Experience With Ephedrine?

[michael94]

I'm glad this was bumped because ephedrine is a fascinating topic.

 

[cyclops]

Yah it's freaking awesome lol. I was definitely addicted to it 10 or so years ago.

Me too. And I think I had a VERY bad time when I came off of it. I say "think" because it could have been some other things. Regardless I felt AMAZING when on it. Like superman. A very happy, good-mood, superman.

 

[Progesterone]

If ephedrine turns out to be a good thing I will be first in line. Took ECA stack many years ago and nothing ever made me feel happier.

Dude I'm on 16mg ephedrine + 200mg caff + 81mg aspirin. Feel soooo amazing. (also on Oxidal)

I raised concern in another thread about it.

Norepinephrine has been shown to increase aromatase dramatically. If ephedrine raises norepinephrine then you could see an increase in estrogen and a decrease in testosterone when supplementing with it. Here are some quotes from studies I've found:

Acute effect of ephedrine on 24-h energy balance. - PubMed - NCBI
"Ephedrine (50 mg thrice daily) modestly increases energy expenditure in normal human subjects. A lack of binding of ephedrine to beta3-adrenoreceptors and the observed decrease in urinary noradrenaline during ephedrine treatment suggest that the thermogenic effect of ephedrine results from direct beta1-/beta2-adrenoreceptor agonism. An indirect beta3-adrenergic effect through the release of noradrenaline seems unlikely as urinary noradrenaline decreased significantly with ephedrine."

What the underlined could indicate is that ephedrine causes the body to retain norepinephrine.

Another study said this:

The Sympathomimetic Actions of l -Ephedrine and d -Pseudoephedrine: Direct Receptor Activation or Norepinephrine Release?
"Its stimulant actions result from direct and indirect activation of [alpha] - and [beta]-adrenoceptors (2,3). The major mechanism of its indirect action is considered to be release of norepinephrine from peripheral sympathetic neurons and, possibly, inhibition of neuronal norepinephrine reuptake, rather than a centrally mediated action (4)."

Anyway that's about as far as I've gotten (yes gotten is a word )

So basically the concern is: Ephedrine may raise norepinephrine and norepinephrine may raise aromatase

I read a study that showed it was anti-estrogenic ?! (i'll try and find it)

50mg x3 a day is a ***t LOAD of ephedrine..... I need 16mg a day, 24mg MAX, and I am rolling all day.

Who the hell needs 50mg 3 times a day!

I wonder at 16mg/day should be fine few times a week...?!?

 

[schultz]

I read a study that showed it was anti-estrogenic ?! (i'll try and find it)

I would be interested in this study if you can find it!

Yah 50mg 3 times a day is a lot in my opinion. Never did I go over 50mg or so a day and most days it was more like 24mg or less. Back in the ephedrine craze people were taking 300+mg per day.

EDIT: I found this study by typing in google "ephedrine estrogen" (shock!!)

Screening for in vivo (anti)estrogenic activity of ephedrine and p-synephrine and their natural sources Ephedra sinica Stapf. (Ephedraceae) and Cit... - PubMed - NCBI

Have to read it to see what it says

EDIT#2: Okay here is what it says

"In this study, we used the uterotrophic assay, one of the most widely used short-term screening assays designed to detect (anti)estrogenic activity of chemical substances or mixtures (Baker 2001; Andrade et al. 2002; Dalsenter et al. 2004)."

Ephedrine was found to be anti-estrogenic based on the uterotrophic assay. I know nothing about this way of testing estrogen so I cannot comment.

"In conclusion, an anti-estrogenic property of ephedrine was detected, however, the endocrine system is highly complex and there are a number of ways in which a chemical may interfere with it. Some of these mechanisms, such as interference with the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis, may not be detected by short-term screening assays (Andrade et al. 2002), being necessary other in vivo and in vitro assays, such as hormones quantification, to support this mechanism of action."

 

[Progesterone]

I would be interested in this study if you can find it!

Yah 50mg 3 times a day is a lot in my opinion. Never did I go over 50mg or so a day and most days it was more like 24mg or less. Back in the ephedrine craze people were taking 300+mg per day.

EDIT: I found this study by typing in google "ephedrine estrogen" (shock!!)

Screening for in vivo (anti)estrogenic activity of ephedrine and p-synephrine and their natural sources Ephedra sinica Stapf. (Ephedraceae) and Cit... - PubMed - NCBI

Have to read it to see what it says

EDIT#2: Okay here is what it says

"In this study, we used the uterotrophic assay, one of the most widely used short-term screening assays designed to detect (anti)estrogenic activity of chemical substances or mixtures (Baker 2001; Andrade et al. 2002; Dalsenter et al. 2004)."

Ephedrine was found to be anti-estrogenic based on the uterotrophic assay. I know nothing about this way of testing estrogen so I cannot comment.

"In conclusion, an anti-estrogenic property of ephedrine was detected, however, the endocrine system is highly complex and there are a number of ways in which a chemical may interfere with it. Some of these mechanisms, such as interference with the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis, may not be detected by short-term screening assays (Andrade et al. 2002), being necessary other in vivo and in vitro assays, such as hormones quantification, to support this mechanism of action."

I am at work, so will look for it later, but...

I am much more worried about it's effect on adrenals (fight or flight), etc.... than I am about it boosting estrogen too much.. no?

 

[Frankdee20]

It produces an enormous euphoric effect and increases metabolism through the stress hormones. It's something you don't want to use.

Yeah, ephedrine is a slight molecular modification away from amphetamine. Drink the Mormon Tea for natural occurring ephedra.

 

[michael94]

I would be interested in this study if you can find it!

Yah 50mg 3 times a day is a lot in my opinion. Never did I go over 50mg or so a day and most days it was more like 24mg or less. Back in the ephedrine craze people were taking 300+mg per day.

EDIT: I found this study by typing in google "ephedrine estrogen" (shock!!)

Screening for in vivo (anti)estrogenic activity of ephedrine and p-synephrine and their natural sources Ephedra sinica Stapf. (Ephedraceae) and Cit... - PubMed - NCBI

Have to read it to see what it says

EDIT#2: Okay here is what it says

"In this study, we used the uterotrophic assay, one of the most widely used short-term screening assays designed to detect (anti)estrogenic activity of chemical substances or mixtures (Baker 2001; Andrade et al. 2002; Dalsenter et al. 2004)."

Ephedrine was found to be anti-estrogenic based on the uterotrophic assay. I know nothing about this way of testing estrogen so I cannot comment.

"In conclusion, an anti-estrogenic property of ephedrine was detected, however, the endocrine system is highly complex and there are a number of ways in which a chemical may interfere with it. Some of these mechanisms, such as interference with the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis, may not be detected by short-term screening assays (Andrade et al. 2002), being necessary other in vivo and in vitro assays, such as hormones quantification, to support this mechanism of action."

Pseudoephedrine/ephedrine shows potent anti-inflammatory activity against TNF-α-mediated acute liver failure induced by lipopolysaccharide/D-galactosamine. | BioGRID

The anti-inflammatory effects of pseudoephedrine/ephedrine were investigated using the experimental model of lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced acute liver failure in D-galactosamine (D-GalN)-sensitised male rats in order to elucidate effects other than sympathomimetic effects. Rats were intraperitoneally injected with D-GalN (400 mg/kg) and LPS (40 μg/kg) to induce acute liver failure. The treatment groups were then intraperitoneally administered pseudoephedrine/ephedrine at 0 h and 4 h after induction and the activation induced by treatment with pseudoephedrine and/or LPS on the primary Kupffer cells (KCs) was monitored. Compared with controls induced by GalN/LPS alone, pseudoephedrine dramatically reduced the infiltration of inflammatory cells and bile ductular hyperplasia and hepatic necrosis observed in liver sections. It inhibited both hepatocellular apoptosis and the expression of monocyte chemotactic protein-1. It lowered the production of tumour necrosis factor-α (TNF-α) in the beginning of acute liver failure induced by D-GalN/LPS. Correspondingly, levels of alanine aminotransferase (ALT), total bilirubin (TBIL) and malondialdehyde were attenuated. Ephedrine demonstrated all these identical protective effects as well. In addition, pseudoephedrine significantly suppressed the production of p-IκB-α, reducing the degradation of sequestered nuclear factor kappa B (NF-κB) in the cytoplasm, and inhibited the translocation of NF-κB/p65 to the nucleus, the transcription of TNF-α mRNA and the production of TNF-α in primary KCs. These results suggest that pseudoephedrine and ephedrine have a potent anti-inflammatory activity against D-GalN/LPS-induced acute liver failure in rats, and this comprehensive anti-inflammatory effect may result from the inhibition of TNF-α production

More going on with ephedrine than just "stress hormones" methinks

 

[michael94]

@cyclops @JonnyCraig @Frankdee20

http://new.ijlbpr.com/jlbpradmin/upload/ijlbpr_533b93077f248.pdf

Introduction: The liver regulates several important functions such as metabolism. Liver cirrhosis has most cardiovascular complications. Medicinal plants, due to their low side effects, have been used as alternative to chemical drugs. Ephedra major with flavonoids compounds have effective role in treatment of many diseases. Aims and objectives: The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of hydroalcoholic extract of Ephedra major on laboratory (serum bilirubin) and pathological parameters on a model of induced cholestasis in rats. Materials and Methods: In this study, 40 male Sprague Dawley rats (200-250 g) were divided into 5 groups: sham (normal saline, 1 mL/kg/ day), cirrhotic (normal saline, 1 mL/kg/day), extract (200 mg/kg/day), cirrhotic treated with extract (100 and 200 mg/kg/day). Biliary cirrhosis in animals induced by chronic (4-weeks) Bile DuctLigation (BDL). The extracts and normal saline were gavaged for 15 consecutive days. In all groups, 4 weeks after surgery, animals anesthetized and blood samples were collected from the rat’s heart for measure serum bilirubin in plasma and the liver was isolated and immersed in 10% formalin solution and stained by haematoxiline-eosine (H&E) method then histopathological parameters was investigated. Results were analyzed by using student t-test and one way ANOVA. P<0.05 was considered as significant level. Results: After induced of BDL, Results showed that laboratory and pathological parameters in the cirrhotic group significantly increased compared to sham group. Laboratory and pathological parameters were reduced in cirrhotic groups treated with extract compared to cirrhotic group. Conclusion: Significant decrease in laboratory and pathological parameters in BDL group treated by hydroalcoholic extract of Ephedra major suggests the protective effect of Short-term consumption of low dose Ephedra major in cirrhotic patients.

looks to have some incredible protective effects on the liver in the short term but may be bad on adrenals/cardiovascular system long term . So the million dollar question is: can it be used effectively in low doses while mitigating the side effects?

 

[Progesterone]

@cyclops @JonnyCraig @Frankdee20

http://new.ijlbpr.com/jlbpradmin/upload/ijlbpr_533b93077f248.pdf



looks to have some incredible protective effects on the liver in the short term but may be bad on adrenals/cardiovascular system long term . So the million dollar question is: can it be used effectively in low doses while mitigating the side effects?

Can someone smarter than michael94 and I please look into this and advise?

 

[michael94]

Can someone smarter than michael94 and I please look into this and advise?

In Chinese medicine, Ephedra, called Ma Huang, is used in a variety of situations, most of them acute. The ancient classical texts of Chinese medicine warn physicians not to use Ma Huang over long periods of time or at too high a dose. Ma huang is considered warming in nature. Its flavor is pungent and bitter. It promotes diaphoresis (sweating) and is used to benefit asthma, wheezing and in some cases coughing. It was also known to promote urination. Most frequently the herb is used in cases of what traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) calls: wind-cold. A wind-cold invasion in Chinese Medicine roughly corresponds to a particular constellation of signs and symptoms similar to the common cold: there may be cough, aching and chills, runny nose, and no sweating. In the case of wind-cold, ma huang opens the pores and diffuses the lung qi (the body’s vital energy) allowing sweating. This pushes the pathogen out of the body by releasing the exterior, or skin.

Though Ephedra may be used irresponsibly by some consumers and though when used on a long term basis for weight loss there may be increased risk, these are not good enough reasons to ban the use of the herb by responsibly trained acupuncturists and health care professionals. Used for thousands of years in China safely and effectively, Ma Huang is an incredibly effective herbal medicine when used appropriately and expertly. Current media portray only the popularized uses of Ephedra but say nothing of its potential in cases of asthma. Though over the counter sales in weight loss products may need to be restricted or banned, we must preserve the right and freedom to practice Chinese medicine using the full range of its materia medica for the benefit of all people everywhere.

pasted from: The Ephedra Controversy: How Chinese Medicine uses Ephedra safely - Blue Ridge Acupuncture Clinic

 

[cyclops]

Anyone currently taking ephedrine? Or wanna talk about it some?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Or wanna talk about it some?

Yes just hook me up

 

[michael94]

Anyone currently taking ephedrine? Or wanna talk about it some?

Sure...

Ephedrine is E-Pferd-In

Be careful... because a horse will not respect you if you abuse it.

 

[cyclops]

Herb doctors brought ephedrine up in the allergy interview and Ray seemed indifferent or may even have some benefit. He did say he much preferred methyxanthines. Maybe even PEA in very small doses.

Could you point me the direction of this interview? Would love to hear this directly from the horse.

Also anyone using this currently?

 

[cyclops]

ECA stack anyone? I gotta know if Peat approves on this. Would be best day ever if he does.

 

[NathanK]

Could you point me the direction of this interview? Would love to hear this directly from the horse.

Also anyone using this currently?

come on, dude... I did. It's the only Herb Doctor interview labeled, "Allergy".

 

[cyclops]

come on, dude... I did. It's the only Herb Doctor interview labeled, "Allergy".

lol, my bad.

 

[cyclops]

Here is some of this interview:

Dr. Ray Peat: And I think it's mostly the sugar but the caffeine contributes to the same thing helping to keep your blood sugar up and Ephedra is more powerful than caffeine but working in the same direction.

Andrew Murray: Okay. When talking about Ephedra Dr. Peat, thanks for that caller, it used to be powered excellence herb for asthma. They used to use a lot of Ephedra and unfortunately got abused and withdrawn from the marketplace probably 10 years ago now.

But as a stimulant and for reducing the effects of inflammation and allergies do you think that it was sympathetic drive or some antihistamine quality that it had that was responsible Andrew Murray: for it?

Dr. Ray Peat: I think they are all the same thing. The pharmacologists like to talk about specific receptors being activated and so on, but there is just an extreme overlap. That's the same way that the steroid hormones, all of them overlap either positively or negatively. The Benzedrine, amphetamine, Ephedra, dopamine, adrenaline, diphenhydramine, cyproheptadine, all of these things that are – they have different names and categories but they all have a good antihistamine pro- blood sugar, pro- respiratory effect.

Andrew Murray: Okay, just to share they've been in the line because of some of their tachycardia hypertensive effects I think in the extreme. I think that's probably one of the main reasons that Ephedra was pulled from the market I think people doing long-distance truck driving et cetera were abusing it to say awake and I think there were some incidences of, I don't know, probably stroke in some people or high blood pressure in others that caused them to pull off the market. Do you know if there is any of those sympathetic stimulants that maybe don't have such a stimulant effect to change blood pressure or pulse rate but would still have a antihistamine effect or one that had a different mechanism of activity?

Dr. Ray Peat: Currently (inaudible) alternative that's legal is one that’s produced in the brain but it’s a close relative off dopamine and adrenaline. It's called, phenethylamine, PEA.

Andrew Murray: Okay. Phenethylamine.

Dr. Ray Peat: But people again are talking about 500 to a 1,000 or 1,500 milligram doses which I think are crazy. I think a helpful dose would be maybe five or 10 milligrams.

 

[NathanK]

Here is some of this interview:

Dr. Ray Peat: And I think it's mostly the sugar but the caffeine contributes to the same thing helping to keep your blood sugar up and Ephedra is more powerful than caffeine but working in the same direction.

Andrew Murray: Okay. When talking about Ephedra Dr. Peat, thanks for that caller, it used to be powered excellence herb for asthma. They used to use a lot of Ephedra and unfortunately got abused and withdrawn from the marketplace probably 10 years ago now.

But as a stimulant and for reducing the effects of inflammation and allergies do you think that it was sympathetic drive or some antihistamine quality that it had that was responsible Andrew Murray: for it?

Dr. Ray Peat: I think they are all the same thing. The pharmacologists like to talk about specific receptors being activated and so on, but there is just an extreme overlap. That's the same way that the steroid hormones, all of them overlap either positively or negatively. The Benzedrine, amphetamine, Ephedra, dopamine, adrenaline, diphenhydramine, cyproheptadine, all of these things that are – they have different names and categories but they all have a good antihistamine pro- blood sugar, pro- respiratory effect.

Andrew Murray: Okay, just to share they've been in the line because of some of their tachycardia hypertensive effects I think in the extreme. I think that's probably one of the main reasons that Ephedra was pulled from the market I think people doing long-distance truck driving et cetera were abusing it to say awake and I think there were some incidences of, I don't know, probably stroke in some people or high blood pressure in others that caused them to pull off the market. Do you know if there is any of those sympathetic stimulants that maybe don't have such a stimulant effect to change blood pressure or pulse rate but would still have a antihistamine effect or one that had a different mechanism of activity?

Dr. Ray Peat: Currently (inaudible) alternative that's legal is one that’s produced in the brain but it’s a close relative off dopamine and adrenaline. It's called, phenethylamine, PEA.

Andrew Murray: Okay. Phenethylamine.

Dr. Ray Peat: But people again are talking about 500 to a 1,000 or 1,500 milligram doses which I think are crazy. I think a helpful dose would be maybe five or 10 milligrams.

That's the one. PEA gives thiamine a run for it's money for worst tasting substance. 5-10mg doses is nothing too. I bought some from, the now defunct PowderCity, years ago. At around 250mg I can start to feel effects similar to ephedrine, but doesn't last that long.

When I was in my early 20s we used to pop 25mg tabs of Mini Thins we could get at just about any gas station. I bought some Bronkaide (20mg ephedrine) from CVS a few years ago and I found it interesting how it didn't have nearly the same "superman" feeling as you mentioned earlier. I wondered if it had something to do with dopamine neurons burning out as we get older. For that reason, and it's close chemical relation to amphetamines--which have been shown to burn out dopamine neurons, that I wasn't keen on buying any more.

I wrote in another thread how I think adrenaline antagonizes histamine and that is how so many of these adrenergic substances work. I partly got that from wrat Ray said here. Also why I think he has said coffee can be used to offset some allergy symptoms. Andrew Murray has his tendencies to talk over Dr. Peat with his opinions, like in this interview, and wished he let him expand his thoughts more on ephedrine.

 

[Jsaute21]

https://www.amazon.com/Bulksuppleme...ds=bulk+supplements+phenylethylamine&th=1#Ask

Here is bulk supplements version of it. I am intrigued. @haidut what are your thoughts on this supplement?