Excipients

Discussion in 'Supplements' started by bradley, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. bradley

    bradley Member

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    I think a discussion on excipients would be beneficial to everyone. Perhaps we could compile a gradated list from worst to least worst, along with an explanation of why each is problematic.

    In Ray's last show with KMUD they mentioned Silica and Titanium dioxide as particularly bad as their particles persorb and cause inflammation and stress in the body.

    Where is magnesium stearate on the spectrum?
    Gelatin seems fine.
    What about Cellulose?

    Thanks!

    [hr][/hr]
    List of Excipients
    *Will be updated as more info is gathered.

    Relatively harmless:
    Gelatin
    Cellulose

    Not too harmful:
    Magnesium Stearate

    Harmful:
    Silica, Silicon Dioxide
    Titanium Dioxide

    Unknown:
    Microcrystalline Cellulose, Hypromellose
     
  2. BingDing

    BingDing Member

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    I think this is a good idea, I started with this thread. I've been wondering about soy sauce since it's fermented soy. White rice with butter, black pepper and soy sauce is one of the few eats I miss on this plan.
     
  3. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    It seems people like Mercola (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/artic ... ngers.aspx) and others are misrepresenting magnesium stearate as dangerous in order to sell his supplements: it's apparently safe

    http://www.wellnessresources.com/health ... _stearate/
     
  4. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    I read some people's testimonials about reacting very badly to microcrystalline cellulose aka avicel. But if I understand Peat correctly, it could be a contaminant used in the manufacturing process, not necessarily avicel itself.
     
  5. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    I have heard Ray say that cellulose is fine.

    Of course gelatin is more than fine.
     
  6. Birdie

    Birdie Member

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    Forgot to say, this is a grrreat idea for a subject!!
     
  7. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

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    bradley, I think magnesium stearate is on the safe end of the spectrum. I'm making a summary page about the opposing viewpoints, and I think I agree with burtlancast that there isn't evidence to show it as harmful at normal doses.

    One thing I haven't figured out is whether the source of the magnesium stearate matters. Does anyone know if the production process creates pure magnesium stearate? Would a palm oil derived version be different than one from soybean oil?
     
  8. OP
    bradley

    bradley Member

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    So far the spectrum is:

    Relatively harmless:
    Gelatin
    Cellulose

    Not too harmful:
    Magnesium Stearate

    Harmful:
    Silica, Silicon Dioxide
    Titanium Dioxide

    Unknown:
    Microcrystalline Cellulose, Hypromellose

    I also see Vegetable Stearate and Vegetarian Stearic Acid. How do this differ from Magnesium Stearate?
     
  9. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

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    As I understand it, vegetable stearate (or "vegetable lubricant") is just magnesium stearate that isn't made from animal fat. And stearic acid (whether from "vegetable" sources or not) is just a component of magnesium stearate. So in my mind, they're all the same class of ingredient.

    If no one else chimes in, I plan to write up the opposing arguments on hypromellose/hydroxypropyl methylcellulose and microcrystalline cellulose in the next couple weeks. It's tough to find information that isn't from people with axes to grind.
     
  10. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    What about povidone and crospovidone? I read they can be very allergenic for some...
     
  11. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

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    For anyone interested, I've finished summarizing the magnesium stearate debate here.

    I'd still welcome input on how much the source and processing of magnesium stearate affects the end product. That's the one thing that's keeping me from not worrying about consuming it.
     
  12. BingDing

    BingDing Member

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    I just gotta ask if that's you, Danno.

    I'm on your side about Magnesium Stearate being safe, all I could find about it's manufacture were generalizations.

    The whole question goes to food science and the industry, googling on "food science" is interesting. We might get academia to answer some questions, who knows?

    I'm not going to avoid Mg Stearate, the fricking bacterial rennet in cheese has me right up against orthorexia nervosa, sometimes. (Not really, it's just damn hard to figure this sh** out).
     
  13. OP
    bradley

    bradley Member

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    Dan, your site is a big help

     
  14. cliff

    cliff Member

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    For a lot of these excipients I think the allergens are from the impurities.
     
  15. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    I agree, good job, Dan!

     
  16. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    I agree, it can be stuff in there that is not listed at all.

     
  17. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

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    Thank you for your kind words Bradley and Lucy, it means a lot. I plan to make the site much more comprehensive as I slowly learn about all the different additives.

    And Lucy, it seems like you're right about povidone/crospovidone being potentially allergenic. Maybe it should be on Bradley's "avoid" list just because it appears to be easy to avoid, and it'd be hard to tell whether it's an allergen for one particular person.

    Regarding Cliff's comment, I've thought about reviewing supplement contaminant reports (like ConsumerLab) to find patterns in which manufacturers are more trustworthy when it comes to impurities. Maybe there's no clear patterns though.
     
  18. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

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    And BingDing, I have no idea who Danno is. Unless you're referring to Hawaii Five-Oh, in which case that's definitely me.
     

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  19. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Hmm, how about talc? I see you didn't classify this as bad on your website, Dan. Ray writes in one of his articles: "Crystals of talc were found in the tumor, that were assumed to have originated from the surgical gloves used during the operation. Talc is now widely recognized as a carcinogen, and is suspected of causing ovarian cancer."

    I'm asking because the mexican Cynomel (T3) he recommends contains talc, and many people here, including me, are taking this.
     
  20. Dan Wich

    Dan Wich Member

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    That's really interesting, Lucy. Talc does look questionable after some quick searching.

    I wonder if he recommends Cynomel as a lesser evil, since the other thyroid supplements I've seen contain several questionable ingredients.

    It's also possible he's mainly concerned with inhalation and genital application (that's what most people seem to question), and that ingesting small amounts isn't too bad...
     
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