypothyroidism - a neglected thyroid disorder - PubMed

Central hypothyroidism is a rare and heterogeneous disorder that is characterized by a defect in thyroid hormone secretion in an otherwise normal thyroid gland due to insufficient stimulation by TSH. The disease results from the abnormal function of the pituitary gland, the hypothalamus, or...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Estrogen effects on thyroid iodide uptake and thyroperoxidase activity in normal and ovariectomized rats - PubMed

Sex steroids interfere with the pituitary-thyroid axis function, although the reports have been controversial and no conclusive data is available. Some previous reports indicate that estradiol might also regulate thyroid function through a direct action on the thyrocytes. In this report, we...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I don't remember my T3/T4 exact numbers; this was over 6 years ago. I remember how I felt though. I had crippling rheumatoid arthritis, had lost the use of my thumbs, and believed I was dying. If memory serves, my T3 was low/normal on the test. The test is not calibrated correctly; many endos do not understand this. I try to keep my T3 level almost but not quite out of range to the high side.

Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) are stored for at least 4 years in the body, longer if you are overweight. They muck up the works first in subtle ways, later by causing chronic disease including cancer. No one is immune from their effects. They cause all the symptoms of aging. The older you get, the stronger the effect of PUFA on your system. If you are 9 years old with a metabolism going like a house on fire they don't affect you as much. If you slow down a little as you get a few more years on you they weigh on you more and more.

Search for Fats and also for Polyunsaturated using that Peat search engine I provided.

 

[Ippodrom47]

Yes my TSH is/was almost undetectable. TSH is a pituitary hormone, various things can affect the level. It is a lousy thing to base thyroid supplementation on. I was estrogen dominant for many years. I have had to deal with heavy metals toxicity for many years. I have been poisoned by organophosphate insecticide. I have had a concussion. I do not know the exact cause of my almost nonexistent TSH. Multiple things could have affected my pituitary and also my thyroid function. Heavy metal toxicity causes thiamine to get used up; thiamine deficiency affects thyroid function. There are interrelationships and it is complicated.

Central hypothyroidism - a neglected thyroid disorder - PubMed

Central hypothyroidism is a rare and heterogeneous disorder that is characterized by a defect in thyroid hormone secretion in an otherwise normal thyroid gland due to insufficient stimulation by TSH. The disease results from the abnormal function of the pituitary gland, the hypothalamus, or...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Estrogen effects on thyroid iodide uptake and thyroperoxidase activity in normal and ovariectomized rats - PubMed

Sex steroids interfere with the pituitary-thyroid axis function, although the reports have been controversial and no conclusive data is available. Some previous reports indicate that estradiol might also regulate thyroid function through a direct action on the thyrocytes. In this report, we...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I don't remember my T3/T4 exact numbers; this was over 6 years ago. I remember how I felt though. I had crippling rheumatoid arthritis, had lost the use of my thumbs, and believed I was dying. If memory serves, my T3 was low/normal on the test. The test is not calibrated correctly; many endos do not understand this. I try to keep my T3 level almost but not quite out of range to the high side.

Polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) are stored for at least 4 years in the body, longer if you are overweight. They muck up the works first in subtle ways, later by causing chronic disease including cancer. No one is immune from their effects. They cause all the symptoms of aging. The older you get, the stronger the effect of PUFA on your system. If you are 9 years old with a metabolism going like a house on fire they don't affect you as much. If you slow down a little as you get a few more years on you they weigh on you more and more.

Search for Fats and also for Polyunsaturated using that Peat search engine I provided.

Thanks again for such a detailed reply! I may ask for more advice later on if you don't mind

 

[mostlylurking]

Thanks again for such a detailed reply! I may ask for more advice later on if you don't mind

That's fine, I don't mind. Read Ray Peat's articles; they will help your understanding.