Evidence For Estrogen Levels In Mpb

[mrchibbs]

On finasteride gyno was coming for me at the same time I was regrowing crazy amounts of hair. I was estrogen dominant for the first time and regrew hair.
I’m not going to say it’s like that for everyone, but when it comes to myself I‘ll stick to observation instead of just theory.

Great, you're entitled to your own opinion, I just think it's ludicrous to extend that to a universal statement about how great estrogen is for hair. There's been a gazillion threads on hair loss forums since the late 90s about this idea: it has failed spectacularly.

 

[mrchibbs]

that’s from animal studies, so, no.

Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source

In humans:

whatever happens in rodents always sounds interesting and all that but it never ever should be used to conclude anything in humans. And I see a lot of people making such bold and ultimately erroneous assumptions especially with regards to estradiol and hair.

It seems to me that your assumptions are just as bold and erroneous. You seem intent on making that leap of faith that estradiol is always good. Many people have had similar arguments. The excerpt you just cited is not the evidence you think it is. You cannot simply dismiss animal evidence when it's not convenient to you because then you have to throw away our modern understanding of physiology which is largely built on the evidence of animal models. Clearly it's not enough to come to a definitive conclusion, but it should give you pause, the fact that it doesn't highlights your ideological beliefs about estradiol, and it's not your fault, it's part of our societal dogmas.

A simple look at transgender people stories, for instance, on reddit makes it very clear: several young men with great hair to start with lose it when they go on E2-exclusive therapy. Some don't get negative results, at least at first, especially if they're very young and healthy. E2 plays a role in growth processes, so it makes sense that hair follicles have active estrogen receptors, however it should not be elevated all the time, especially after the initial anagen stage.

We see many stories of hair regrowth involving E2 along with rectal P4, and an anti-androgen like CPA or spiro. The funny thing is CPA is often part of these regrowth stories and it suppresses both E1 and E2 synthesis. So, no I don't believe E2 is always good for hair, in fact, chronically elevated E2 without sufficient P4 leads to excess collagen and fibrosis, which contributes to the pathology of male pattern baldness. E2, when chronically elevated and unopposed, leads to uncontrolled growth, and that is evidenced by its implication in tumor processes.

 

[tim333]

I think all sex hormone ranges are pathetically low since they’re based on modern “normal” males. If I look around at who’s the 95% male population I’d rather be in the top 2.5%.

low E2 is low T is hypogonadism. High everything is much better. Countless reports from guys on TRT who don’t have a problem being in the upper quartile or somewhat above range.

Hair loss a side effect of anti estrogenic drugs is extremely frequent. People will speculate that it’s because of some other mechanism that no one can prove - no, it’s from the induced hypogonadism and blockade of E2 (in the cell)

Hair loss is also a side effect of taking testosterone without taking anti-estrogens though right?

This fact pretty much destroys Danny Roddy's pontifications does it not:

No temporal recession of the hairline or androgenic alopecia (pattern hair loss or baldness) has been observed in any of the cases of 5α-reductase type II deficiency that have been reported, whereas this is normally seen to some degree in almost all Caucasian males in their teenage years.

Dihydrotestosterone - Wikipedia

Women can thin but male pattern balding is strictly a male thing so it's likely strictly to do with DHT. It doesn't matter how much DHT is in the blood so much as it matters how much DHT is being produced in the scalp. High scalp DHT + tight galea/calcification/fibrosis etc seems to be the formula. Not too sure how retinoic acid fits in but it obviously does. So the answer to hair loss is to optimize health in general, thyroid, liver function etc to help balance hormones and to do scalp massages.

Liver and high fat dairy is an absolute no no. The K2:vA ratio is important. Egg yolks, lard and meat have good K2:vA ratios.

Key hairloss nutrients and where I get them:

Biotin: Egg yolks without the white, meat, almond milk
Riboflavin: Meat, small amounts of low fat dairy, mushroom
K2: Egg yolks, chicken, salami, meat
vD: Sun
Folate: legumes, cabbage

These nutrients are all depleted by elevated levels of retinoic acid.

 

[mrchibbs]

On finasteride gyno was coming for me at the same time I was regrowing crazy amounts of hair. I was estrogen dominant for the first time and regrew hair.
I’m not going to say it’s like that for everyone, but when it comes to myself I‘ll stick to observation instead of just theory.

Hair loss is also a side effect of taking testosterone without taking anti-estrogens though right?

This fact pretty much destroys Danny Roddy's pontifications does it not:

No temporal recession of the hairline or androgenic alopecia (pattern hair loss or baldness) has been observed in any of the cases of 5α-reductase type II deficiency that have been reported, whereas this is normally seen to some degree in almost all Caucasian males in their teenage years.

Women can thin but male pattern balding is strictly a male thing so it's likely strictly to do with DHT.

I recommend reading Hair like a fox (2013), where Danny covers this specific case of 5-a reductase deficiency, as well as the case of castrates. It's not about DHT.

Regarding male pattern baldness, your statement is false. The so called male pattern baldness has been seen in women with PCOS, as well as well as post-menopausal women. The researchers use the term ''male pattern baldness" because it follows the exact shape the popular culture believes to be exclusively male. To add to the evidence, newborns can also have the exact balding men experience.

It's probably a universal hair loss pattern.

 

[tim333]

I recommend reading Hair like a fox (2013), where Danny covers this specific case of 5-a reductase deficiency, as well as the case of castrates. It's not about DHT.

Regarding male pattern baldness, your statement is false. The so called male pattern baldness has been seen in women with PCOS, as well as well as post-menopausal women. The researchers use the term ''male pattern baldness" because it follows the exact shape the popular culture believes to be exclusively male. To add to the evidence, newborns can also have the exact balding men experience.

It's probably a universal hair loss pattern.

No, explain why with the castrates it's not about DHT if that's wrong.

Women can get androgenic alopecia but it usually happens after menopause afaik and it has a different pattern. How many women in their 20s and 30s are balding in a male pattern baldness pattern? It's mostly about DHT.

 

[DhtAssassin]

I recommend reading Hair like a fox (2013), where Danny covers this specific case of 5-a reductase deficiency, as well as the case of castrates. It's not about DHT.

Regarding male pattern baldness, your statement is false. The so called male pattern baldness has been seen in women with PCOS, as well as well as post-menopausal women. The researchers use the term ''male pattern baldness" because it follows the exact shape the popular culture believes to be exclusively male. To add to the evidence, newborns can also have the exact balding men experience.

It's probably a universal hair loss pattern.

How is that book valid? Danny hasn't cured a single person from MPB. Seems more like a money grab from people who lost their hope fighting hair loss.

 

[Ableton]

How is that book valid? Danny hasn't cured a single person from MPB. Seems more like a money grab from people who lost their hope fighting hair loss.

I recommend you look into rob english, a man who shows what appears to be a slightly thinned out vertex if he is directly under light! He cured his baldness just like Copy Roddy by eating liver and ice cream before bed

 

[tim333]

I recommend you look into rob english, a man who shows what appears to be a slightly thinned out vertex if he is directly under light! He cured his baldness just like Copy Roddy by eating liver and ice cream before bed

I bought his book years ago. At the time the before photos he posted of his "hair loss" didn't clearly show it. The book has some good info but the dietary advice is appalling. I'm not discounting the rest of the info though.

Liver and ice cream before bed? wtf, that sounds like a recipe for hairloss.

 

[Ableton]

I bought his book years ago. At the time the before photos he posted of his "hair loss" didn't clearly show it. The book has some good info but the dietary advice is appalling. I'm not discounting the rest of the info though.

Liver and ice cream before bed? wtf, that sounds like a recipe for hairloss.

i was sarcastic about both english and the food advice. rob english is and always was a norwood 1 chad. thats why people take him seriously.

 

[Ableton]

dude had to fire a 500 volt lamp on his vertex by the looks of his hands to reveal any "thinning". what a joke. not a single picture of his hairline either, because if he revealed how low it is and always was not even the copers here would keep taking him seriously

 

[mrchibbs]

@tim333

I truly recommend re-reading it. I disagree with you on ice cream and liver being a recipe for hair loss, but that is besides the point, there is really good information and references and it holds up very well.

 

[mrchibbs]

How is that book valid? Danny hasn't cured a single person from MPB. Seems more like a money grab from people who lost their hope fighting hair loss.

Please. Since you've been on this forum you have been the posterboy for the hopeless balding guy, and you're not contributing intelligently to these discussions. Hair like a fox has been free for 5 years and was 1$ before that. Sure is a big money grab and clearly you're slandering Danny for no reason and I won't have it.

 

[mrchibbs]

i was sarcastic about both english and the food advice. rob english is and always was a norwood 1 chad. thats why people take him seriously.

What good is this virgin vs. chad bs. Who seriously talks like this. Rob was balding at the vertex, never at the hair line and if you had the original book you would see these pictures and know this information. People take him seriously because he is kind, dedicated and followed through with a dozen guys from 2014-2015 and several of them regrew hair. Some of those pictures are available on his website and a few of those dudes were consulting with both Danny and Rob at the same time, and regrew their hair, including their hairlines.

It's not rocket science after all, if you focus on the proper pro-thyroid lifestyle interventions and you massage your scalp like Rob is showing you will most likely regrow your hair. But it takes focus and a willingness to stop complaining and doing. Simply massaging for a few weeks or even months half-assed clearly does not do anything and can make matters worse. In the book and on Rob's website you could read the case studies and in all those guys it took 1 year+ of dedication and real lifestyle changes.

If you don't want to have a constructive discussion what is even the point of this forum.

 

[mrchibbs]

No, explain why with the castrates it's not about DHT if that's wrong.

Women can get androgenic alopecia but it usually happens after menopause afaik and it has a different pattern. How many women in their 20s and 30s are balding in a male pattern baldness pattern? It's mostly about DHT.

Precisely why I recommend re-reading HLAF, because the answer to your first question is covered there. With respect to your second question, what I mean is that women in their 20s or 30s with PCOS ofen experience male pattern baldness. PCOS has the same endocrinological profile as AGA does in men. See Sanke et al. (2016). PCOS is basically ovarian failure and therefore these women tend develop the exact same MPB shape as men. It's documented all over the literature. It's not at all about DHT, serum DHT is not even elevated in men with MPB and if it is elevated on the scalp, it's also elevated in the prostate, and in other organs tissues with inflammation (like the lungs, liver etc.)

I really recommend digging through the hair loss threads on this forum, because to be honest I'm kinda going crazy repeating things we've talked over ad nauseam, with references, especially so with DHT.

 

[DhtAssassin]

Please. Since you've been on this forum you have been the posterboy for the hopeless balding guy, and you're not contributing intelligently to these discussions. Hair like a fox has been free for 5 years and was 1$ before that. Sure is a big money grab and clearly you're slandering Danny for no reason and I won't have it.

1$???? He has shitty membership program which is 150$ for 6 months... Yeah, sure... no way he is not grabbing money from hopeless balding guys... Why does he keep the pictures private then? It's ridiculous to say "he has pictures, but those are private"..


Yes, he does have some good articles published which seem to be backed on science, but people have been using massages for years.. Just check hairlosstalk.. You will probably come up with some other excuse like always.. If massage and diet changes were cure we would have known by now.

 

[mrchibbs]

1$???? He has shitty membership program which is 150$ for 6 months... Yeah, sure... no way he is not grabbing money from hopeless balding guys... Why does he keep the pictures private then? It's ridiculous to say "he has pictures, but those are private"..


Yes, he does have some good articles published which seem to be backed on science, but people have been using massages for years.. Just check hairlosstalk.. You will probably come up with some other excuse like always.. If massage and diet changes were cure we would have known by now.

Are you confused between Danny and Rob?

Danny doesn’t have a 150$ membership, and yes Hair Like A Fox is free, and all his info he presents in his streams for free.

Rob used to have an affordable book and I know this is not the case anymore. But as far as I know he’s now a full time hair loss researcher, so I can't fault the guy for trying to make a living. He doesn't have a Patreon like Danny.

He’s shared pictures since 2015 of guys experiencing regrowth on his massage + lifestyle changes. And several are still shown on his website. We’ve had exchanges about this several times in the past.

The mere fact that you speak of a “cure” highlights how you dont care about what we talk about here. The simple truth is massages have proven effective if done long term as part of significant lifestyle interventions which Danny also talks about. They are not however a “cure” for a systemic problem like baldness has proven to be.

If you dont have a specific constructive point of criticism to make please refrain from commenting. It’s simply polluting the thread.

 

[ilhanxx]

I read Danny's ebook, In the first pages he said he used fin in the past and have some nasty side effects. But, Danny doesnt look like to have aga. I didn't see before photos him. The book is look like simple liver+milk+gelatin+antipufa. If we compare, rob has deeper library than roddy. Massage is miracle. Jd moyer is very good example in terms of cure discipline and steadiness. I really benefit from massage (rob's work) . I will share new terminal hair microscope pictures.

 

[mrchibbs]

I read Danny's ebook, In the first pages he said he used fin in the past and have some nasty side effects. But, Danny doesnt look like to have aga. I didn't see before photos him. The book is look like simple liver+milk+gelatin+antipufa. If we compare, rob has deeper library than roddy. Massage is miracle. Jd moyer is very good example in terms of cure discipline and steadiness. I really benefit from massage (rob's work) . I will share new terminal hair microscope pictures.

The book is more than just liver+milk+gelatin+antipufa, those are just suggestions at the end of the book, it's a brillant book that most people don't understand at first. Personally I've reread it several times and I'm often amazed at how great a job Danny did. It explains the underlying physiology very well. Along with the articles on his website, they make for the best hair research on the internet, bar none.

Rob's massage approach is very good and effective, if you do the things to improve your environment and thyroid health. For countless guys, massages have brought no results.

Hair loss is a systemic problem, so if you deal with the causes, then the massages can over time (1 year), improve and reverse the scalp physiological conditions. J.D. Moyer is a great example. Jared was also another one and there's plenty of pictures from other cases on Rob's site and in his original books which show the great results which are possible.

 

[rr1]

I really dislike when people ***t on Danny Roddy, calling him Copy Roddy and saying that he rips off Ray Peat. Sure, he does make a lot of money through what he does, but there is nothing stopping anyone else from doing this, and I doubt just anyone would be able to, it takes someone who's very passionate about this stuff

Furthermore, there are a great deal of people who would never have even heard of Ray Peat had Danny Roddy not started his youtube channel. A lot of people discovered Ray Peat through Danny Roddy and then went on to reading all of Rays articles and singing up for the newsletter, myself included. Also, Danny does do a lot of independent research and does have a lot of his own ideas. And he also gives Ray Peat all of the donations from his youtube podcasts, when Ray Peat would be more than happy to do them for free anyway. I don't see him as trying to rip off people by stealing ideas, I see him as trying to bring Ray Peat and Rays principles/ideas to the attention of a much wider audience.

 

[mrchibbs]

I really dislike when people ***t on Danny Roddy, calling him Copy Roddy and saying that he rips off Ray Peat. Sure, he does make a lot of money through what he does, but there is nothing stopping anyone else from doing this, and I doubt just anyone would be able to, it takes someone who's very passionate about this stuff

Furthermore, there are a great deal of people who would never have even heard of Ray Peat had Danny Roddy not started his youtube channel. A lot of people discovered Ray Peat through Danny Roddy and then went on to reading all of Rays articles and singing up for the newsletter, myself included. Also, Danny does do a lot of independent research and does have a lot of his own ideas. And he also gives Ray Peat all of the donations from his youtube podcasts, when Ray Peat would be more than happy to do them for free anyway. I don't see him as trying to rip off people by stealing ideas, I see him as trying to bring Ray Peat and Rays principles/ideas to the attention of a much wider audience.

I echo your sentiments exactly, I think this type of disrespect is appalling and completely gratuitous.