Extreme Fatigue From Niacinamide- Lipolysis Dependence?

[Ben]

I took Niacinamide right before and after a flu sickness, and was very weak for a long time although my symptoms of it were gone. I ran out of it and thought I got well finally. I couldn't have guessed it was Niacinamide, but I took it again, and I'm extremely weak again. Everyday tasks take a lot of effort in this crippling state, and once again like before, I can't put my arm up completely.

My best guess about the mechanism is that the lipolysis inhibition from niacinamide brings on a state of fatigue because my body is used to burning fatty acids, and that source of energy isn't there. I'm lazy in my default state, which I wonder about the mechanism of, but this effect from niacinamide is physicalfatigue. I can easily go up stairs normally if I need/want to, but with niacinamide it would be such a drag. It's worth stating that tianeptine (anti-serotonin drug) gives me physical energy, and when I took big doses, going without it would give me physical fatigue. When I took them together, tianeptine put me into a pleasant dreamy state.

So I took niacinamide for a couple of months last time and didn't get used to it. There is probably a basic problem with dependence on fatty acids for fuel, but I don't know what I can do about it. I've been taking thyroid for a while and have been eating RP way for 2 years, but I still have some estrogen-related health problems visible at the surface (acne, dandruff, rosacea, blood pooling in veins and orthostatic hypotension), and probably fatty acid dependence for fuel. What can I do so my body consumes glucose better so I don't have to have lipolysis to have energy?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Your assessment regarding niacinamide matches my experience. If I go too long without carbohydrates, niacinamide induces a feeling of malaise.

Thyroid, particularly any amount of supplemental T3, often adversely affects the androgen to estrogen ratio especially in males, primarily by increasing SHBG. The estrogen-dominant body deactivates much of the T3 via the D3 deiodinase and increases thyroid binding globulin rendering you functionally hypothyroid even when you are taking replacement doses of thyroid.

I would consider ceasing thyroid and focusing your efforts on lowering estrogen, for example, ensuring a healthy status of zinc and vitamin E levels.

 

[SQu]

I had a similar experience from December to mid February and also suspected the niacinamide as when I reduced it I felt a bit better. At the time it seemed from symptoms that estrogen and serotonin were overwhelming all measures to attempt to lower them. I was really in despair. Since then it's turned around and I'm feeling much better, at the same time as taking more Vit E (not sure it's recommended but seems to be working for me) B1, B6 (ditto) mag, calcium, potassium, and I'm alternating diphenhydramine and cypro on a weekly basis (ditto the comment). Too many supplements maybe - will address that some time once confident this improvement is stable. Along with this, associated but (like everything mentioned) not sure if that means causally, the carrot salad has been improving my digestion - the longer I take it the better it gets. Now I've raised the NA again and it's going fine. From how I feel (no aching, much better energy) I think there's less glycolysis going on. I don't know for sure which one if any did the trick but wish you well working it out, maybe something will ring a bell. (Okay, caveats aside, I suspect the benefits have mostly been due to the Vit E and the carrot salad!)

 

[Ben]

Your assessment regarding niacinamide matches my experience. If I go too long without carbohydrates, niacinamide induces a feeling of malaise.

Thyroid, particularly any amount of supplemental T3, often adversely affects the androgen to estrogen ratio especially in males, primarily by increasing SHBG. The estrogen-dominant body deactivates much of the T3 via the D3 deiodinase and increases thyroid binding globulin rendering you functionally hypothyroid even when you are taking replacement doses of thyroid.

I would consider ceasing thyroid and focusing your efforts on lowering estrogen, for example, ensuring a healthy status of zinc and vitamin E levels.

It's good to hear that my theory is probably right.

Is this why RP recommends nibbling on T3 throughout the day, instead of taking it 3x daily? I can already predict that I would forget to nibble on T3, but 3x daily is memorable.

I started taking good vitamin E and progest-E dermally recently, which will help.

I have zinc and copper supplements, but with additives like cellulose, magnesium stearate, and silica. Is it possible to extract them from the additives somehow, or should I eat oyster instead?

 

[Ben]

I had a similar experience from December to mid February and also suspected the niacinamide as when I reduced it I felt a bit better. At the time it seemed from symptoms that estrogen and serotonin were overwhelming all measures to attempt to lower them. I was really in despair. Since then it's turned around and I'm feeling much better, at the same time as taking more Vit E (not sure it's recommended but seems to be working for me) B1, B6 (ditto) mag, calcium, potassium, and I'm alternating diphenhydramine and cypro on a weekly basis (ditto the comment). Too many supplements maybe - will address that some time once confident this improvement is stable. Along with this, associated but (like everything mentioned) not sure if that means causally, the carrot salad has been improving my digestion - the longer I take it the better it gets. Now I've raised the NA again and it's going fine. From how I feel (no aching, much better energy) I think there's less glycolysis going on. I don't know for sure which one if any did the trick but wish you well working it out, maybe something will ring a bell. (Okay, caveats aside, I suspect the benefits have mostly been due to the Vit E and the carrot salad!)

It's probably reducing estrogen that did the trick, like the first poster theorized. The problem is, I'm too lazy to make myself carrot salad! And neither coffee or thyroid make me feel more energetic. I guess it's more of a discipline problem now if I think carrot salad will help my energy levels.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Your assessment regarding niacinamide matches my experience. If I go too long without carbohydrates, niacinamide induces a feeling of malaise.

Thyroid, particularly any amount of supplemental T3, often adversely affects the androgen to estrogen ratio especially in males, primarily by increasing SHBG. The estrogen-dominant body deactivates much of the T3 via the D3 deiodinase and increases thyroid binding globulin rendering you functionally hypothyroid even when you are taking replacement doses of thyroid.

I would consider ceasing thyroid and focusing your efforts on lowering estrogen, for example, ensuring a healthy status of zinc and vitamin E levels.

It's good to hear that my theory is probably right.

Is this why RP recommends nibbling on T3 throughout the day, instead of taking it 3x daily? I can already predict that I would forget to nibble on T3, but 3x daily is memorable.

I started taking good vitamin E and progest-E dermally recently, which will help.

I have zinc and copper supplements, but with additives like cellulose, magnesium stearate, and silica. Is it possible to extract them from the additives somehow, or should I eat oyster instead?

Anything more than the slightest excess of exogenous T3 perceived by the body is quickly deactivated via the D3 deiodinase into reverse-T3. D3 also converts some of the T4 into T2. In fact, too-much-too-soon T3 makes one functionally even more hypothyroid, contrary to what is usually assumed. I think the general drift of Ray's recommendation is to take a micro gram or two every few hours to prevent D3 from being stimulated too much. Considerations similar to T3 also apply for coffee. Nevertheless, I would again question the use of thyroid in the first place.

I don't think Ray is too enthusiastic about the Vitamin E subfraction: tocotrienols, however, they have been a most effective supplement against estrogen, at least for me. The tocotrienols dramatically raised my libido and made my gonads noticeably more ample. Tocopherols, whether Gamma E (whose viscosity is very questionable) or other more expensive formulations haven't done anything palpable so far.

Oysters would certainly be the best way of getting trace minerals but I have found supplementing zinc to be more effective in controlling estrogen. Maybe that's just because I cannot afford to eat fresh oysters everyday, and by supplementing one gets a consistent daily dose. Regarding the excipients try effervescent tablets for they generally don't contain silica.

 

[j.]

Anything more than the slightest excess of exogenous T3 perceived by the body is quickly deactivated via the D3 deiodinase into reverse-T3.

Then how are thyroid overdoses possible?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Anything more than the slightest excess of exogenous T3 perceived by the body is quickly deactivated via the D3 deiodinase into reverse-T3.

Then how are thyroid overdoses possible?

Overdoses are certainly possible for the deiodinases are controlled by many factors including hormones and vitamin and mineral status. I know that bodybuilders who are juiced on DHT-derivatives heat up like fire when on cytomel. While people with estrogen dominance often don't respond expectedly to even 150mcg of T3 a day.

 

[j.]

Interesting. Should people who don't respond to thyroid try to find a way to produce less deiodinases ?

 

[jyb]

I could swallow a whole thyroid pills at a time without any effect. I don't think I'm estrogen dominant however, but maybe serotonin overloaded.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

Interesting. Should people who don't respond to thyroid try to find a way to produce less deiodinases ?

Minerals and vitamins that are considered cofactors of thyroid function have a direct influence on the activity of the deiodinases, so ensuring being replete in them is one way. The other one is of course the hormones, and is perhaps the one relevant to most of us in this forum. If you're male, my hard-won wisdom suggests that attacking estrogen holds the key to reversing the thyroid dysfunction. If that fails, or if one continues to be hypothyroid, one should (on the contrary) start with T4-only and add only the tiniest amounts of T3, in order to limit the rise of SHBG and hence estrogen.

 

[j.]

If you're male, my hard-won wisdom suggests that attacking estrogen holds the key to reversing the thyroid dysfunction.

Probably best to do that with progesterone?

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

I could swallow a whole thyroid pills at a time without any effect. I don't think I'm estrogen dominant however, but maybe serotonin overloaded.

That's quite plausible. However, since serotonin and estrogen usually go hand in hand, one should be careful about assessing one's estrogen status. Blood tests for estrogen are more or less since they don't report tissue levels. Even if you do consider the serum test results one often does not look at the weaker form estrone and the downstream metabolites of estrogen like 2OH, 4-OH etc.

Also one needs to look at estrogen levels in relation to one's androgen status. Being low in DHT is just as problematic.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

If you're male, my hard-won wisdom suggests that attacking estrogen holds the key to reversing the thyroid dysfunction.

Probably best to do that with progesterone?

It should work in theory but I have tried absurd doses to no avail. Progesterone can down regulate your 5a reductase that takes a few weeks to recover. Experience with aromatase inhibitors in general usually shows that they elevate progesterone.

The surest way to reverse the palpable effects of estrogen in men is to use DHT, but I think it requires some sophistication on account of the user for androgens are suppressive and there is the problem of transfer risk to women and children.

 

[jyb]

The surest way to reverse the palpable effects of estrogen in men is to use DHT, but I think it requires some sophistication on account of the user for androgens are suppressive and there is the problem of transfer risk to women and children.

Is there a way to know for sure (eg. by bloodwork) what is causing the issue? For example, that it is due to estrogen and that DHT would help. I'm thinking that if the body is constantly producing what it takes to inactive any amount of supplemental thyroid, then something must be detectable. So far I've always assumed that my symptoms were due to serotonin as they are more typical to what Peat describes in his serotonin articles with brain issues, rather than body/weight problems with estrogen.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

The surest way to reverse the palpable effects of estrogen in men is to use DHT, but I think it requires some sophistication on account of the user for androgens are suppressive and there is the problem of transfer risk to women and children.

Is there a way to know for sure (eg. by bloodwork) what is causing the issue? For example, that it is due to estrogen and that DHT would help. I'm thinking that if the body is constantly producing what it takes to inactive any amount of supplemental thyroid, then something must be detectable. So far I've always assumed that my symptoms were due to serotonin as they are more typical to what Peat describes in his serotonin articles with brain issues, rather than body/weight problems with estrogen.

Of course, it would be straightforward if say your estrogen (E2) and DHT were very high and very low, respectively. But there are many cases where it could be opposite and you would get the wrong idea. Again, you could be skinny as a rake and still have prostate enlarement (BPH) a telltale sign of elevated estrogen. So, to that extent you could go ahead and do the labs. Apart from that there are so many things that could possibly be inhibiting thyroid, that I wouldn't know where to begin. How is your bedroom performance, body fat level?

Thyroid could be making things worse. Have you tried stopping thyroid (what form do you take?) and perhaps increasing vitamin E and zinc? What does DHEA do in your case?

When DHEA works (without raising estrogen) it's like a mild-testosterone cycle without the shutdown effects. It ought to warm you up, burn fat like butter and kick libido in overdrive.

 

[jyb]

How is your bedroom performance, body fat level?

Thyroid could be making things worse. Have you tried stopping thyroid (what form do you take?) and perhaps increasing vitamin E and zinc? What does DHEA do in your case?

When DHEA works (without raising estrogen) it's like a mild-testosterone cycle without the shutdown effects. It ought to warm you up, burn fat like butter and kick libido in overdrive.

Very low body fat, I never get fat no matter what I eat, I used to be a bit slim/fragile but since Peating two years ago I have a nice, stable athletic shape without exercising. I've tried both dessicated and synthetic thyroid, but never T4 alone. DHEA can sometimes kill inappropriate stress (eg, heart rate will normalize quicker after having walked up some stairs), but I don't take it every day. I have no bedroom problems, but DHEA and oysters probably increase my libido, so does cyproheptadine. Daily gelatin is useful for mood. I've fixed a lot of my lethargy with cascara, and cypro is interesting, but I still have a lot of insomnia. I haven't experiment enough with vit E yet. Occasionally when I'm having a very tough day with lethargy, progesterone helps to switch my brain back on. Very fresh OJ is also a remedy, maybe due to its anti-estrogenic compounds. If I take progesterone for a day or two, I notice softer erections, but after stopping progesterone it quickly goes back to normal.

 

[unexamined_whimsy]

I think you're more or less in good shape, except the insomnia. Do you know your prolactin level? A trial with a dopamine agonist may be helpful if your prolactin is around 10. Does vitamin b6 help with sleep?

 

[jyb]

I think you're more or less in good shape, except the insomnia. Do you know your prolactin level? A trial with a dopamine agonist may be helpful if your prolactin is around 10. Does vitamin b6 help with sleep?

I have lethargy in addition to insomnia, so I wouldn't consider myself in good shape - lethargy means during some of the day I can't do basic stuff like holding a conversation (and much worse if I can't have my Peat foods). It's pretty clear from my temperatures that I'm hypothyroid. I'll try vit6, but I don't know my prolactin level.

 

[haidut]

I am not sure the body converts the excess T3 into reverse T3. The things I read suggest that excess T4 is converted into reverse T3. That's why taking pure T4 is not advisable and why so many people being prescribed synthetic thyroid (usually thyroxine, which is pure T4) by their doctor feel like absolute ***t and report feeling worse than without taking anything at all. Overdosing on T3 is possible, and the people not reacting to T3 are probably estrogen dominant as suggested above. So, sorting out estrogen issues is good but I would not recommend anyone go on T4 only.