Everything Wormwood/Artemisinin/Artemisia

[Mossy]

To answer some questions on iron....
Scientists develop new cancer-killing compound from salad plant

According to Dr Henry Lai, it is not necessary to supplement additional iron.

Thanks, bzmau. If I remember correctly, your comments on another thread talk about how you're not certain if the more expensive artemisinin, versus A. annua, is more effective. Maybe I got that wrong.

But, within the link you just provided, there's a comment that would seem to show that artemisinin wouldn't need extra iron, because researchers have added it:

"To improve those odds, the researchers added a small chemical tag to artemisinin that sticks to the “iron needed here” protein signal."
​

So, maybe A. annua (the cheaper, unaltered option) would be okay with more iron. Also, maybe it could be just as simple as taking vitamin C in the morning (forgot where I read that) to make the current iron in your body more available. I say this as a total layman, so anyone correct me.

 

[Mossy]

Dear Mossy
It is my findings that Artemisinin is a 'kind' chemotherapy more than a cure and it will probably produce a degree of anaemia given time. This, I think, but am not entirely sure, is a function more of the ability to mobilise iron from storage in the cancer state (I suspect iron stores are available). To do so is likely against the body's best interests. Rest is important to healing and the lack of rest makes the symptoms of anaemia more taxing. Ignoring the new plug for supplements, this site had some interesting information on the anaemia of chronic disease. http://www.irondisorders.org/anemia-of-chronic-disease I have found Artemisinin of greater benefit with older people as usually their cancer system is slower to develop and Art. is better able to keep things in check. In my experience it's part of a plan, not the whole plan. And no, I wouldn't consider iron supplementation per se, seen too many issues from this down stream - often seemingly unconnected until one looks back carefully.
I would be interested if you found the mechanism re Art and slower breakdown of nicotine et al., that might be most useful to understand.
Best regards
Sheila

Hi Sheila,

I appreciate the response. As I've noted before (ad naseum), I'm just a layman in a poor health state doing my best to research and overcome this state--so, I'll do my best to understand what you've written. I'll check out that link as well--thank you.

Based on your comments, it would seem A. annua (versus arteminsinin) would be better for one not officially diagnosed with cancer, as of yet. From my limited knowledge, I would agree with not supplementing iron; my thought would be to get it from liver, or other natural sources, and use vitamin C to make it available. If there is any truth to this.

I can share that my two low doses of A. annua made me feel so bad, I'm not going to take it again for a while. At least until I can find a way to counter the negative effects of: heart palpitations; taxed breathing; low blood sugar (seemingly); GI distress; and overall malaise. Funny enough, these symptoms do match with some I've found noted on drugs.com:

"Adverse Reactions
Clinical trial data documents GI complaints such as abdominal pain, diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting. Pruritus, urticaria, and rash have been reported as well as pain and abscess development at the injection site. Cardiovascular changes include bradycardia and prolongation of the QT interval. Metabolic changes include hypoglycemia."
​

As I find more on the nicotine+ breakdown, I'll post.

Thanks again.

 

[Sheila]

Hello dear Mossy,
I am sorry to hear you are unwell. I do hope the best for your self guided recovery.

The Artemisia family are quite potent and I am not sure if you have been taking tablets of dried herb, making tea or via (alcohol) tincture or in some other manner. A regular, small sip over time for a weak tea might be better tolerated but you would not be alone in getting adverse effects to this plant family and for some reason it might just not be tolerable to you - ever or at this point in time. What you might have experienced sounds like a slight allergic reaction (which can have knock on heart and blood sugar effects) and this can be physical or chemical irritation or both as the plant compounds encounter your stomach and then blood stream. If your system tends to be reactive generally, you may wish to consider reducing that by more easily digested foods that do not in any way induce histamine or similar reactions in you. Most compounds that induce irritation work against good health, even if the compound itself seems of some benefit.

If it is any comfort, we are all laymen here really, because the more you 'know' the more you realise you don't know. Each person's health is hugely complex and everyone reacts to things differently including things that 'should' work. We are not truly represented by the tidy biochemical equations and tests; the difference between in vitro (test tube) and in vivo (test subject) is often profound and the difference between 'trials' and the real world, can be further apart still. Paying close attention to cause and effect, working slowly and systematically and having - first do no harm - as a guiding principle may be of assistance and, as a bonus, one gets to understand oneself so much better in the process.

I wish you well,
Sincerely,
Sheila

 

[Mossy]

Hello dear Mossy,
I am sorry to hear you are unwell. I do hope the best for your self guided recovery.

The Artemisia family are quite potent and I am not sure if you have been taking tablets of dried herb, making tea or via (alcohol) tincture or in some other manner. A regular, small sip over time for a weak tea might be better tolerated but you would not be alone in getting adverse effects to this plant family and for some reason it might just not be tolerable to you - ever or at this point in time. What you might have experienced sounds like a slight allergic reaction (which can have knock on heart and blood sugar effects) and this can be physical or chemical irritation or both as the plant compounds encounter your stomach and then blood stream. If your system tends to be reactive generally, you may wish to consider reducing that by more easily digested foods that do not in any way induce histamine or similar reactions in you. Most compounds that induce irritation work against good health, even if the compound itself seems of some benefit.

If it is any comfort, we are all laymen here really, because the more you 'know' the more you realise you don't know. Each person's health is hugely complex and everyone reacts to things differently including things that 'should' work. We are not truly represented by the tidy biochemical equations and tests; the difference between in vitro (test tube) and in vivo (test subject) is often profound and the difference between 'trials' and the real world, can be further apart still. Paying close attention to cause and effect, working slowly and systematically and having - first do no harm - as a guiding principle may be of assistance and, as a bonus, one gets to understand oneself so much better in the process.

I wish you well,
Sincerely,
Sheila

Hello Sheila,

Your response is encouraging and comforting--thank you. You touched upon a lot of the common sense principles that we tend to loose in our wild dash for the quickest solution. I'll take these to heart as I delve into this Peat world for answers.

I was taking a dried encapsulated herb extract labeled as Artemisia annua, which I had seen labeled as A. annua. Thankfully, I started with 1/4 of the 425mg capsule, about 106mg. As you say, it may have been a mild allergic reaction, which I get often; or, just an ill body dealing poorly with a powerful herb. Either way, I'll definitely stop it for now. As I get better health, I may try a weak tea of it, as you suggest.

For now, "first do no harm" is a good motto to go by.

Blessings and Peace.

 

[lollipop]

If it is any comfort, we are all laymen here really, because the more you 'know' the more you realise you don't know. Each person's health is hugely complex and everyone reacts to things differently including things that 'should' work. We are not truly represented by the tidy biochemical equations and tests; the difference between in vitro (test tube) and in vivo (test subject) is often profound and the difference between 'trials' and the real world, can be further apart still. Paying close attention to cause and effect, working slowly and systematically and having - first do no harm - as a guiding principle may be of assistance and, as a bonus, one gets to understand oneself so much better in the process.

This is such sage advice. Everyone please take note. This explains why I have always felt “my” or “your” n=1 is incredibly valuable information.

 

[Braveheart]

https://www.researchmatters.in/news/scientists-study-ability-sweet-wormwood-fighting-breast-cancer

 

[Obi-wan]

I was getting brain fog after lunch. Just started taking Artemisinin after lunch. No brain fog...

 

[Mossy]

I was getting brain fog after lunch. Just started taking Artemisinin after lunch. No brain fog...

That's good news. I don't doubt the effectiveness of this herb--I just need to find a way to take it. It was one of the worst reactions I've ever had to any supplement, and I've had so many I've lost count.

It will be a while before I try this again, but it's definitely on my list of things I'd like to take.

 

[mosaic01]

Dear Mossy
It is my findings that Artemisinin is a 'kind' chemotherapy more than a cure and it will probably produce a degree of anaemia given time. This, I think, but am not entirely sure, is a function more of the ability to mobilise iron from storage in the cancer state (I suspect iron stores are available). To do so is likely against the body's best interests. Rest is important to healing and the lack of rest makes the symptoms of anaemia more taxing. Ignoring the new plug for supplements, this site had some interesting information on the anaemia of chronic disease. http://www.irondisorders.org/anemia-of-chronic-disease I have found Artemisinin of greater benefit with older people as usually their cancer system is slower to develop and Art. is better able to keep things in check. In my experience it's part of a plan, not the whole plan. And no, I wouldn't consider iron supplementation per se, seen too many issues from this down stream - often seemingly unconnected until one looks back carefully.
I would be interested if you found the mechanism re Art and slower breakdown of nicotine et al., that might be most useful to understand.
Best regards
Sheila

Where is your evidence that it produces anaemia?

 

[Sheila]

Hello Dear Mosaic01

Perhaps these will assist you, there are many more. That does not mean it is not a useful treatment, merely something to be aware of. I have also seen this personally in people taking Artemisinin, who may, or may not already have the anaemia of chronic disease.

Anaemia following Artemisinin-Based Combination Treatments of Uncomplicated Plasmodium falciparum Malaria in Children: Temporal Patterns of Haemato... - PubMed - NCBI
Haemolysis associated with the treatment of malaria with artemisinin derivatives: a systematic review of current evidence - ScienceDirect

Antimalarial drug artemisinin depletes erythrocytes by activating apoptotic pathways in zebrafish. - PubMed - NCBI

"Despite its extraordinary efficacy, administration of the major antimalarial drug artemisinin leads to anaemia, and the underlying cellular and molecular mechanisms are not well understood. Here, we report the effects of artemisinin on erythroid development and apoptosis in zebrafish and human cells. ... Taken together, our data suggested that artemisinin, in addition to killing parasites, has a direct action on differentiated erythrocytes other than definitive hematopoietic stem cells and causes erythroid apoptosis by interfering with the heme biosynthesis pathway in zebrafish and human cells."

Since one of Artemisinin's mechanisms is through iron-mediated oxidations there's the chance that it may have an effect on hemoglobin on some people. The Nutricology brand cautions that hemoglobin should be monitored,

NutriCology Allergy Research Artemisinin 200 mg 90 Veg Caps - Swanson Health Products
"Caution: Not indicated for pregnant or nursing women. Long term administration (greater than 1 month) should be monitored by a healthcare practitioner and include liver enzymes and hemoglobin testing. Combining with antioxidants or iron may theoretically decrease effectiveness. Detoxification reactions may be experienced by some individuals. "

Kind regards
Sheila

 

[Travis]

It's the foulest thing I've ever tasted, and there's the lowest circle of hell reserved for constant filtering of wormwood into the sinner's orifice.

I know the place. That circle would be the Hell Ring Seven, room №237—or directly adjacent to this one here.

 

[burtlancast]

Antimalarial drug artemisinin depletes erythrocytes by activating apoptotic pathways in zebrafish. - PubMed - NCBI

"Despite its extraordinary efficacy, administration of the major antimalarial drug artemisinin leads to anaemia, and the underlying cellular and molecular mechanisms are not well understood. Here, we report the effects of artemisinin on erythroid development and apoptosis in zebrafish and human cells. ... Taken together, our data suggested that artemisinin, in addition to killing parasites, has a direct action on differentiated erythrocytes other than definitive hematopoietic stem cells and causes erythroid apoptosis by interfering with the heme biosynthesis pathway in zebrafish and human cells."

Going through the details of the article, one realizes that what it references as "human differentiated erythrocytes" are actually K562 cells , aka human immortalised myelogenous leukemia line cells.

artemisinin induced apoptosis in erythrocytes in zebrafish embryos, as assessed by terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase dUTP nick end labeling assay, and preferentially acted on differentiated erythrocytes by elevating caspase 8 and caspase 9 activity in differentiated human K562 cells.

So, unless something escapes me, all this article proves (besides the animal embryo data which cannot possibly translate to humans) is that artemisinin is an effective treatment for leukemia, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Obi-wan]

I will say it again.Taking it after lunch stopped my brain fog. I take it after dinner also. Travis, now I know where you keep your pinapples

 

[Mossy]

After reading of the success of many here with artemisinin/artemisia, I would like to try it again, but as I had mentioned, it gave me one of the worst reactions yet, and it seems to have been the catalyst to putting me in a worse state. Granted, there are too many variables to say it was the Art, but in an attempt to convince myself to try this again, is there such a thing as the infamous Herxheimer reaction , and could there be threshold, a tipping point, that I could get over?

Well, once again, I'm kind of thinking out loud, and probably already know the answer--try it and see. As Sheila had suggested, I think I would try a weak tea first, and slowly build up.

 

[greengr]

Would artemisia annua and red light together cause reactions?

 

[Braveheart]

Was researching Artemisinin interactions with antioxidants because I am starting Pauling Therapy and still continue to take Art.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...idants_on_Cytotoxicity_of_Dihydroartemisinin_

in short, take Art away from C...confirmed this w Dr. Lai of WSU...but I am not sure at all of my very big dose of C...6000mg...maybe guinea pig under Dr. Lai direction

 

[danishispsychic]

I have taken a lot of it- I think it is good to take breathers and possibly know what shape your liver is in before taking a lot of it . It is an excellent antiparasitic - but.... well... once you have all the acid trip dreams for the first two weeks- take a couple weeks off and then start again. :) Pulse dose that stuff. Here is Bill talking about it -

 

[Braveheart]

I have taken a lot of it- I think it is good to take breathers and possibly know what shape your liver is in before taking a lot of it . It is an excellent antiparasitic - but.... well... once you have all the acid trip dreams for the first two weeks- take a couple weeks off and then start again. :) Pulse dose that stuff. Here is Bill talking about it -

yes, for cancer etc...4 days on 3 days off..body gets used to it very quickly.

 

[Mossy]

Was researching Artemisinin interactions with antioxidants because I am starting Pauling Therapy and still continue to take Art.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...idants_on_Cytotoxicity_of_Dihydroartemisinin_

in short, take Art away from C...confirmed this w Dr. Lai of WSU...but I am not sure at all of my very big dose of C...6000mg...maybe guinea pig under Dr. Lai direction

Thanks for the reference, bzmazu.

After scanning through, I thought it may help others to highlight that part about vitamin C:

However, one must be careful in taking vitamin C in
combination with DHA. Ascorbate can convert ferric iron into
ferrous iron (18), the active form that reacts with artemisinin,
generating short lived free radicals. If this happens in the
stomach of a person who is consuming artemisinin along with
ascorbate, ascorbate will convert ferric iron in foods to the
ferrous form, which may react with artemisinin locally,
making the therapy less effective. To avoid this issue, ascor -
bate may be administered intravenously or taken orally at a
different time of day as artemisinin.

Effects of Antioxidants and Pro-oxidants... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...droartemisinin_to_Molt-4_Human_Leukemia_Cells [accessed May 03 2018].

Also, it seems D3 is neutral:

Our results indicate that vitamin D3
reduces leukemia cell growth independently but has no
significant interaction effect with DHA. The reason of the
lack of an interaction effect is unknown. Perhaps, vitamin D3
becomes an antioxidant in cancer cells at longer time points.
It may be of interest to study the interaction of vitamin D3
levels with artemisinin in vivo, as vitamin D3is involved in
regulation of calcium and phosphorus intake (22), immune
function (23) and, thus, may be involved in more complex
interactions with DHA in cancer cells.

Effects of Antioxidants and Pro-oxidants... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...droartemisinin_to_Molt-4_Human_Leukemia_Cells [accessed May 03 2018].

Lastly, if I'm understanding correctly, it looks like vitamin E may negatively effect Art:

Our results with the water-
soluble vitamin E analog, Trolox, alone show an increase in
leukemia cell growth at the 24h time point, with no
significant interaction with DHA. Vitamin E has been shown
to decrease the antiangiogenic effects of artemisinin (26);
thus, it is pertinent to study how it interacts with DHA in
vivo, where angiogenesis is a major factor in tumor growth.

Effects of Antioxidants and Pro-oxidants... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...droartemisinin_to_Molt-4_Human_Leukemia_Cells [accessed May 03 2018].

Greater minds, feel free to correct any of this.

 

[Braveheart]

In my voluminous folder of Artemisinin references I find this article to be very good...it highlights the latest trend of moving from the pure manufactured Artemisinin drug to the more affordable and effective Artemisia leaf extract...this has proven to be more effective for malaria...whether that also goes for cancer, not so clear to me yet...but I believe so, and I now have added the leaf extract to my Art. regimen.
Artemisia Annua, Artemisinin & 2015 Nobel Prize in Medicine – Mihaela Catalina Stanciu Foundation for Life