1. Cocoa Butter - Organic & Fair Trade Certified
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice
  2. **NEW** BL11 - Orange, Red & Infrared Therapy Body Light
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Charcoal Soap - For Deep Cleansing
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Orange & Red Light Therapy Device - LGS1
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Organic Cocoa Powder
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Metabasoap - Handcrafted Soap
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice
  7. Cascara Sagrada Powder From Farmalabor In Italy
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice
  8. **NEW Mini Body Light** MBL1 - Orange & Red Light Therapy Mini Body Light
    CLICK HERE!
    Dismiss Notice

Exercise Induced Insomnia?

Discussion in 'Insomnia, Sleep Issues' started by LucasZ, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. LucasZ

    LucasZ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    Hello all,

    I've got another thread here about sleeping difficulties, but that's mainly solved now! Thanks peaters! I've been having troubles with this for years.

    My current regimen:
    5mg doxepin
    3mg taurine
    3 capsules ZMA

    And i sleep like 7-8 hours through the night! It's like a miracle. Sometimes i don't even take anything :)
    But nonetheless, i still have problems sleeping. After working out. Even low intensity workouts in the morning destroy my sleep somehow. I do fall asleep pretty fast, but wake up after 2-3 hours with hot flashes and sweating allot. The day after all my muscles are sore and i got a feeling like waking up with a hangover. If i add more weight my muscles get really irritated and i feel really stressed, tired and almost like i'm getting sick.

    What is this? I've been to so many doctor's now, and they all say that workout is good for sleep. But why do i react so differently? I used to train allot years ago (approx 5-6x a week) and suddenly this occurred. I think it has something to do with cortisol or something.

    I eat enough calories, do a cooling down, tried numerous supplements, but can't seem to find my answer alone or with medical help. Even tried 30mins between sets, lol. Also tried stopping for a while, but the problems still occurs...

    Here are some photo's. I haven't been working out for months now... And before that it was like 20% the intensity i was used too. But i am still fit...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    I have absolutely no idea what's going on... It's making me crazy
     
  2. JustAGuy

    JustAGuy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Gender:
    Male
    Do you know if it is worse after CNS intensive exercises such as squats and deadlifts? I have given those up for good since they always make me wake up at night and give me nightmares.
     
  3. Albina

    Albina Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    91
    Gender:
    Female
    This happens to me, too. I’ve decreased my exercise so much that all is do is some walking and it can still occur. I was wondering if it has to do with histamine release.
     
  4. LCohen

    LCohen Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    257
    Are you guys having cold hands & feet ? Are you having something like fast-pounding heart too ?

    Exercise spikes adrenaline levels. If you are drinking too much water with too little salt, you are adrenaline will stay high. Adrenaline load = insomnia
     
  5. Albina

    Albina Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    91
    Gender:
    Female
    Yes, definitely cold hands and feet. Pounding heart when I wake up in middle of night but still bradycardic. The water and salt doesn’t seem to make a difference. It seems like I have ‘spells’ of this intense almost manic situation at night which can last days. The only things that will stop it are no exercising and Valium at bedtime. I do have other histamine issues so I thought the increased dairy, meats, gelatin are the culprit and the exercise makes the cup runneth over so to speak.
     
  6. OP
    LucasZ

    LucasZ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    It's worse with deadlifts and squats indeed. But it occurs with most exercise.

    Exactly the same... Well walking doesn't hurt me though, except it's high intensity (climbing mountains etc).

    I sometimes have cold hands/feets during the day and fast pounding hart also. I think my salt intake is adequate but i can always try. I do think it somewehere related with cortisol and adrenaline alright.

    When i wake up during the night after exercise, i'm sweaty as hell and my skin feels like it's burning. Running thoughts and pounding heart.
    Doxepin is one of the strongest histamine agonist, so histamine doesn't seem the culprit for me at least.

    I've scoured the internet for this problem, but no one seems to have an answer...
     
  7. JustAGuy

    JustAGuy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Gender:
    Male
    I have similar problem and I never “fixed” it just personally think the body is releasing too much adrenaline. Things which helped me basically involved reducing CNS stress as much as possible, below some things I found that causes my body to feel less stressed from exercise.
    - Doing exercises laying or seated whenever possible.
    - Doing machine variations of exercises (e.g.) leg press and no squat .
    - Making more exercises uni-lateral (1 legged leg press vs 2 legged).
    - Drastically reducing leg exercise volume.
    - Slowing down repetition speed.
    - Look for wether higher rep ranges feel less stressful for you than lower rep ranges.
    - Take full breaks from exercise every now and then (1-2 weeks off, was super hard for me to do at first)
    - Workout smarter/with less volume (try to realise you can get 80% of the results for 30-40% of the work, there is a massive diminishing return with more volume so just never mind those extra sets)
    - Try to always leave the gym feeling like you got way more energy left, never tire yourself or try too hard (also very hard for me, I am the type who can just keep going and going. Result is feeling fine on same day but very bad sleep and feeling crap the next day).

    Another thing I would like you to think about, at least that was my observation, I literally NEVER see a natural powerlifter who is lean and feels good during the day. They all either carry a lot of excess weight or look (and feel, I asked them) fatigued .
    I think for many people doing a lot of things like heavy squats and deadlifts weekly is just not sustainable on a low body fat percentage. The only people who manage this seem to be lifting very low volume or very low intensity and have tons of experience in knowing when to hold back , this seems super rare and I never see such people.
     
  8. OP
    LucasZ

    LucasZ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    I've already tried tied numerous times. A few days ago i just did some pushups and pullups with allot of rest. This resulted in feeling like crap 2 days, and sleeping even worse.

    I think my CNS is just over stimulated. I think i just have to take allot of rest. When i'm resting my pulse is still around 80 bpm. Normally it's 50?
    I found a website describing exactly what I've experiencing: My Experience with Overtraining and CNS Fatigue |

    Code:
    CNS Fatigue Symptoms
    [LIST]
    [*]Head aches
    [*]Joint aches (specifically joints, not muscles)
    [*]Poor skill execution – inconsistent execution of skills you can do
    [*]Lower energy
    [*]Poor sleep quality – disturbed sleep
    [*]Lower motivation
    [*]Flu-like feelings (without the blocked nose)
    [*]Fever
    [*]Forgetfulness
    [*]Low concentration
    [/LIST]
    
     
  9. Andman

    Andman Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2017
    Messages:
    285
    cold hands and feet? normal resting pulse 50?
    hypothyroid bro
     
  10. JustAGuy

    JustAGuy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Gender:
    Male
    If you feel like crap after doing way less in my experience it is due to running off adrenaline before, I always have this when I deload, it takes like nearly a week to go away before you start feeling better.
     
  11. Runenight201

    Runenight201 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    How is your cardiorespiratory fitness? Do you get out of breath easily while running?

    When you wake up, how hungry are you? Are you able to fall right back to sleep?
     
  12. jitsmonkey

    jitsmonkey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2015
    Messages:
    729
    this simply sounds like a running out of fuel issue
    either poorly fueled pre workout
    poorly fueled post workout
    poorly fueled pre-bed
    one or two or all of the above
    fortunately that's a simple easy fix with a little bit of curiosity and experimentation.
     
  13. foodandtheworld

    foodandtheworld Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2018
    Messages:
    101
    Gender:
    Male
    Exercise induced insomnia is a real thing, but I think it's probably more like a hypo-metabolism/hypothyroid state that is the fundamental cause. I would have really terrible sleep while I was over-exercising - taking more than an hour to fall asleep, waking up 5 times a night. I had to cut out exercise completely except for relaxing walks, and do refeeding for several months to recover. Supplements aren't the way out from this and neither is a minor adjustment to the food you are eating. This is a systemic issue in your body that needs time to heal. I recommend Kate Deering's book if you haven't read it. She was a chronic over-exerciser but recovered. It's called "How To Heal Your Metabolism" and is based on Ray Peat's work: https://www.amazon.com/How-Heal-Your-Metabolism-Happiness/dp/1511585625
    I think her calorie suggestions are a bit lower though if one is fully recovering from under-eating/over-exercising.
     
  14. Runenight201

    Runenight201 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes I believe OP is exhibiting classic overtraining symptoms. All exercise should be abated until meaningful rest is achieved for multiple days in a row and energy levels are consistent.

    When returning to exercise, I think it's paramount to focus on supporting cardiorespiratory fitness, rather than just resistance training, as I have a theory that this could raise the CO2 setpoint and produce more optimal health, although I don't know the exact mechanisms of this and want to look further into how this exactly would be so.

    I can confidently say that proper adaption to cardiorespiratory exercise (with no hyperventilation present, ie mouthbreathing) will produce beneficial endocrine responses in which the cortisol/adrenaline responses to a stressor will diminish, due to adaptation of the physical stress of cardiorespiratory exercise. I think the biggest mistake Peaters make is the suppression of the catecholamine system with sugars, which while beneficial as a short term therapy, is ultimately unsustainable as its just not possible to constantly be able to ingest sugars everywhere we go. There has to be some ability to rely on the catecholamine system for mood maintenance, energy, and focus during periods when food isn't available, and maintaining this flexibility allows for better sleep, as the catecholamine hormones are released the longer we go into sleep. Being very insensitive to this system, which would occur in a person who relies on sugars consistently to keep this suppressed, would result in disturbed sleep whenever sufficient calories aren't achieved prior to bedtime, as the body will invariable have a very intense response to the high levels of cortisol and adrenaline in the body (as evident by the OP's sweating, heat flashes, general discomfort). However, with proper adaptation to this system, sleep will be able to be maintained, as the surge will be attenuated. (my theory)

    Here's a graph showing the decrease of stress hormones as a function of time to the same exercise intensity.
    upload_2018-10-19_20-51-29.png

    And another showing decreased stress response to a psychological stressor in trained individuals vs untrained individuals

    upload_2018-10-19_20-52-18.png

    Proper adaptation to exercise in otherwise healthy adults is KEY to good health in my opinion, and is something a lot of us Peaters neglect.
     
  15. jitsmonkey

    jitsmonkey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2015
    Messages:
    729

    By definition "exercise induced insomina" is underfueling either temporally or globally. (yes, too much stress re: output may be a factor as well... ie. "over training")
    Especially if it is insomina induced by fairly non stressful efforts vs high intensity efforts
    it likely can be remedied by temporal fueling vs jumping to larger conclusions like hypo metobolism or estrogen as has been suggested.
    ALL are possible issues
    but simply altering fuel around activity and or sleep is the simplest, cheapest and least invasive
    first experiment.
     
  16. Spartan300

    Spartan300 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2018
    Messages:
    132
    Gender:
    Male
    @Runenight201

    I think you're saying that a level of fitness is required to support exercise/workouts & the ability to recover from them? This is something I have been thinking about recently.

    I've been experiencing similar problems to the OP for some time now & have backed off workout intensity etc but am still struggling. In spite of continuing to lift weights & work out I have worked at a desk based job for the last 20yrs or so & I now think my general fitness has declined as a consequence (along with aging..) which may be compromising my ability to recover from my workouts.
     
  17. OP
    LucasZ

    LucasZ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    Only cold hands and feet if i sleep like crap. For the rest of the time i'm always hot lol, even in winter. Resting pulse is around 80.
    I understand, but it's taking way longer then a week... I feel way worse if i do more. If i do a little bit i feel OK, but then at night the insomnia kicks in (again: worse on harder workouts). Then i feel utterly ***t for 1-2 days.
    Well it was pretty good actually, but cardio seems to worsen the symptoms allot...

    When i'm awake i'm not really hungry, and it's hard to fall asleep again.
    So you have absolutely no idea what i consume on a day, but you seem to know that it's already insufficient? Are you a wizard?

    My food consist of 6-7 meals a day, which contain 2-3 warm meals (mostly with sweat potatoes, brown rice, beans, etc. Allot of oats, greek yogurt, honey, fruits, etc. I still like i workout 4-5 times a week. Daily intake is around 3200-3500 kcal.
    Thanks I'll read up. I don't know what to think about over-training, because many doctor's i visited and told about these symptoms tell me it doesn't exist. Especially in amateurs.
    Thanks allot for your advice. I think i'll follow up your advice and stop working out for a while. At least this my sleep is improved and consistent for a few weeks. I'll continue my high protein diet to aid recovery. When i start feeling better I'll slowly add cardio.
    My thought's exactly. I've been checked medically. Nothing was out of the ordinary. I think I've had to much stressors at a certain point (work, family, etc ) and because of that didn't recuperate enough from training. Which i was previously. And this started to accumulate. I went to several sleeping clinics but they advised me to continue training, because exercise is good for sleep. Even though i told them several times that it had worsened my insomnia.

    I eat around 3200-3500 kcal a day. Split into 6 meals. Two of them are warm meals (mostly asian and mexican kitchen). So allot of brown rice, beans, vegetables, chicken, turkey, fish, sweat potatoes, eggs, whole grains, etc. Sugars are mostly eaten pre-, post and during workout. During a banana and dextrose. Post work out is a shake with whey, oats, fruit juice, creatine, etc.

    Before bed i mostly eat greek yogurt, banana and some honey.
     
  18. Runenight201

    Runenight201 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    846
    Gender:
    Male
    Your overall stress levels are probably stuck in an elevated mode from overtraining as well as these other life stressors you've mentioned, so your body needs some serious relaxation and rest. I don't see much fat in your diet, but eating some very satiating meals with lots of sugar, salt, starch, and fat could do you a world of good in terms of stress reduction and relaxation, on top of some very light walking in the sun, good music, good friends, Epsom salt baths and/or magnesium supplementation, on top of any other stress reduction technique you can think of/research. You might gain a little bit of weight, so don't go super far with this, but in terms of recovering your energy levels and sleep I think this would be very helpful.
     
  19. OP
    LucasZ

    LucasZ Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    32
    Thank you so much for your advice :)

    I already added ZMA (contains magnesium) in my pre sleep stack along with chamomile tea. The yoghurt is 10% fat :) But i'll add some more fat. I will also eat some more home marinated olives (these contain allot of salt + fats). I don't care about the weight gaining. I want to go forward lol :)
     
  20. fradon

    fradon Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2017
    Messages:
    605

    it seems like your serotonin is low. also when you excerise you should produce endorphins which block pain. serotonin helps release endorphins. if your endorphins were high you would not feel so sore the next day.

    you said:

    The day after all my muscles are sore and i got a feeling like waking up with a hangover. If i add more weight my muscles get really irritated and i feel really stressed, tired and almost like i'm getting sick.

    you could need more of these

    mag
    zinc
    b vitamins
    vitamin c

    i see you are taking three zma tablets. that might be too much and here's why. zinc and mag lower acth the hormones that helps releases cortisol which helps break down body fat and glucose to use fuel in time of stress and exercise. so taking all that zinc and mag could be lowering your cortisol which triggers a stress response of adrealine becasue you have some sort of low blood sugar.

    one more thing Doxepin

    do you take this two hours before bed for sleep. since this is a type of ssri it could also signal low serotonin

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5548844/pdf/11920_2017_Article_816.pdf
     
Loading...