Exercising More Effectively And With Less Stress

[SolidSteele]

I suppose improve performance. Generate the most force possible through the muscles for strength and speed.

Then there is no conceivable benefit to being in a fasted state. To progress you will need to challenge yourself which will mean that your body is going to be functioning primarily using energy systems that utilize glucose. Generating force is a skill more than a physiologic state so if you wanted to work more effectively you have shorter workouts more frequently whilst providing adequate rest and fuel between sets. Your workouts should also mainly comprise of the actions that you are looking to improve.

 

[chispas]

For someone trying to think outside the box you seem rather close minded and unwilling to see the potential benefits in properly applied training

I don't think I'm unwilling, but I do often struggle to see the benefits...in fact, in terms of a cost/benefit analysis, most of those training methods you mentioned are expensive both metabolically and financially. They seem very inefficient for the time that needs to be invested.

I want: small time investment, maximum muscle utilisation, high stress in the muscle fibres, tremendous flow-on effect to a range of fast-strength exercises, low metabolic cost, and a simple Ray-Peat-inspired recovery method.

It shouldn't be impossible.

 

[SolidSteele]

I want: small time investment, maximum muscle utilisation, high stress in the muscle fibres, tremendous flow-on effect to a range of fast-strength exercises, low metabolic cost, and a simple Ray-Peat-inspired recovery method.

I'm not sure you quite understand how the body adapts to exercise. Are you familiar with the SAID principle? I think you need to get a bit more specific with what you are looking to achieve and work from there.

 

[chispas]

Then there is no conceivable benefit to being in a fasted state. To progress you will need to challenge yourself which will mean that your body is going to be functioning primarily using energy systems that utilize glucose. Generating force is a skill more than a physiologic state so if you wanted to work more effectively you have shorter workouts more frequently whilst providing adequate rest and fuel between sets. Your workouts should also mainly comprise of the actions that you are looking to improve.

I don't understand the relationship between glucose and muscle usage? I thought muscles used fatty acids for their contraction?

 

[SolidSteele]

I don't understand the relationship between glucose and muscle usage? I thought muscles used fatty acids for their contraction?

Muscles use ATP for their contractions. That ATP can can come from glucose or fatty acids. As you work harder you body shift towards more glucose usage.

I would recommend looking around KhanAcademy.com to get a better idea of how your body works. It will fill in some blanks.

 

[WestCoaster]

There is a benefit (a very large one at that) to training fasted IF your cortisol is under control. It's acute spikes which a very beneficial both for losing weight/toning up, and with the release of HGH. The problem is though, people take it to the extreme. Training fasted does not mean training every single solitary time fasted, while training 5-6 days a week. If you ever want to give your metabolism a swift kick in the gonads, that's one of the best ways. Believe me, your body will tell you when it's appropriate to train fasted, and when it isn't.

OP, try this, because it seems to work for a lot of people in a round about way; decide whatever goals your aiming for and take this principle into mind: The body has a general knack to seek balance. It will do everything in it's power to seek the path of least resistance for whatever activity you want to throw at it. For example, if you persist on doing squats your body will want to build up the leg muscles ASAP to handle the load if it perceives squats are regular routine in your life. Yes this is obviously common sense and a "well duh" moment, but lets look at this further. If you want to lose weight per say, engage in activities where your body will perceive carrying extra body weight as completely detrimental. Things like pull-ups, dips, rope climb, ladder climb, sprints, swimming, gymnast style exercises etc.. Carrying a spare tire around your waist will make said activities very very difficult, many people claim and exhibit results of weight loss simply by making those exercises a focal point.

Also think of it this way, you ever notice how athletes in their respective sports generally all have the same body type? All sprinters are built the same, all power lifters, Olympic lifters, strongmen, hockey players, football players (to their respective position), volleyball players, swimmers, sumo, etc.. all have the same body type in their respective sport; ever wonder why that is? Common sense would dictate that it's the activity itself the body is adapting to and creating a body composition that's ideal for the sport. Take for instance power lifters and olympic lifters, and even strongmen, many of them are carrying spare tires. It makes logical sense that to excel at those particular sports, the body can function perfectly fine with a gut. In some cases, it may be beneficial to carry extra weight with heavy lifting exercises like deadlifts for stability.

Decide what your goals are and create an environment to match it. For example, if you want to lose weight, don't engage in heavy compound lifts as a focal point in your training. Make them supplemental, but not a focal point.

 

[SolidSteele]

The body has a general knack to seek balance. It will do everything in it's power to seek the path of least resistance for whatever activity you want to throw at it. For example, if you persist on doing squats your body will want to build up the leg muscles ASAP to handle the load if it perceives squats are regular routine in your life.

Sorry but your example if fundamentally flawed. If you persist on doing squats your primary motor cortex is going to send a signal to your muscle. Your cerebellum having also received the signal is going to predict the outcome and compare that to the feedback from your propriosensors and then make corrections to the movement pattern and improve the coordination of the nerve impulses to your motor unit ultimately resulting in great force production for that movement. The muscle having performed contraction is going to have a hormonal response which given adequate nutrition will adapt. If the sheath of the sarcomere has been damaged a satellite cell will form a patch providing the cell with another nuclei.

Also think of it this way, you ever notice how athletes in their respective sports generally all have the same body type? All sprinters are built the same, all power lifters, Olympic lifters, strongmen, hockey players, football players (to their respective position), volleyball players, swimmers, sumo, etc.. all have the same body type in their respective sport; ever wonder why that is? Common sense would dictate that it's the activity itself the body is adapting to and creating a body composition that's ideal for the sport.

That's actually backwards. When comparing elite athletes it is usually the fact that their frame has a bio-mechanical advantage for a particular task that determines their success. There are exceptions like Bolt who is just a genetic freak.

Take for instance power lifters and olympic lifters, and even strongmen, many of them are carrying spare tires. It makes logical sense that to excel at those particular sports, the body can function perfectly fine with a gut. In some cases, it may be beneficial to carry extra weight with heavy lifting exercises like deadlifts for stability.

The gut on a powerlifter/strongman has more to do with training and releasing GH. GH causes hypertrophy of visceral tissue more so than skeletal muscle. Training volume to achieve a 500kg deadlift for example causes a great deal of stress on the body causing a release of GH that among other thing causes a thickening of the heart wall.

If you want to lose weight per say, engage in activities where your body will perceive carrying extra body weight as completely detrimental. Things like pull-ups, dips, rope climb, ladder climb, sprints, swimming, gymnast style exercises etc.. Carrying a spare tire around your waist will make said activities very very difficult, many people claim and exhibit results of weight loss simply by making those exercises a focal point.

... Body weight exercises work because they generally incorporate the whole body not because you're body think its easier to do it without the gut. They will never compare to the hormonal response of a weighted squat or deadlift. Exercise has almost nothing to do with losing weight...

Sorry @WestCoaster for dismantling your post but I hate BroScience...

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Sorry but your example if fundamentally flawed. If you persist on doing squats your primary motor cortex is going to send a signal to your muscle. Your cerebellum having also received the signal is going to predict the outcome and compare that to the feedback from your propriosensors and then make corrections to the movement pattern and improve the coordination of the nerve impulses to your motor unit ultimately resulting in great force production for that movement. The muscle having performed contraction is going to have a hormonal response which given adequate nutrition will adapt. If the sheath of the sarcomere has been damaged a satellite cell will form a patch providing the cell with another nuclei.

While probably more technically correct your verbose response doesn't make his point less true. Knowing more about the deeper workings of physiology doesn't change the results of techniques learned through experience rather than textbooks.

The gut on a powerlifter/strongman has more to do with training and releasing GH. GH causes hypertrophy of visceral tissue more so than skeletal muscle. Training volume to achieve a 500kg deadlift for example causes a great deal of stress on the body causing a release of GH that among other thing causes a thickening of the heart wall.

Sorry @WestCoaster for dismantling your post but I hate BroScience...

If you hate bro science then you might need to go back to the drawing board with some of your assertions. GH is not the reason for "the gut on powerlifters". The gut on some of the big guys (if not fat from being overweight) is simply from bracing the abdominals against massive heavy weights (Chris Duffin is a good example as he is lean but still has a large solid core). Greater circumference of the core makes for more stability and thus greater load handling. This pushing of the abs out causes them to hypertrophy and thicken. Extended guts in bodybuilders is more likely from Growth Hormone. But this is actually from injecting synthetic growth hormones not from the training releasing natural growth hormone.

 

[amethyst]

I've been browsing the internet reading some information about intermittent fasting (IF), and listening to some of the supposed benefits that promoters of IF claim. Given that so many people who failed their IF attempts are now trying to heal their broken metabolisms via Peat-diet-philosophy, I'm skeptical that it is as beneficial as claimed. I think Peat's view is that it is harmful.

But then, I also wondered if there isn't some advantage to training fasted, but in a very low-intensity and non-stressful way that doesn't see the body lose oxygen or CO2. I see a lot of exercise as being high-intensity, and I wonder if this is the main drawback of combining such demanding physical exertion with the fasted, low glycogen state. I'm thinking something like isometric exercise, or static holds with heavy weights, or paused squats, etc, might be sufficient to create a training effect, while preventing stress otherwise generated by intense exercise. I'm thinking no eccentric or concentric contractions at all.

My other thought was whether supplementing vitamin E through such an exercise routine would help to potentially aid the utilisation of fatty acids by the muscles through the workout. Pubmed evidence would disagree with the idea:

Contraction-induced muscle damage is unaffected by vitamin E supplementation. - PubMed - NCBI
Effect of vitamin E and eccentric exercise on selected biomarkers of oxidative stress in young and elderly men. - PubMed - CBI

I'm skeptical as well.I've tried the IF and high intensity exercise and all it does is make me hungrier later on, so I eat more than my body needs. I am back to gentle walking. A "stop and smell the roses", just appreciating nature kind of thing.

 

[Makrosky]

Yoga is great for stretching, maintaining flexibility and general meditation/relaxation. I don't think it could ever claim to strengthen or grow muscles or effect the metabolism outside of its sympathetic nervous system quietening effects. It can aid in athletics by enhancing recovery from other training modalities though.

I'm not sure if Yoga strengthen muscles, tendons or the CNS but you become more stronger after practising it, no ? How can someone do a pose for a few seconds and after repeated training do it for minutes ? Something must have been strengthened. And... I think it helps metabolism. I think pranarupa has good articles about that. It increases blood circulation, opens energy channels, increases CO2, etc... all this increases metabolism.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

I'm not sure if Yoga strengthen muscles, tendons or the CNS but you become more stronger after practising it, no ? How can someone do a pose for a few seconds and after repeated training do it for minutes ? Something must have been strengthened.

Yes. The technique that has been learned is strengthened or rather better ingrained in the neurological pathways resulting in the correct firing of the right nerves to align and balance the body. The actual muscles not so much.

And... I think it helps metabolism. I think pranarupa has good articles about that. It increases blood circulation, opens energy channels, increases CO2, etc... all this increases metabolism.

I spoke to that with regards to the quietening of the sympathetic nervous system going more towards the parasympathetic end. All these things occur under the rest and digest not fight and flight end of the nervous system spectrum. Any kind of purposeful relaxation technique should accomplish this.

 

[Regina]

Yes. The technique that has been learned is strengthened or rather better ingrained in the neurological pathways resulting in the correct firing of the right nerves to align and balance the body. The actual muscles not so much.


I spoke to that with regards to the quietening of the sympathetic nervous system going more towards the parasympathetic end. All these things occur under the rest and digest not fight and flight end of the nervous system spectrum. Any kind of purposeful relaxation technique should accomplish this.

I'm trying to do this with my aikido lately. Almost no students stay for the zazen (zen meditation) hour after class. It's often just me with my two teachers. The students rather just "kick-****" and leave full of "endorphins." Yoga bores me to tears. I like the interaction and knitting together contact of aikido. I am loving the merging of aikido, zazen and Peat-ing.

 

[TheHound]

Yes. The technique that has been learned is strengthened or rather better ingrained in the neurological pathways resulting in the correct firing of the right nerves to align and balance the body. The actual muscles not so much.


I spoke to that with regards to the quietening of the sympathetic nervous system going more towards the parasympathetic end. All these things occur under the rest and digest not fight and flight end of the nervous system spectrum. Any kind of purposeful relaxation technique should accomplish this.

You seem to be one of the most knowledgeable on exercise on this forum (maybe it's just your display picture influencing me here), but how much volume do you do in your training sessions? I seem to need quite a bit of volume to progress, especially in regards to increasing my bench. I was considering GZCL Jacked and Tan 2.0. Have you heard of this or done something similar with quite as much volume?

 

[Gl;itch.e]

You seem to be one of the most knowledgeable on exercise on this forum (maybe it's just your display picture influencing me here), but how much volume do you do in your training sessions? I seem to need quite a bit of volume to progress, especially in regards to increasing my bench. I was considering GZCL Jacked and Tan 2.0. Have you heard of this or done something similar with quite as much volume?

I have always been fairly low volume with my training. I have no doubts I could progress a little faster with more volume but I also believe I would have to be extra aggressive with maintaining my tissues to prevent injury. I found a moderate volume and frequency of training tends to be where I do best.

 

[vulture]

@Gl;itch.e
Do you have any insight on weight lifting vs powerlifting vs high reps high volume training and it's influence over hormones?
I'm used to Mark Rippetoe way of training and years ago tried a powerlifting workout. Right now I'm in a Crossfit box and can practice weightlifting with the equipment, but I'm currently performing 3x5 Rippetoe's starting strength routine cycled with some 2x8 weeks
I'm gonna read Peats view on working out

 

[DuggaDugga]

Avoid anything that depletes your hepatic glycogen to the point of cortisol-mediated gluconeogensis.
Endurance exercise, or extended "cardio" (misnomer, in my opinion), and the intensity routines such as crossfit are some of the worst things you can do as they increase cortisol, increase prolactin, decrease testosterone, decrease thyroid function, and impact everything from libido to immune function in exactly the way you'd expect from physiological stress.
Any exercise that leads to anaerobic metabolism (the inability to use oxygen) is going to flood your system with lactic acid. Lactic acid conversion back to pyruvate is an expensive and inefficient process, a signal to your body to down-regulate physiological processes that are non-essential to survive short-term stressors.
Exercise and circulating cortisol levels: the intensity threshold effect. - PubMed - NCBI
Corticotroph axis sensitivity after exercise in endurance-trained athletes. - PubMed - NCBI
Exercise intensity and its effects on thyroid hormones. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of exercise and physical fitness on the pituitary-thyroid axis and on prolactin secretion in male runners. - PubMed - NCBI
The effect of exhaustion exercise on thyroid hormones and testosterone levels of elite athletes receiving oral zinc. - PubMed - NCBI
Exercise-Induced Immunodepression in Endurance Athletes and Nutritional Intervention with Carbohydrate, Protein and Fat—What Is Possible, What Is Not?

Moderate resistance training that provides an anabolic stimulus is the best way to decrease body fat, increase tesosterone, and has benefits like promotion of hippocampus-dependent memory function.

The main thing is to note how you feel some time after the exercise. The cortisol-mediated, mild euphoria from high intensity/endurance exercise (runner's high) is short-lived and I think most people experienced suppressed appetite and a dip in mood following. It's been my experience that following moderate, resistance training my appetite is increased, libido increased, lean body mass increased, focus/mental acuity increased, etc.

 

[vulture]

Great answer. But could you specify on "moderate"? What's your routine? I think Mark Rippetoe's point of view is interesting, short (5 reps) sets, only 3 of them, 3 or 4 compound exercises a day. His book (Starting strength) looks pretty useful to learn basic movements. Also they guy is saturated fat advocate, but I'm not sure about his PUFA opinions, gonna check out soon.

 

[DuggaDugga]

Great answer. But could you specify on "moderate"? What's your routine? I think Mark Rippetoe's point of view is interesting, short (5 reps) sets, only 3 of them, 3 or 4 compound exercises a day. His book (Starting strength) looks pretty useful to learn basic movements. Also they guy is saturated fat advocate, but I'm not sure about his PUFA opinions, gonna check out soon.

"Moderate" to me is anything that is challenging but doesn't push me into hyperventilation, muscle failure. I think the whole "no pain, no gain" thing is diametrically opposed to what we know about stress and injury and their effects on well-being.
I don't plan my work-outs really. I lift weights 2-3 days a week. I with one or two big compound lifts (dead lift, squats, bench), up to 6-8 reps or so. Then I usually pick back/biceps, triceps/chest, any of the naturally complementing lifts. I opt for free weights rather than machines. If I start feeling any pain I stop. I go as long as I'm enjoying it and feel it's productive. Then I do 20-30 minutes of stretching. Then I eat a bunch of fruit and cheese, maybe a hard-boiled egg, before leaving. Nothing fancy, just anabolic stimulus followed by glycogen restoration and bio-available protein to muffle any cortisol that might have been provoked.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

@Gl;itch.e
Do you have any insight on weight lifting vs powerlifting vs high reps high volume training and it's influence over hormones?
I'm used to Mark Rippetoe way of training and years ago tried a powerlifting workout. Right now I'm in a Crossfit box and can practice weightlifting with the equipment, but I'm currently performing 3x5 Rippetoe's starting strength routine cycled with some 2x8 weeks
I'm gonna read Peats view on working out

I guess it depends on what you really want to accomplish. Its all stress of varying kinds, and at the end of the day you will have to accept that stress of this kind is not avoidable. You can mitigate its most extreme effects by choosing to train appropriately for your goal and then address diet and other lifestyle factors around it.

From a strictly peat approach something like Olympic lifting is probably more "healthy".

What do you want to get out of your training?

 

[vulture]

I'm about 67 yo 68 KG and 1.82 m tall, I obviously wanted to pack a lot more muscle, being stronger, but right now my testosterone and libido is damn low, so, I'd like to raise it ASAP as main objective, so I'm willing to sacrifice weight gaining to boost testosterone, maybe when I'm satisfied with my libido I could focus on being even bigger. I'm a newbie in all these Peat and physiology stuff
Thanks bro