Evidence For Estrogen Levels In Mpb

[ilhanxx]

The book is more than just liver+milk+gelatin+antipufa, those are just suggestions at the end of the book, it's a brillant book that most people don't understand at first. Personally I've reread it several times and I'm often amazed at how great a job Danny did. It explains the underlying physiology very well. Along with the articles on his website, they make for the best hair research on the internet, bar none.

Rob's massage approach is very good and effective, if you do the things to improve your environment and thyroid health. For countless guys, massages have brought no results.

Hair loss is a systemic problem, so if you deal with the causes, then the massages can over time (1 year), improve and reverse the scalp physiological conditions. J.D. Moyer is a great example. Jared was also another one and there's plenty of pictures from other cases on Rob's site and in his original books which show the great results which are possible.

Thanks Mrchibbs for your great contributions and sharings on the forum.

 

[tim333]

Precisely why I recommend re-reading HLAF, because the answer to your first question is covered there. With respect to your second question, what I mean is that women in their 20s or 30s with PCOS ofen experience male pattern baldness. PCOS has the same endocrinological profile as AGA does in men. See Sanke et al. (2016). PCOS is basically ovarian failure and therefore these women tend develop the exact same MPB shape as men. It's documented all over the literature. It's not at all about DHT, serum DHT is not even elevated in men with MPB and if it is elevated on the scalp, it's also elevated in the prostate, and in other organs tissues with inflammation (like the lungs, liver etc.)

I really recommend digging through the hair loss threads on this forum, because to be honest I'm kinda going crazy repeating things we've talked over ad nauseam, with references, especially so with DHT.

Women with PCOS have increased DHT... and yet they still don't get pattern baldness like men do but you're basically proving my point. Susceptibility to MPB has more to do with how scalp androgen receptors react to DHT and to levels of DHT production in the scalp (5α-R1) more than serum DHT levels. By the way, Rob doesn't discount DHT playing an important role.

i was sarcastic about both english and the food advice. rob english is and always was a norwood 1 chad. thats why people take him seriously.

LOL, I didn't catch it sorry.

Yeah there is no way that he had any significant hair loss, the diet in his book is actually a great way to promote it in addition to it being completely unpalatable.

 

[mrchibbs]

Women with PCOS have increased DHT... and yet they still don't get pattern baldness like men do but you're basically proving my point. Susceptibility to MPB has more to do with how scalp androgen receptors react to DHT and to levels of DHT production in the scalp (5α-R1) more than serum DHT levels. By the way, Rob doesn't discount DHT playing an important role.

I completely disagree. You're twisting my words. You should really read the literature, women with PCOS or post-menopausal can indeed experience MPB, just like men. And it has absolutely nothing to do with "susceptibility to scalp androgens". If women experience increased tissue DHT, it's because they have increased adrenal DHEA, and DHEA is preferrentially into DHT in the skin and other target tissues. The increased DHEA compensates for ovarian/gonadal insufficiency in both sexes.

Things like elevated prolactin, cortisol, aldosterone are also elevated topically in the scalp and are a better explanation for hair loss than DHT, which isn't the main cause of hair loss. If it was finasteride would be the cure, and it clearly isn't. At most it is implicated, but as a minor player. And yes, Rob, in his original 2016, made a case for DHT, and even in his scholarly articles DHT is part of his scalp massage theory. He's firmly mainstream in that regard, and to be a hair loss researcher in academia you basically adhere to the conventional DHT theory, in one way or another.

 

[mrchibbs]

Thanks Mrchibbs for your great contributions and sharings on the forum.

You're very kind thank you!

 

[Risingfire]

@DhtAssassin just chop off your balls and your hair will regrow back

 

[Inaut]

@DhtAssassin just chop off your balls and your hair will regrow back

I think you found the cure @Risingfire !

 

[DhtAssassin]

@DhtAssassin just chop off your balls and your hair will regrow back

That would only prevent future loss.

 

[JDreamer]

That would only prevent future loss.

Chop them off anyways.

 

[mrchibbs]

A few quotes from Hair like a fox (2013), which I think are still illuminating:

When analyzing the hormones of a castrate (eunuch), we find that, in addition to the absence of testosterone, castrates are also deficient in estrogen and prolactin. (p. 41)

Finally, while heavily relied upon to explain the genesis of balding in men, this theory is completely jettisoned in other cases of “male-pattern baldness”. For instance “male-pattern” hair loss is observed in females (female androgenic alopecia), in new-borns during the first year of life, women taking oral contraceptives, postpartum mothers, post-menopausal women, and senescent alopecia (hair loss in those over 50 years of age). These situations are believed to be age-related or androgen-independent or both. A “genetic sensitivity to androgens in the scalp” isn’t usually invoked. Why is the aging male subjected to the androgen hypothesis, while children, women and the elderly are subject to a completely different theory? These errors in reasoning obviously represent a broader problem in our medical culture — a culture that discounts the entirety of an individual in favor of fragmentation and reductionism. (p.21)

A hormonal anomaly unifying Hamilton's castrates and Dr. Imperato McGinley's pseudohermaphrodites is the “higher functioning” of the pituitary gonadotropin, luteinizing hormone (LH), which stimulates the ovaries to secrete progesterone in women, the testes to secrete testosterone in men, and the adrenal glands to secrete androgens in both men and women. While progesterone levels were not measured in either case, the castrates and pseudohermaphrodites exhibited feminized characteristics (e.g., reduced beard growth, higher pitched voices, and reduced pubic hair growth), all but confirming the notion that the groups had either higher than normal levels of progesterone, an anti-androgen, or unusually low levels of estrogen in relation to the adrenal androgens and progesterone, as the estrogens can be masculinizing. (The castrates were probably deficient in the enzymes that convert the adrenal androgens and progesterone to testosterone and estrogen.) (p.43)

This last part corroborates what @Broco6679 wrote about a few months ago, regarding finasteride, which may raise serum progesterone by preventing its conversion into downstream metabolites, including 17-alpha-progesterone, testosterone, and estradiol/estrone.

In essence, castrates/pseudohermaphrodites may have relatively low levels of estrogen and/or high progesterone to go along with their relative deficiency of the androgens. And in particular, their physiological state may be characterized by a deficiency of the enzymes 21-hydroxylase, 17α-hydroxylase along with aromatase and 5α-reductase. This is an interesting angle to explore.

Danny has developed an ever more refined understanding of hair loss since then, but the basic facts still hold, and while I removed the citations to improve legibility, in HLAF there is abundance of references backing up every claim.

 

[ddjd]

View: https://twitter.com/cynomaxxx/status/1686199170791542784?t=aBtWU391Qcos-6Bbq--lcQ&s=19

 

[Pablo Cruise]

So, illuminating post but no studies with LH and AGA apparently. You point out some serious considerations and no one else has picked up on this? Studies still point to DHT binding sites as the culprit of balding, right? I am afraid AGA is a complex problem, of course, and we are still trying to get our thesis correct.