Exercise Increases Endotoxin Clearance By Increasing DHEA Levels

[ShotTrue]

Are you being sarcastic? Ray peat has said many times concentric resistance training is good for you.



He also pointed out muscles use fatty acids at rest, so the more muscle the better.

@powerlifter I was, because recently people who refuse to exercise have taken upon themselves to try and prove that exercise is actually unhealthy...
Certain forms certainly are, but exercise is not the reason someone has a poor diet or is undereating, and as you said the more muscle the stronger the organism, and in my experience it is a really good recovery tool from points of bad health

 

[Cirion]

So you are completely ignoring the fact that exercise helps the body reduce inflammation and stress hormones. You are also ignoring the fact that the greater the androgens and muscle mass the more efficient the body is at using the same amount of nutrients and also the greater the metabolism.

I had a TSH of 10 and even while undereating, I managed to gain 10lbs of muscle mass a year and my body became healthier and healthier. Nothing consistently made me feel better than exercising, and there are plenty of hypothyroid men that lift weights.
I've had plenty of hormone imbalances and other issues at this point, and doing a weight training routine to the best of my ability massively helps my recovery, far more than just eating enough. Exercise is definitely a recovery tool imo, your hypothetical healthy ripped guy is likely someone that just abused anabolic steroids

With all due respect, I doubt you have as much exercise experience under your belt as me.

Exercise absolutely does not reduce stress in the hypothyroid individual, it increases it. This is from experience, not a study.

Yeah plenty of hypothyroid men lift weights but that doesn't mean it's helpful.

Nothing hypothetical about it. I was almost stage-ready ripped at one point and very lean for a couple years beyond that of my life but also very unhealthy, worst in my life even.

Anyway exercise CAN be helpful I'm not saying it's not ever helpful, but it's simply not helpful if you're really sick with already no energy to spare. It's just not, it's my experience.

There may be value in ultralight dumbbell work that causes zero stress/lactic acid buildup in the hypo individual but beyond that, not so much.

 

[lampofred]

Exercise Increases Endotoxin Clearance By Increasing DHEA Levels - Title of this thread

Moderate exercise increases testosterone/DHEA but lowers progesterone (excessive exercise lowers both androgens and progesterone and increases estrogen and is disastrous for unhealthy people). Progesterone is a "higher" hormone relative to androgens. So maybe exercise is good in some situations (like if you are old and have frail muscles that need to be worked) but it is not necessary for optimal health. For example, kids don't need aerobic exercise. The benefits of most exercise probably are from the increased CO2 and body temperature, not from the actual running around.

 

[ShotTrue]

Moderate exercise increases testosterone/DHEA but lowers progesterone. Progesterone is a "higher" hormone relative to androgens. So maybe exercise is good in some situations (like if you are old and have frail muscles that need to be worked) but it is not necessary for optimal health. The benefits of most exercise probably are from the increased CO2 and body temperature, not from the actual running around.

Vitamin D also lowers progesterone. Progesterone seems to be anti androgenic, at least from what I've seen through people supplementing on here. I need to research progesterone myself so I know more of it's properties.
So are you saying the ongoing reduction of endotoxin, pufa, adrenaline, stress hormones is not a good reason to continue? Or the added benefits of more and more muscle mass which takes years to accrue?
You do raise a better point than most so far imo

 

[Cirion]

The problem is that hypothyroid individuals generate lactic acid AT REST. During exertion (exercise) the lactic acid and adrenaline increase can be 20, 100x that of a healthy individual (Not a typo). Tell me again how that is lowering stress?

Even at rest, the adrenaline in a hypothyroid individual can be 20x of a healthy person.

Lactic acid is directly antagonistic to CO2. Increase lactic acid, decrease CO2 and increase overall inflammation, not decrease.

 

[powerlifter]

@powerlifter I was, because recently people who refuse to exercise have taken upon themselves to try and prove that exercise is actually unhealthy...
Certain forms certainly are, but exercise is not the reason someone has a poor diet or is undereating, and as you said the more muscle the stronger the organism, and in my experience it is a really good recovery tool from points of bad health

Well, the context is very important. People tend to lean on extremes a lot lately . When we talk about exercise we do not always think about an elite athlete, we generally assume that we talk about normal people so 2-4 times a week 30-40 min exercise(resistance training) is on average very good for many people.

 

[ShotTrue]

With all due respect, I doubt you have as much exercise experience under your belt as me.

Exercise absolutely does not reduce stress in the hypothyroid individual, it increases it. This is from experience, not a study.

Yeah plenty of hypothyroid men lift weights but that doesn't mean it's helpful.

Nothing hypothetical about it. I was almost stage-ready ripped at one point and very lean for a couple years beyond that of my life but also very unhealthy, worst in my life even.

Anyway exercise CAN be helpful I'm not saying it's not ever helpful, but it's simply not helpful if you're really sick with already no energy to spare. It's just not, it's my experience.

There may be value in ultralight dumbbell work that causes zero stress/lactic acid buildup in the hypo individual but beyond that, not so much.

You don't have any reason to believe I have less exercise experience than you, in terms of the three main lifts I was advanced in squat and deadlift and intermediate in bench pressing. I don't really need to go into it but I have lifted for years and grew about 100 lbs heavier in 6 years, that's without fat
Personally I can agree that in terms of hypothyroidism, I'm not sure weight training is that helpful. I never did it to fix hypothyroid, though in general my energy increased through other benefits it provided.
If you were stage ready you were probably starving yourself and not fueling properly, which I also agree can lead to problems, possibly ascerbated by additional nutritional requirements from exercise. That's not the exercise's fault though

In terms of my experience, it does help with the energy issues from estrogen/progesterone imbalance or too high stress hormones.
I've basically been bedridden for a few months, but one day I had high dopamine more energy so I started lifting again. Even if it takes a week for me to rest up, I manage to go the gym and feel a lot better the day after, definitely helping with my recovery. I use redbull as a crutch and try to eat enough, and if I can't handle it I go home

 

[lampofred]

Vitamin D also lowers progesterone. Progesterone seems to be anti androgenic, at least from what I've seen through people supplementing on here. I need to research progesterone myself so I know more of it's properties.
So are you saying the ongoing reduction of endotoxin, pufa, adrenaline, stress hormones is not a good reason to continue? Or the added benefits of more and more muscle mass which takes years to accrue?
You do raise a better point than most so far imo

That is actually why I don't supplement Vitamin D and prefer to get what I can from light exposure. Progesterone is anti-androgenic but it's a good anti-androgenic, unlike estrogen. Think of Vegeta vs Nappa from DBZ... Vegeta is smaller, less bulky, less muscular, but is the superior one...

If the reduction of endotoxin, stress hormones, etc. was actually due to exercise, then yes I would say it's a good reason to continue. But it's not specifically due to exercise, anything that reduces cortisol will have the same effect. Dr. Peat says just a few bodyweight squats, pushups, situps etc. 2-3 times a day is enough to get the anti-cortisol effect, so anything more than that is just unnecessarily increasing lactic acid, lowering progesterone, and draining your body's nutrient reserves.

The only benefit of exercise that is hard to get anywhere else imo is the CO2 exposure. But you can replicate that either by taking thyroid or by inhaling a full breath and holding it until your heart starts pounding and you start sweating, doing that several times a day (maybe replace 30 minutes of running with 30 minutes of breath holding, idk). This will increase both androgens and progesterone. The elevated body temperature can be replicated with just a hot bath (without wetting your head because an overheated brain is actually very stressful).

Exercise does powerfully lower cortisol if you are not producing excess lactic acid, which is why so many people love it, but it does it at the cost of lower progesterone, which is why I think Peat is so strongly anti-exercise.

 

[Cirion]

but one day I had high dopamine more energy so I started lifting again.

You actually kind of proved my point. Your body will tell you when it has energy for "luxury activities" like working out. Your body told you it had energy, and you listened.

The mistake is to constantly go to the gym when you have no energy or the mood for it.

When I was healthy, I also got this "urge" to workout. Your body is not stupid. It's tired because it wants sleep, its energetic because it wants to work out. I'm not saying exercise is always bad 100% always. But if you're tired you need to eat and freakin rest, not workout.

When you feel this "Craving" to go to the gym. This is when the gym will actually benefit you the most. It's not even necessarily in contradiction to the original post (clearing of endotoxin). It's your bodys' way of telling you hey I have energy, let's spend it on something helpful. Again, your body is good at telling you things. It's best to listen to it.

 

[ShotTrue]

Well, the context is very important. People tend to lean on extremes a lot lately . When we talk about exercise we do not always think about an elite athlete, we generally assume that we talk about normal people so 2-4 times a week 30-40 min exercise(resistance training) is on average very good for many people.

+1

 

[ShotTrue]

You actually kind of proved my point. Your body will tell you when it has energy for "luxury activities" like working out. Your body told you it had energy, and you listened.

The mistake is to constantly go to the gym when you have no energy or the mood for it.

When I was healthy, I also got this "urge" to workout. Your body is not stupid. It's tired because it wants sleep, its energetic because it wants to work out. I'm not saying exercise is always bad 100% always. But if you're tired you need to eat and freakin rest, not workout.

Well that was the only day I wanted to exercise. This is the past couple of weeks so probably 1 out of 9 times I was motivated to exercise. And I definitely took more rest days as needed. I even got to the point I was too hungry or lacking energy to lift so I went to grocery store to buy breakfast taco material so I could energize up to exercise fully ( I didn't cuz it was late lol) but I meant to
Usually I feel better when I go the gym when not in the mood for it, but I do agree that sometimes the instinct to not exercise can and should be listed to, my general point is I do feel it can be an effective recovery tool (I am still recovering while just now starting to be able to exercise everyday while relying on redbull. A month ago it was like once a week)

 

[Cirion]

Perhaps the issue I take is that 99% of people workout wrong, and improving androgens from weightlifting without increasing lactic acid probably requires working out at sub-maximal loads that most consider "a waste of time" because it requires lifting loads that are equivalent to "lifting like a girl".

An random personal anecdote:
I actually did this to a degree when really healthy some days. I was on vacation to the beach, and only had like 20 lb db's that I had packed. Keep in mind my max chest presses were using 60-80 lb db's for 8-12 reps, so this is far, far, far below my max 1 rep.

Because these 20 lb DB were all I had, I just did a ton of reps until I just started to feel a "VERY" slight muscle burn (in other words, I still had like 10-20 reps or more in the tank, not even remotely close to failure). And my whole workout was short, like maybe 20 minutes at most.

Afterwards, I noticed a very large increase in libido and energy/mood that lasted the whole day. I had done a bunch of sets/reps at SUPER submaximal loads of like 20-25% of my max, and that was sufficient to signal my body to increase androgens.

In addition, when I look back with 100% honesty, the only workouts that increased my libido and mood with complete consistency were other very light sessions, not too dissimilar to this, far below my 1 rep max. Not these ridiculous 70-90% 1 rep max sessions that crash your hormones.

You may not be able to become a pro bodybuilder on 25% of 1 rep max weights, but I'm thinking it may be almost optimal when it comes to androgens/overall health.

So perhaps, maybe I'll try this method again, as I have some light dumb bells at my house I can play with.

 

[redsun]

No words, you all are detached from reality, or just want to rationalize one's laziness

"Virtually everyone is disagreeing with me, but I'm definitely still right. They are all just fat and lazy or whatever."

I suggest you re-read Peat's work on exercise or even read it for the first time and learn something. Clearly you still cling on to mainstream BS about getting diabetics or fat people to exercise or those with chronic fatigue so they can be healthy. Peat is not anti-exercise but has clearly detailed the problems that can arise because of it and this especially true for those with under functioning thyroids and poor diets.

Personally I've never understood the obsession some people have with big muscles to begin with. Most girls don't even want ripped dudes; at best some of them have a mild preference for it.

If you ever have been truly big and lean, especially large traps, chest, upper back, with tight abs and v-taper, you would not be saying this.

Exercise Increases Endotoxin Clearance By Increasing DHEA Levels - Title of this thread

Which does not mean exercise restores health, not even close. Exercise also increases cortisol, adrenaline, can reduce thyroid levels, can induce leaky gut, can reduce androgens if done beyond a certain point, acutely raises FFA levels(and therefore PUFA in the blood) if glycogen is depleted or if exercise is stressful enough which is the main cause for most modern diseases either directly or indirectly.

Vitamin D also lowers progesterone. Progesterone seems to be anti androgenic, at least from what I've seen through people supplementing on here. I need to research progesterone myself so I know more of it's properties.
So are you saying the ongoing reduction of endotoxin, pufa, adrenaline, stress hormones is not a good reason to continue? Or the added benefits of more and more muscle mass which takes years to accrue?
You do raise a better point than most so far imo

I am not sure why you keep saying exercise reduces adrenaline levels when in fact it increases the effectiveness of adrenaline in the long term. I referenced this in the previous thread you babbled in about everyone being soft and what not, and you seem to ignore the fact that exercise has similar effects to NRIs, inhibiting reuptake of noradrenaline.

 

[lampofred]

I am not sure why you keep saying exercise reduces adrenaline levels when in fact it increases the effectiveness of adrenaline in the long term. I referenced this in the previous thread you babbled in about everyone being soft and what not, and you seem to ignore the fact that exercise has similar effects to NRIs, inhibiting reuptake of noradrenaline.

This is actually a good thing imo, but I think it's due to the increase in CO2 (which is why thyroid, bag breathing, even tobacco have the same effect), not because of the actual running.

 

[redsun]

This is actually a good thing imo, but I think it's due to the increase in CO2 (which is why thyroid, bag breathing, even tobacco have the same effect), not because of the actual running.

Noradrenaline is not necessarily bad absolutely I agree. Problem is that exercise does not reduce adrenaline though, when he keeps saying it does. This can pose a problem if you have problems with blood sugar control or pre-existing problems with adrenaline. Things like weight training less than an hour a day generally avoid the adrenaline issue and minimize chance of hypoglycemia, one of the many reasons more people can get away with weightlifting then say cardio or sprints if their health is subpar.

 

[ShotTrue]

"Virtually everyone is disagreeing with me, but I'm definitely still right. They are all just fat and lazy or whatever."

I suggest you re-read Peat's work on exercise or even read it for the first time and learn something. Clearly you still cling on to mainstream BS about getting diabetics or fat people to exercise or those with chronic fatigue so they can be healthy. Peat is not anti-exercise but has clearly detailed the problems that can arise because of it and this especially true for those with under functioning thyroids and poor diets.



If you ever have been truly big and lean, especially large traps, chest, upper back, with tight abs and v-taper, you would not be saying this.



Which does not mean exercise restores health, not even close. Exercise also increases cortisol, adrenaline, can reduce thyroid levels, can induce leaky gut, can reduce androgens if done beyond a certain point, acutely raises FFA levels(and therefore PUFA in the blood) if glycogen is depleted or if exercise is stressful enough which is the main cause for most modern diseases either directly or indirectly.



I am not sure why you keep saying exercise reduces adrenaline levels when in fact it increases the effectiveness of adrenaline in the long term. I referenced this in the previous thread you babbled in about everyone being soft and what not, and you seem to ignore the fact that exercise has similar effects to NRIs, inhibiting reuptake of noradrenaline.

You got a grudge like your name is Kyle and exercise had sex with your mom
I’ll read the whole post later

 

[Cirion]

Noradrenaline is not necessarily bad absolutely I agree. Problem is that exercise does not reduce adrenaline though, when he keeps saying it does. This can pose a problem if you have problems with blood sugar control or pre-existing problems with adrenaline. Things like weight training less than an hour a day generally avoid the adrenaline issue and minimize chance of hypoglycemia, one of the many reasons more people can get away with weightlifting then say cardio or sprints if their health is subpar.

I think intensity has more to do with adrenaline spiking or not. For example - take my given example of working with super low weights. The whole "one hour" thing is very arbitrary and doesn't mean much. If one were to do just a single set of complete max out weights on deadlifts, that one set, for a grand total of less than one minute total working out could spike cortisol for over a week.

In my experience, the relationship between intensity and corresponding adrenaline spike is parabolic/exponential. Some made up numbers might look like this assuming enough reps are done to induce some level of fatigue:

25% 1 rep max - 2x normal adrenaline (resting)
40% 1rm - 4x normal
50% 1 rm - 7x normal
60% 1 rm - 15x normal
75% 1 rm - 50x normal
85% 1 rm - 150x normal
95% 1 rm - 500x normal
100% 1 rm - 2,000x normal

Some #'s may be exaggerated to make a point, but I think you get what I'm saying. Recovery from 25% is almost instant. Recovery from 100% takes 1,000 times as long which could mean as long as 2 weeks or even more.

A great example of this is when I used to do Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 training protocol, and I took it to the extreme. The worst cortisol spike I got in my entire life was also one of my shortest. I did a absolute 110% effort deadlift set (something like 300 lb deadlift for 15 reps... Keep in mind that 350-400 was my 1 rep max so I did close to my max for literally as many reps as my body was physically capable of). The adrenaline spike from this one set was so extreme that I paid for the price for nine days afterwards with energy, mood, soreness etc.

This set was so extreme that I wouldn't be surprised if my adrenaline levels peaked at over 1,000 times the resting value.

 

[redsun]

You got a grudge like your name is Kyle and exercise had sex with your mom
I’ll read the whole post later

If you are suggesting I have a grudge, you are dumber than I thought. Who is the one that mentioned the other in a random post in attempt to mock? That was you. But by all means continue to embarrass yourself by being vulgar and distasteful.

 

[ShotTrue]

If you are suggesting I have a grudge, you are dumber than I thought. Who is the one that mentioned the other in a random post in attempt to mock? That was you. But by all means continue to embarrass yourself by being vulgar and distasteful.

Well you posted twice when I tagged you once, and also you are the only one throwing insults. Also you don't get the Kyle joke it's a meme

 

[ShotTrue]

Noradrenaline is not necessarily bad absolutely I agree. Problem is that exercise does not reduce adrenaline though, when he keeps saying it does. This can pose a problem if you have problems with blood sugar control or pre-existing problems with adrenaline. Things like weight training less than an hour a day generally avoid the adrenaline issue and minimize chance of hypoglycemia, one of the many reasons more people can get away with weightlifting then say cardio or sprints if their health is subpar.

If you read what I wrote before I'm not a fan of long distance cardio or undereating, and blaming undereating on exercise is stupid. "I don't eat enough so therefore exercising is bad" like no, just eat properly