Excess Alpha Tocopherol Might Damage Bones

[j.]

Scientists at the Keio University in Tokyo , Japan, tested the effects of vitamin E supplements on mice, and found that high doses of the nutrient stimulated the production of bone-eroding cells, the BBC News reported this week.

Read the rest.

 

[j.]

If true, it would suggest that vitamins E and K2 should be balanced, considering that K2 protects bones.

What I would aim for is high levels of both vitamins E and K2.

 

[j.]

Important Note: They used only alpha tocopherol, not mixed tocopherols.

 

[burtlancast]

Synthetic or natural ?
Oil dissolved or dry ?

For reminders, Vit E allows cultured cells to divide up to 120 times ( 50 for controls).

This is why it has been called the eternity vitamin.

 

[j.]

How much do you use Burt?

 

[j.]

Synthetic or natural ?

I think mixed tocopherols or alpha only is a more important issue than synthetic or natural. If you have only alpha tocopherol, without the others, it would probably be bad even if it's natural. The best form is natural mixed tocopherols, as far as we know.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Surely such a treatment would be like taking warfarin... Who knows if they had enough vitamin K?

 

[burtlancast]

Synthetic or natural ?

I think mixed tocopherols or alpha only is a more important issue than synthetic or natural. If you have only alpha tocopherol, without the others, it would probably be bad even if it's natural. The best form is natural mixed tocopherols, as far as we know.

The alpha part is the one with the all important anti-coagulant property; the other ones have just antioxydant properties.

So i agree, the mix is the best .
I take 800 UI/ day.
At 1600, my blood pressure starts to climb.

The study you cited doesn't mention if it's synthetic or not; high doses of synthetic Vit E are known to be toxic, whether natural ones are not.

Way before Ray showed the Hayflick theory of limited cellular divisions (50 divisions) to be inexact, people knew Vit E would bring this limit to 120 cell divisions.

 

[j.]

I take 800 UI/ day.
At 1600, my blood pressure starts to climb.

When we ingest vitamin E, most of it goes to the adipose tissue and the adrenal glands. I wonder if the temporary increase in blood pressure is partly because it "wakes up the adrenals", and at first it secretes more hormones that increase blood pressure.

 

[burtlancast]

When we ingest vitamin E, most of it goes to the adipose tissue and the adrenal glands. I wonder if the temporary increase in blood pressure is partly because it "wakes up the adrenals", and at first it secretes more hormones that increase blood pressure.

Vit E improves mucle performance.
The increase in blood pressure is simply due to the increased pumping strenght of the heart muscle.
This is one of the rationale of treating heart disease with Vit E.
After 2 months, Vit E induces a lowering of the tonus of peripheral vessels, which lowers back the blood pressure.

 

[Wilfrid]

The article does not say much about the protocol used.
Here is the full study:

http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnm.2659

However, keep in mind that : "In the version of this article initially published, it was incorrectly stated that the mice were fed a diet supplemented with α-tocopherol at 600 mg per kg of body weight. Instead, the food itself contained 600 mg of α-tocopherol per kg. The error has been corrected in the HTML and PDF ver- sions of the article."

Even with the study fully available, it's hard to say if the vitamin E used in the supplemented diet was natural or not, but chances are that the one used was synthethic.
The provider of the raw material was CLEA Japan, one can have an opinion just by looking on their "specific" diets which they provide for animal experiment.....

http://www.clea-japan.com/en/index.html

 

[burtlancast]

the food itself contained 600 mg of α-tocopherol per kg.

A 70 kg adult would take 600 UI (roughly 600 mg) per kilo, = 42 g / day !

Ridiculous amounts, which has no basis in reality.

 

[Wilfrid]

the food itself contained 600 mg of α-tocopherol per kg.

A 70 kg adult would take 600 UI (roughly 600 mg) per kilo, = 42 g / day !

Ridiculous amounts, which has no basis in reality.

Agree, burt.
The bold statement is mine and from the (not accessible freely) original study...(it's at the bottom).
That is why I posted the whole study to outlined this ridiculous fact.....because the dosage they were using in the study was not specified in the original link that J. provided to us.
Nice to see that we finally find a way to be agree on something.

As for extrapolate, in general, the "results" of any given drugs/supplements from rodents to humans, I already have my own conclusion about it when I came across the work of Robert Burns.
If you have interest about it:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3603&start=20

However, j. is making very interesting and informative post on vitamin E.
And his experiments ( dosage, topical, which forms, the link with the adrenals ect...) with it are very valuable for all of us on this forum.

 

[j.]

600 IU is only about 400 mg. 42 grams would be about 63,000 IU.

 

[burtlancast]

600 IU is only about 400 mg. 42 grams would be about 63,000 IU.

You're right.
One wonders why researchers would go through the hassle of feeding astronomical quantities of vitamins just for the sake of finding a deleterious effect.

Waste of public funds.

 

[j.]

600 IU is only about 400 mg. 42 grams would be about 63,000 IU.

You're right.
One wonders why researchers would go through the hassle of feeding astronomical quantities of vitamins just for the sake of finding a deleterious effect.

Waste of public funds.

I disagree here. If they found problems with that amount, I think the next natural question is, would the effects occur at a lower dose? Are there variables that effect what is the toxic dose, etc.

I think pregnenolone didn't cause trouble in any dose, even up to the point of filling the rats' stomachs with it. That's useful information because it shows how safe it is.

 

[jyb]

Surely such a treatment would be like taking warfarin... Who knows if they had enough vitamin K?

I took some vit E (tip of a teaspoon) for a couple days and got the same side effect as regular aspirin - light ear ringing. So yes vit K seems needed...

Although I took vit E in the morning (without K2), I also got delayed sleep onset. Sleep quality seems okay, but bad delay. I had the same thing with K2 last year.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It seems like what you hear around is that only K1 has the anti-coagulant effects. What is the Peatish opinion?

 

[Hugh Johnson]

It seems like what you hear around is that only K1 has the anti-coagulant effects. What is the Peatish opinion?

Personal experience is that K2 stopped the chronic nosebleeds I got from taking large doses of aspirin and Vitamin E together in an hour or so. I recall Peat saying he takes a mix of K1 and K2.

the food itself contained 600 mg of α-tocopherol per kg.

A 70 kg adult would take 600 UI (roughly 600 mg) per kilo, = 42 g / day !

Ridiculous amounts, which has no basis in reality.

Frankly I'm impressed it did not kill the rats. Most things in our diets become dangerous after a certain point. I think it's good research.