Experiences/input Regarding Taking More Than 4 Grains Thyroid

jaakkima

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Hi there. Over the years I've heard reports of some people taking doses larger than 4 grains daily. Ray told me about someone who he once knew who improved with 15 grains. I don't know the circumstances of those people but does anyone here have experience with it to relate?

I have found that I am greatly improving with 4 grains, apparently after using some other things to address bacterial and estrogen situations. But I have a very complicated situation in gauging it because my situation that developed into a bowel disease and clotting issues requiring warfarin seriously complicated my temp and pulse and symptoms. Temp and pulse both were high and not showing reliable indications so I went by symptoms alone. Most symptoms are greatly improving but I can't tell how much of my symptoms are from the warfarin, or something that thyroid won't fix, vs potentially needing more thyroid. Taking extra T3 doesn't do any miracles so far but taking some extra helps though nowhere close to as much as progesterone and Vitamin E.

So is there any advice to look for particular T3/RT3 test results if I do try any more? Or personal opinions/experiences to share, or warnings? Thanks.
 

stsfut

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Following. I tried to keep increasing my ndt going the STTM route but can’t seem to get past 2.25 grains w/o feeling terrible.
 

jaakkima

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Following. I tried to keep increasing my ndt going the STTM route but can’t seem to get past 2.25 grains w/o feeling terrible.
Assuming you actually do need more I'd work on facilitating T4 conversion, addressing any estrogen, infection/dysbiosis, or inflammation. Also I had to correct B vitamin and Mg deficiencies. And protein protein protein. My temp/pulse were confusing due to a weird condition but my middle of the night/waking temp was, I now know, generally a little low, even though my temp got sky high at other times. I am currently thinking that I am good at 4 grains; progesterone is working for me now suddenly, and at the end of the couple weeks ramping up seem to be having some breakthrough...
 

TeaRex14

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Wow 15 grains is A LOT! Did that person have their thyroid gland removed or something? I don't understand why someone should use such a large dose. A 4 grain dose isn't really the typical average either, sort of higher then normal. Have you addressed dietary sugar, selenium, and endoxtins? Deficiencies in sugar and selenium can cause T4 conversion to be poor. Endotoxins can also hamper with T4 conversion, so a carrot salad and maybe even some activated charcoal might be in order.
 

jaakkima

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Wow 15 grains is A LOT! Did that person have their thyroid gland removed or something? I don't understand why someone should use such a large dose. A 4 grain dose isn't really the typical average either, sort of higher then normal. Have you addressed dietary sugar, selenium, and endoxtins? Deficiencies in sugar and selenium can cause T4 conversion to be poor. Endotoxins can also hamper with T4 conversion, so a carrot salad and maybe even some activated charcoal might be in order.
Yeah I am far from the typical situation.
 

TeaRex14

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Split dosing would definitely probably be the way to go on a 4 grain dose. Get plenty of sugar, get plenty of selenium, reduce endotoxin, and split the dose so you don't have too much hormone entering you at one time causing rT3 to become elevated. Monitor how you feel over the next couple weeks. You may find after increasing selenium and cleaning out endotoxin that a 4 grain dose is too high.
 

jaakkima

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Split dosing would definitely probably be the way to go on a 4 grain dose. Get plenty of sugar, get plenty of selenium, reduce endotoxin, and split the dose so you don't have too much hormone entering you at one time causing rT3 to become elevated. Monitor how you feel over the next couple weeks. You may find after increasing selenium and cleaning out endotoxin that a 4 grain dose is too high.
This seems rather detached from what I wrote. Did you read it? That's all obvious and I'm already on 4 grains. Started the thread to ask if anyone has tried higher doses, not to troubleshoot what I'm doing, which would require in-depth, long discussion of other things. I don't understand the way taking supraphysiological doses works so curious if anyone had insight.
 
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TeaRex14

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Yeah, I was just giving some suggestions to improve your T4 conversion rate. The conversion of T4 to T3 is obviously your dilemma as well, which is why you need a high dose of NDT. The ultimate goal here should be reducing thyroid meds not increasing them. I have no experience with high doses, the highest I've went is 2.5 grains. You might should try a different NDT product as well, just to see if the one you're using is not watered down in any way.
 

jaakkima

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I thought poor conversion would mean that one's condition would be aggravated by increasing the dose . Which was roughly my experience before doing some other things. Some people need 3 or 4 grains. More NDT = more T4 = more RT3 if you have a conversion issue. So why is it "obviously" an issue for me? There is certainly a variety of things that could be causing conversion issues for me... even if I've solved my issues, given that for the moment I'm still on an unbelievably toxic and horrible drug. A little bit of T3 helps and more than a little makes me cold, which I explain by it helping with the RT3 issue. Only a little, maybe around the 3:1 total ratio Ray recommends. So I would think based on that that RT3 is not even much of an issue for me (though even if it is I would bet that getting off warfarin would correct that easily). Anyway this is the concept of conversion and T4/NDT supplementation that I've heard for years.

If you you can correct me I'm all ears. Seeing as you're just a random person to me I'm not going to just believe without explanation.

And I'm using the best product. I've tried many over the years and have been experimenting with all these variables for many years. No one still knows why I developed my disease. I think I finally put all the pieces of the puzzle together but I think that this higher dose of thyroid is the main thing that could have prevented everything if I'd done it a few years ago. I think it might be hard for some people who haven't had an extremely serious condition to get that other people need different dosages of things.
 
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TeaRex14

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I thought poor conversion would mean that one's condition would be aggravated by increasing the dose .
Possibly, but this is more likely to occur on T4 only products. NDT has T3, T2, T1, and calcitonin. So when taking NDT, even with bad T4 conversion, you're always probably going to get the immediate benefits of active thyroid hormones.

Which was roughly my experience before doing some other things. Some people need 3 or 4 grains.
Yes some people definitely do need that much. I just like to promote the idea of proceeding with caution if going that high, although some people need this much, it's a minority of people. And before you conclude you belong to this minority it's wise to exhaust all other options first.

More NDT = more T4 = more RT3 if you have a conversion issue. So why is it "obviously" an issue for me? There is certainly a variety of things that could be causing conversion issues for me... even if I've solved my issues, given that for the moment I'm still on an unbelievably toxic and horrible drug. A little bit of T3 helps and more than a little makes me cold, which I explain by it helping with the RT3 issue.
Two reasons why I think. One, you're taking an above average dose of NDT. Which tells me there's a high probability that T4, the storage hormone, isn't helping you at all. The T3 in the NDT is helping you, but since it has a short half life you're having to take higher doses of it. Two, the fact you state a little T3 supplementation helps you out. This just reinforces my first statement. Someone's thyroid gland when healthy produces approx 4mcg of T3 per hour. So when you take too much T3 and it makes you cold this is because your liver is converting the T3 into rT3.
 

jaakkima

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That doesn't make any sense to me, as T3 only has never relieved my symptoms, nor lower doses of a combo plus T3. That only happened on a straight line with the buildup of T4 in my tissues, on a number of occasions including this one. So I disagree...

And as far as other strategies I'm pretty sure I've exhausted them.
 

TeaRex14

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You stated
A little bit of T3 helps and more than a little makes me cold, which I explain by it helping with the RT3 issue.
How do you suspect your rT3 levels got elevated in the first place? It's very likely your T3 supplementation only helped when you had adequate T4 in your tissues because the T4 was pushing you into a even more hypo state.
 

ilikecats

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@jaakkima would you mind letting me know what you asked ray and what his exact response was? (The 15 grain thing) Mostly just out of curiosity. Ray confuses me on thyroid supplementation... says a bunch of negative stuff about T4 (including mentioning how it induced a myxedema coma in one individual) but add in some T3 and it’s okay to take massive amounts of it? But yeah I’d check reverse T3. I only take T3. The only way to know how it will effect you is to try. Ray seems to be giving you the green light and as way all know rays extremely cautious about everything so I’m sure it’s safe.
 

ilikecats

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@TeaRex14 t3 does not raise rt3. In fact mega dosing T3 has been used as a reliable therapy to lower rt3. T4 certainly can raise reverse T3, whether it’s from synthroid or NDT. The body can inactivate T3 but thats through other mechanisms.
 

TeaRex14

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Some quotes from Ray Peat.

"When you take T3 without food, it enters the blood stream very suddenly, and the liver is likely to detect an excessive amount, causing it to produce enzymes to eliminate it. The result can be a decrease in T3 for the rest of the day" (it lowers your T3 levels when you take too much through enzymes elminating it. I thought it was through increasing rT3, my bad. But net result is still the same.)

"Since the body normally produces about 4 mcg of T3 in an hour, taking 10 or 20 mcg at once is unphysiological."

"The liver has to convert T4 to T3 for it to be effective. It needs glucose and selenium to make the conversion. Adequate protein, at least 80 grams per day, is necessary. Sea food, once a week will provide selenium, two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice would provide many of the other essential nutrients."

"If you use some T3 (such as Cytomel or Cynomel) it's important to keep each dose small, while watching for changes in your pulse and temperature. Usually 4 or 5 mcg at a time is o.k. (the body makes about 4 mcg per hour)."
 

jaakkima

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You stated How do you suspect your rT3 levels got elevated in the first place? It's very likely your T3 supplementation only helped when you had adequate T4 in your tissues because the T4 was pushing you into a even more hypo state.
I don't even know what you're talking about anymore with your speculation... You're just being a troll. My night/waking temp is way better now, symptoms that nothing else helped finally better... Anyway take care.
 

jaakkima

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Some quotes from Ray Peat.

"When you take T3 without food, it enters the blood stream very suddenly, and the liver is likely to detect an excessive amount, causing it to produce enzymes to eliminate it. The result can be a decrease in T3 for the rest of the day" (it lowers your T3 levels when you take too much through enzymes elminating it. I thought it was through increasing rT3, my bad. But net result is still the same.)

"Since the body normally produces about 4 mcg of T3 in an hour, taking 10 or 20 mcg at once is unphysiological."

"The liver has to convert T4 to T3 for it to be effective. It needs glucose and selenium to make the conversion. Adequate protein, at least 80 grams per day, is necessary. Sea food, once a week will provide selenium, two quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice would provide many of the other essential nutrients."

"If you use some T3 (such as Cytomel or Cynomel) it's important to keep each dose small, while watching for changes in your pulse and temperature. Usually 4 or 5 mcg at a time is o.k. (the body makes about 4 mcg per hour)."
Thanks for the already known/obvious and diverting the thread on this tangent. Don't know why you assume this is relevant commentary.
 

TeaRex14

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Thanks for the already known/obvious and diverting the thread on this tangent. Don't know why you assume this is relevant commentary.

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore with your speculation... You're just being a troll. My night/waking temp is way better now, symptoms that nothing else helped finally better... Anyway take care.
My last reply was to @ilikecats, not you. Your being a bit of adick considering I was just being helpful. Do whatever you want, but your problem is a T4 conversion.
 

jaakkima

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My last reply was to @ilikecats, not you. Your being a bit of adick considering I was just being helpful. Do whatever you want, but your problem is a T4 conversion.
Based on what? Nothing indicates it even by your reasoning. And what "problem"? Like I said many times my problems are going away. Especially after adding some cascara. Basically you keep making assumptions about things I didn't really say things about. So I don't know why you think I have a problem with what I said I'm currently doing that is working. There are lots of things that can disrupt thyroid function including producing T4, and you know next to nothing about my overall situation yet you act like you know all about it. Thanks for the nice words. I think your problem is an arrogant dogmatic attitude.
 
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jaakkima

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BTW regarding you saying I have to take T3 or NDT doses to feel better, I don't and never said that. The T4 from the NDTNDT ma it so I just eat and feel better. Among other things I never said that you assumed...
 
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