Excess Thyroid Increases Estrogen?

[James_001]

One explanation for high estrogen when supplementing thyroid is the increased metabolism from thyroid pushing estrogen out of the tissues into the blood. Similar to what Peat mentions progesterone can do.

I am starting to think that fixing any metabolism issues is a (very) long haul.
It doesn't seem to be: replace the low thyroid/progesterone etc and everything falls into place pretty quickly.
It could be many have a build up of estrogen, heavy metals & other toxins from years of poor health. These get released when trying to restore metabolism. In that situation metabolism would not be corrected until all these toxins are removed. And also going to quick, not using detoxers, poor liver etc increases circulating toxins. Leaving you worse than when you started.

That is my experience over the last years. I do great mentally & energy wise with many supps that increase my metabolism (B6, Preg, Progesterone, thyroid, caffeine etc). However every one of these eventually end up causing high estrogen. I take anti-estrogens to offset this (high dose Aspirin, Vitamin E, Zinc, microsilica etc).

So i just unsure whether the estrogen is being released and slowly detoxed or if the supps are actually generating estrogen and i am pissing against the wind. If it is only released estrogen I sure have a lot as i have been working on it over 10 years...



Yes, this is something never mentioned. You would imagine if the issue was estrogen getting liberated from tissues etc it would be understood/highlighted by Peat etc.

You have been 'peating' for ten years!?

 

[Blossom]

@ecstatichamster

Has anyone powered through the estrogen from the tissues idea and came out the other side, that's the question that I have.

My wife had reactions to pregnenalone that were similar. First, soothing and calming. Hot flashes just STOPPED. Lubrication became better (she is post menopausal). But still very low libido...anyhow, all of a sudden, a few skin eruptions and trouble sleeping...

So should she keep taking pregnenolone and power through, or stop and just hope it all works out?

It's a puzzlement.

I used to make vaginal suppositories for dryness with cocoa butter and vitamin A and they worked well but I ended up not being in menopause after all and the issue resolved. I thought I'd read this from Peat but I've never been able to find the reference again so perhaps I was mistaken and got the idea somewhere else. I know he has written about vaginal suppositories for cervical cancer in one of his books using a combination of the fat soluble vitamins. On the Long Natural Health site the naturopath there recommends Progest-e topically to the vagina for dryness.

 

[James_001]

For me the main ones are: Low body temperature. Quick weight gain. Water retention - bloated stomach. Reduced libido & no night wood. Oily skin.

From what I have read on this site, I am beginning to believe that for males dht is needed to heal metabolism and correct estrogen issues. Have you tried progesterone?

I find progesterone helps a lot of my symptoms, but kills my drive, most likely due to its anti-androgen properties. I think that Supplementing dht would have the same benefits of progesterone, but without the negative effects in males. I am going to try this soon and make a post.

 

[supernature]

I do spent the time reading the two articles from the ex peatarian.com that unexamined_whimsy suggested, and they made a point. I also read the comments and there was very few statements that are straight, like:
"fatigue and water retention are typical hypoT symptoms. If you were hyperT, you should feel like you drank too much coffee (shaky, easily excited etc.)"

A lot of the comments were of complains and uncertainty due to therapy that it seems gives unexpected results, a lot of people are taking something-hormones and they're experiencing gynecomastia, water retention, weight gain etc. It seems they've expected the outcome to be different, it looked to me as a mess, i couldnt figure out whos hypo, hyper or is it hypo but it shows clinical hyper symptoms and the results of the treatments were they right.

Actually, from the majority of people I have heard from, they got estrogen elevation from the thyroid alone. I think a lot of people on these boards get it too, but choose to ignore it and push through, because the theory on thyroid supplementation is just so "impeccable".

Shouldn't the outcome be the same according elevated estrogens, if the thyroid suppl is taken (hypoT takes thyroid to balance low thyroid output) or the body is overstimulating its thyroid (hyperT due to unproper body function) ?

I mean if you are hypoT you take suppl and one ends up with elevated estrogens - not good, if you are hyperT the body is overstimulating itself and one ends up with elevated estrogens, again - not good..? confusing))

 

[supernature]

Many "hyperthyroid" people are actually hypo...

Prove it))

What should that look like in terms of Thyroid biomarkers: PTH, TSH, RT3, RT4... for hypoT, hyperT, and the symptoms associated to them?

 

[tara]

so it could be that the excess estrogens that are being eliminated are very little (due to limited liver capacity excretion) are being reabsorbed again in the body, which could be another reason of estrogen build up, cant be?

This is why Peat recommends daily raw carrot salad as one of the first things to try for balancing hormones.

 

[Brian]

From what I have read on this site, I am beginning to believe that for males dht is needed to heal metabolism and correct estrogen issues.

I definitely think DHT will help, but I think the major cause of low metabolism in a lot of people (male or female) is high serotonin, since most people report low metabolism after some type of chronic major stress. Usually from low calories/nutrients for an extended amount of time. Often from doing something stupid like low calorie, low carb or skipping meals and staying up way too late chronically, while getting no morning and daytime sun. All of these together are a good recipe for increasing brain serotonin and becoming vulnerable to a small intestine infection, which is exactly what you would expect for an organism undergoing a chronic stress.

Since the dopamine/serotonin ratio in the brain is one of the major things that controls steroid production I think it is the main problem that needs to be addressed. Many hours of daily sun light and going to bed early, while loading up on magnesium and starchy carbs are what I attribute to getting my steroid production back on-line. Also, a little strength training. Enough to stimulate DHT production, but not enough to chronically raise cortisol.

But it makes sense that anything that helps lower serotonin would be helpful, including DHT or maybe something like higher dose cyproheptadine + caffeine. Also something to sterilize the upper intestine. I've been having pretty good results with oregano oil with a meal. It seems to mix with food in the stomach and protect it against being digested by bacteria.

I have yet to experiment with thyroid, but I think it is probably wise in most cases to not supplement thyroid until your serotonin/dopamine ratio is more ideal to ensure that it does not result in stress hormone production instead of the youth hormone pathways. This is just my speculation though.

 

[dookie]

What would you consider symptoms of this estrogen elevation?

Water-retention, Swelling and bloating, either whole body, or areas around the body, is probably the main thing. Other symptoms are gyno, swelling and tenderness in the breasts, irregular menstrual periods (for women), depression, agitation, mood swings, anxiety, memory loss, irritability, fatigue.

Possible increase in estradiol (e2) blood level, but that test is not perfect.

I do great mentally & energy wise with many supps that increase my metabolism (B6, Preg, Progesterone, thyroid, caffeine etc). However every one of these eventually end up causing high estrogen. I take anti-estrogens to offset this (high dose Aspirin, Vitamin E, Zinc, microsilica etc).

You experience estrogenic effects from progesterone and caffeine, yet you don't experience estrogenic effects from aspirin? That's interesting. Aspirin is another supplement which many people experience clear estrogen symptoms from, almost as powerful as thyroid in that regard.

 

[dookie]

I do spent the time reading the two articles from the ex peatarian.com that unexamined_whimsy suggested, and they made a point. I also read the comments and there was very few statements that are straight, like:
"fatigue and water retention are typical hypoT symptoms. If you were hyperT, you should feel like you drank too much coffee (shaky, easily excited etc.)"

A lot of the comments were of complains and uncertainty due to therapy that it seems gives unexpected results, a lot of people are taking something-hormones and they're experiencing gynecomastia, water retention, weight gain etc. It seems they've expected the outcome to be different, it looked to me as a mess, i couldnt figure out whos hypo, hyper or is it hypo but it shows clinical hyper symptoms and the results of the treatments were they right.




Shouldn't the outcome be the same according elevated estrogens, if the thyroid suppl is taken (hypoT takes thyroid to balance low thyroid output) or the body is overstimulating its thyroid (hyperT due to unproper body function) ?

I mean if you are hypoT you take suppl and one ends up with elevated estrogens - not good, if you are hyperT the body is overstimulating itself and one ends up with elevated estrogens, again - not good..? confusing))

I'm not sure what is going on when some people take thyroid. Maybe they don't become truly hyperthyroid, maybe the estrogen is the body's protective way of lowering metabolism, when you are trying to "artificially" pump it up with a supplement.

Maybe there's a reason why the body keeps thyroid low in many cases, so a TSH of even 5 or 6 wouldn't necessarily translate into "take thyroid". High endotoxin, serotonin, cortisol, nitric oxide, are some thing which could be the causes of "hypothyroid" symptoms. Maybe treating those would make the hypothyroid go away, allowing the body to achieve balance

 

[tara]

Maybe there's a reason why the body keeps thyroid low in many cases, so a TSH of even 5 or 6 wouldn't necessarily translate into "take thyroid". High endotoxin, serotonin, cortisol, nitric oxide, are some thing which could be the causes of "hypothyroid" symptoms. Maybe treating those would make the hypothyroid go away, allowing the body to achieve balance

I wonder about this too. I'd add to your list of possible reasons the body might deliberately keep thyroid function low: chronic nutrient deficiency, incl. calories; chronic over-work/over-exercise; chronic life-stress.

 

[supernature]

This is why Peat recommends daily raw carrot salad as one of the first things to try for balancing hormones.

That should only help and remind the importance of elimination as a natural way of removing the unnecessary substances from the body.

However despite the hydroxylation of the estrogens (the part where they are activated), their detox and inactivation is part of the methylation and that takes place in the liver. If there are difficulties on that stage that should affect negatively the estrogen removal and continue to increase estrogens disbalance i think.

 

[tara]

If there are difficulties on that stage that should affect negatively the estrogen removal and continue to increase estrogens disbalance i think.

Yeah, you need the liver managing its part of the detox process.

 

[James_001]

I definitely think DHT will help, but I think the major cause of low metabolism in a lot of people (male or female) is high serotonin, since most people report low metabolism after some type of chronic major stress. Usually from low calories/nutrients for an extended amount of time. Often from doing something stupid like low calorie, low carb or skipping meals and staying up way too late chronically, while getting no morning and daytime sun. All of these together are a good recipe for increasing brain serotonin and becoming vulnerable to a small intestine infection, which is exactly what you would expect for an organism undergoing a chronic stress.

Since the dopamine/serotonin ratio in the brain is one of the major things that controls steroid production I think it is the main problem that needs to be addressed. Many hours of daily sun light and going to bed early, while loading up on magnesium and starchy carbs are what I attribute to getting my steroid production back on-line. Also, a little strength training. Enough to stimulate DHT production, but not enough to chronically raise cortisol.

But it makes sense that anything that helps lower serotonin would be helpful, including DHT or maybe something like higher dose cyproheptadine + caffeine. Also something to sterilize the upper intestine. I've been having pretty good results with oregano oil with a meal. It seems to mix with food in the stomach and protect it against being digested by bacteria.

I have yet to experiment with thyroid, but I think it is probably wise in most cases to not supplement thyroid until your serotonin/dopamine ratio is more ideal to ensure that it does not result in stress hormone production instead of the youth hormone pathways. This is just my speculation though.

Yes that is what happened to me basically, a lot of stress killed my sex drive.

Why starch as opposed to sugar?

 

[sweetpeat]

I experienced a reduction of water retention when I stopped taking thyroid over the summer. In my case, I think my t3 levels were too high in relation to t4. I had labs done during the time I stopped thyroid and was clearly hypothyroid with TSH of 17 and t4/t3 levels at bottom of range or lower. I've since resumed taking thyroid with a higher ratio of t4 (currently 9:1) and the water hasn't come back so far.

This article (http://www.tiredthyroid.com/rt3-2.html) connects excess t3 with sex hormone binding globulin to explain the rise in estrogen. I'm not smart enough to know if the research or conclusions are sound. Maybe someone could check it out...

 

[ecstatichamster]

That's a good article sweetpeat.

 

[dookie]

I experienced a reduction of water retention when I stopped taking thyroid over the summer. In my case, I think my t3 levels were too high in relation to t4. I had labs done during the time I stopped thyroid and was clearly hypothyroid with TSH of 17 and t4/t3 levels at bottom of range or lower. I've since resumed taking thyroid with a higher ratio of t4 (currently 9:1) and the water hasn't come back so far.

This article (http://www.tiredthyroid.com/rt3-2.html) connects excess t3 with sex hormone binding globulin to explain the rise in estrogen. I'm not smart enough to know if the research or conclusions are sound. Maybe someone could check it out...

That is interesting. All the people I heard from who got estrogenic side effects from thyroid got it from both T3 and T4, and I know many of them tried various ratios of T4/T3, also trying T3 or T4 alone.

The lady who writes that website - tiredthyroid.com - takes supplemental bio-identical estrogen. She was "left hypothyroid after radioactive iodine treatment for Graves’ hyperthyroidism". Perhaps for a case like that, thyroid supplementation is necessary. But if you still have your thyroid gland, I think "hypothyroidism" should be solved at the core causes, not merely adding exogenous thyroid hormones

 

[Brian]

Starch seems

Yes that is what happened to me basically, a lot of stress killed my sex drive.

Why starch as opposed to sugar?

Sucrose/fructose seems to speed the metabolism up too fast too soon in some situations from what I can tell. Just like thyroid or caffeine maybe it causes a stress reaction if serotonin is too high and important nutrients like magnesium are too low. Or if the liver is currently overburdened fructose doesn't seem to be used as energy.

I consider fructose to be another one of those things, like calcium that are are anti-metabolic when you are in a stressed state, but very pro-metabolic when metabolism is already working well and minerals are balanced.

But really the best thing I have noticed overall for lowering serotonin/cortisol and increasing digestion is spending as much time as possible outdoors. Which I know is not possible for many people's schedules, but it is a very powerful tool that doesn't have any negative side effects and is completely free.

 

[Giraffe]

vaginal suppositories

A caller asked Peat about it: Diabetes type 1 - KMUD, 2014-02-21.

 

[sweetpeat]

That is interesting.

Yeah, I thought it was interesting too. And totally unexpected. I'd almost forgotten what it was like to squat down without feeling like my legs would split open from water pressure. But I knew it had to be the thyroid because that was the only thing I'd changed. Looking for an explanation led me to the tiredthyroid site where I learned of the t3 connection. It's a mystery to me why the water hasn't returned, if it's as prevalent as you say. Or why I don't have other estrogen symptoms. Estrogen biomarkers are also low-normal.

All the people I heard from who got estrogenic side effects from thyroid got it from both T3 and T4, and I know many of them tried various ratios of T4/T3, also trying T3 or T4 alone.

I wonder if it's a matter of driving their t3 levels too high. Maybe it's not the pills themselves so much as what's happening in their bodies. If you have good conversion, couldn't too much t4 give you too much t3?

The lady who writes that website - tiredthyroid.com - takes supplemental bio-identical estrogen.

Not sure of the relevancy of this. Does it discredit her writings on thyroid in some way? I thought she was saying basically the same thing as the post topic – that too much thyroid can cause elevated estrogen. I don't see her saying that elevated estrogen is a good thing.

She was "left hypothyroid after radioactive iodine treatment for Graves’ hyperthyroidism". Perhaps for a case like that, thyroid supplementation is necessary. But if you still have your thyroid gland, I think "hypothyroidism" should be solved at the core causes, not merely adding exogenous thyroid hormones

I agree – there can be many causes for low thyroid function/low metabolism and I always encourage people to take a holistic approach before resorting to supplemental thyroid. I don't know why anyone would want to take thyroid if you can find and fix the underlying cause. It's a real pain in the neck (har har, sorry for the bad pun).

 

[Orion]

Starch seems


Sucrose/fructose seems to speed the metabolism up too fast too soon in some situations from what I can tell. Just like thyroid or caffeine maybe it causes a stress reaction if serotonin is too high and important nutrients like magnesium are too low. Or if the liver is currently overburdened fructose doesn't seem to be used as energy.

I consider fructose to be another one of those things, like calcium that are are anti-metabolic when you are in a stressed state, but very pro-metabolic when metabolism is already working well and minerals are balanced.

But really the best thing I have noticed overall for lowering serotonin/cortisol and increasing digestion is spending as much time as possible outdoors. Which I know is not possible for many people's schedules, but it is a very powerful tool that doesn't have any negative side effects and is completely free.

For busy schedules and cold winters, do you think that heat lamp bulbs, etc are adequate replacements?

Also you mentioned Oregano Oil above, any thoughts on using activated charcoal for lowering serotonin?