Everyone Should Recognize High Endotoxin States

Cirion

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It really is the case that there is no perfect food. All foods have their downfall and I think this is what many would probably be better to remind themselves of, lest they spend their lifetime switching back and forth to different foods. I have spent so many years doing this and just decided to accept that no perfect food exists and that I just have to pick the foods with the least issues. All foods have give and take, but I try to focus on what foods take the least and give the most, in the context of being conducive to a healthy metabolism. I think this is the case with dairy for me. I tried experimenting and doing no dairy during my journey Peating, but always found that I eventually ran into problems down the road because whatever reasons this or that food I perceived to cause me problems, I ran my body down because I either ran into slight deficiencies or just tore my body down because I wasn't giving it the nutrition it needed to cope with the stress, because the foods I cut out often were not replicable, so I was lacking certain nutrients, or the foods I would replace with the ones I cut out took more from me and gave me less.

This is the issue I find myself in with milk. Milk may have some take, but it by fair seems to be the only protein source that takes the least and gives the most. I do okay on gelatin + egg whites, but problem is, those are empty calories with just protein and cannot come near to replacing milk. And this is especially important when you are in the truest 'Peat' sense watching your PUFA calories and want to nutritionally maximize them as much as possible (which milk accomplishes far more than any other protein source). It seems like all the other protein sources, while having a place, perhaps, seem to be very limited in being staples and giving more than they take because people seem to run into more issues with down the road them when they make up a large part of the diet. (meat and too much iron and problematic amino acids, egg whites having the same issue with problematic amino acids, and even when paired with gelatin, still are nutritionally empty unlike dairy; shellfish would be too high in PUFA in very large amounts needed to rely on as a main protein source; and even greek yogurt is very lacking in nutrients compared to milk, etc.)

So the way I look at it is, I have to make milk work for me if it doesn't. Thats how I was when I didn't handle it well, before cleaning out my gut with charcoal, flowers of sulfur, and carrots.

If someone doesn't handle milk, maybe try this protocol that is used to overcome milk intolerance:

WO2000061155A1 - Composition, containing sublimed sulfur, for the treatment of lactose intolerance - Google Patents

Ray recommends a few pinches of the sulfur for a few days. This worked for some, but not for others. For them they had to do the protocol which uses more of the stuff. But there is evidence that suggests lactose intolerance is mainly a gut bacterial issue, and this protocol that is used and seems to have success seems to agree with that idea. Anyway, the link is included above for anyone who want to experiment with it to try to overcome dairy intolerance. It worked well for me.

Thanks for this post. I have been guilty of trying to develop the "perfect" diet too. I do think there may be such a thing as "optimal" but there's definitely not "perfect". without drinking lots of milk, there is no reasonable way to get a high calcium:phosphorus ratio while also keeping PUFA low. I historically have lots of issues with milk also, but I am determined to make it work long term. I used to eat a lot of beef or even eggs for protein, but like you, I have come to realize they tend to take more than they give and noticed the same thing with yogurts, shellfish, etc as you. I still think occasional organ meat is probably a good idea though, but other than that, sticking to milk and gelatin.

What was your full charcoal/sulfur/carrot protocol? the sulfur looks like 200 mg a day from the study.
 

johnwester130

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I have noticed mine. Sore throat. Aches in my wrists. Feeling of malaise.

I used to think "I am coming down with something," but now I recognize this as a high endotoxin state.

What to do about it? Riboflavin seems to help. Charcoal. Methylene blue.

This is me after a high stress meal

 

Waremu

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Could taurine also help with the digestion of milk? It has sulfur in it. Maybe that's why I can digest goat milk with no issue. I take a lot of taurine daily, from shrimps, Red Bull, and supplements. I also take charcoal every other day. I noticed in the days I drink OJ, I can't digest milk. Almost all OJ brands bloat me and makes weird bacteria war in my stomach that I can't tolerate milk for at least the next two days. We are a desert country. Maybe our genes haven't evolved to eat oranges. I will look into dates because I think I can tolerate them just fine. Also, we have goats everywhere.


Quite possibly, but I am not too sure about that. I would imagine if you notice consistent results with milk tolerance and taurine then it is possible that it may, assuming it’s the isolated amino acid supplement. It would seem to make sense, though I don’t think it would be as potent as flowers of sulfur.
 

Waremu

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Messages
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Thanks for this post. I have been guilty of trying to develop the "perfect" diet too. I do think there may be such a thing as "optimal" but there's definitely not "perfect". without drinking lots of milk, there is no reasonable way to get a high calcium:phosphorus ratio while also keeping PUFA low. I historically have lots of issues with milk also, but I am determined to make it work long term. I used to eat a lot of beef or even eggs for protein, but like you, I have come to realize they tend to take more than they give and noticed the same thing with yogurts, shellfish, etc as you. I still think occasional organ meat is probably a good idea though, but other than that, sticking to milk and gelatin.

What was your full charcoal/sulfur/carrot protocol? the sulfur looks like 200 mg a day from the study.


Oh yeah, I agree. Even with milk, I still think over and oysters are essential for the extra needed copper and zinc, etc.

I cut out milk and used only Greek yogurt for my protein while I did the protocol. I took activated charcoal in very large amounts 2-3 times per week for the first month. The amount was probably 1/4 of a cup or close to it mixed with juice or water. Also drank it with garlic and ginger tea at times. I took it before bed on an empty stomach with juice. After a month of doing that, I began the flowers of sulfur protocol as described in the protocol. I ate my daily carrot twice per day on an empty stocmach between my meals. That’s pretty much it. I then slowly reintroduced milk back in. Yep, that’s the correct amount of sulfur as well. Some people react to sulfur to sulfur decently so I would try using it in small pinches as Peat recommended, for a few days. If you notice no bad side effects, you can probably handle the larger amounts as described in the protocol.
 

Cirion

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I have already tried one or two big doses of activated charcoal & sublimed sulfur with limited effect, but I only did it once or twice. I think I'm definitely one of the cases that needs to do several big doses to get any results, so I'll try that soon.
 

GreekDemiGod

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How do you guys manage to eat over 3000 calories / day if you eliminate starch?
I lift weights 4 - 5 times / week and need to eat around 3500 cal/ day. The only starch sources I currently eat are white potatoes and white rice. They help me in raising my calories.
I'd be willing to test a starch-free diet, but I'm concerned with hitting my energy intake, with so many restrictions in place.
 

Nigluva

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Sep 25, 2019
Messages
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I have noticed mine. Sore throat. Aches in my wrists. Feeling of malaise.

I used to think "I am coming down with something," but now I recognize this as a high endotoxin state.

What to do about it? Riboflavin seems to help. Charcoal. Methylene blue.


How long does yours last? Do you find it feels worse in morning and at night?
 

gaze

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it definitely seems tht most diseases is either from endotoxin reaction or a susceptibility to certain infections to due weakened cellular energy once the cells take up water and become spongy and leaky (which is also caused by endotoxin). Peat even said once the gut cells become spongy and leaky endotoxin can get into the blood stream (leaky gut) and reach the brain which leads to things like multiple sclerosis. Any food that is not properly digested can be a threat, so the question then becomes should we avoid every possible threat or try to create a body which can digest anyfood. It seems the benefit of exercise comes from the speeding up of the digestive track, leading to quicker absorbtion of food = less time for food to ferment. It seems that an organism in a negative feed back loop, even fruit with a tad too much water can cause issues. I think the reason commercial orange juice and such cause problems for some is because the ratio of water to minerals is slightly lower then unpasteurized fruit, which prevents endotoxin absorption even more. the minimization of endotoxin is the key to "feeling" healthy
 
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yerrag

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I wasn't understanding at all why what I've been experiencing in my high endotoxin state isn't being experienced by all of you, while what's being mentioned in this thread as signs of high endotoxin isn't what I'm experiencing. I think I may have an answer for me, and I'll share it with you.

I think I'm already at a point where my system is already used to a high endotoxin load in my body. Being in this state, my immune system is constantly on red alert. This state makes my system ready to fight off insults, be it allergens or infections (The endotoxin load puts my body in a state of low-grade inflammation constantly, and this has the effect of raising my body temperature as well). So it is that I can brag about myself being immune to allergens and infections, and that I haven't been sick with fever or flu since as far back as Y2k. For the longest time I've wondered why some people who never had a sick day in the office would one day not show up, and the next thing people hear is that he has cancer. Could it be because a very high endotoxin state has been giving this false appearance and confidence? I digress.

This brings me back to why you guys are so prone to endotoxins while I'm not. It's because the same amount of endotoxins would be a big deal for you, while for me it's just a drop in the bucket. You don't have real high chronic endotoxemia, and I do. What sets me apart ( as many of you already know) is that I've accumulated all these endotoxins over more than 15 years in a hidden case of periodontal infection. The endotoxins (as well as bacteria) get through to blood, and over this period has built up in the blood vessels and form a portion of the atherosclerotic plaque. A large portion of it stays dormant, while some provide enough stimulation for a low-grade level of inflammation.

Because you're not used to enough endotoxins in your system, you are more sensitive to reacting to them, especially when you have an occasional case of high endotoxin load. On the other hand, it's a case of 'been there done that, what else is new?' for my body. Having said that, I hope you all can rest easy being endotoxin-sensitive.

If you want to help me confirm this theory, there's something we can check - your CBC test. There would be a marker called monocytes. My monocytes had a value of 3 way back in 2002. That was before I began to experience hypertension. These days, its value fluctuates from 6 to 9. Monocytes are the largest white blood cells, and they turn into macrophages as they near the endothelial lining of the blood vessels. They are involved in the TLR4 inflammatory response, and it involves endotoxins being complexed with albumin forming LBP (LPS Binding Protein) before forming CD14, an acute phase protein, that triggers the TLR4 inflammatory response ( I hope I explained that right). So, high monocytes are a marker for a high endotoxin level in the blood (As an aside, in case you're wondering how hypertension is related to our discussion, the inflammatory response causes vasoconstriction which causes hypertension.)

Please pm me your monocyte value, and tell me how your sensitivity to endotoxins is manifested (e.g. colds, coughs etc) or say N/A if you're not sensitive to endotoxins. I hope to get a good sample size. This will test my theory of whether serum monocyte levels can effect our sensitivity to endotoxin insults. Or if you prefer, just post it in this thread.

Lastly, to share my experience with chronically high endotoxemia, I want to remark that much of the discussion in the forum is focused on the gut as a source of endotoxins. Not much is discussed about endotoxins coming from periodontal infections, and no mention is made of endotoxins (and bacteria) harbored in the vascular plaques. I am a victim of periodontal infection, the cause of my hypertension. I eliminated the source last year, but hypertension persists because the endotoxins exist in plaque, and undisturbed, still cause low-grade inflammation and hypertension. When I attempt to remove plaque by lysing with proteolytic enzymes, I experience higher blood pressure from the strong inflammatory response from a large load of endotoxins from the plaque being broken down. When this happens, I would experience frequent urination. During the day, I would pee every 45 minutes. At night, it would disturb my sleep so much.

Take very good care of your teeth. Don't be lax like me with the regular propylaxis. Most of us have enough endotoxins to cause teeth to be penetrated by endotoxins, leading to infection, to form hidden periodontal pockets of infection. Strengthen your teeth with enough dietary calcium intake so it's stronger against endotoxins. And don't forget the carrot salad and cooked bamboo shoots, activated charcoal. And insoluble fiber is good, as Ray has talked about them this month in his interviews (with Patrick Timpone and with Jodelle) as insoluble fiber absorbs endotoxins and paves the way for the endotoxins to be excreted.
 
Last edited:

milkboi

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I wasn't understanding at all why what I've been experiencing in my high endotoxin state isn't being experienced by all of you, while what's being mentioned in this thread as signs of high endotoxin isn't what I'm experiencing. I think I may have an answer for me, and I'll share it with you.

I think I'm already at a point where my system is already used to a high endotoxin load in my body. Being in this state, my immune system is constantly on red alert. This state makes my system ready to fight off insults, be it allergens or infections (The endotoxin load puts my body in a state of low-grade inflammation constantly, and this has the effect of raising my body temperature as well). So it is that I can brag about myself being immune to allergens and infections, and that I haven't been sick with fever or flu since as far back as Y2k. For the longest time I've wondered why some people who never had a sick day in the office would one day not show up, and the next thing people hear is that he has cancer. Could it be because a very high endotoxin state has been giving this false appearance and confidence? I digress.

This brings me back to why you guys are so prone to endotoxins while I'm not. It's because the same amount of endotoxins would be a big deal for you, while for me it's just a drop in the bucket. You don't have real high chronic endotoxemia, and I do. What sets me apart ( as many of you already know) is that I've accumulated all these endotoxins over more than 15 years in a hidden case of periodontal infection. The endotoxins (as well as bacteria) get through to blood, and over this period has built up in the blood vessels and form a portion of the atherosclerotic plaque. A large portion of it stays dormant, while some provide enough stimulation for a low-grade level of inflammation.

Because you're not used to enough endotoxins in your system, you are more sensitive to reacting to them, especially when you have an occasional case of high endotoxin load. On the other hand, it's a case of 'been there done that, what else is new?' for my body. Having said that, I hope you all can rest easy being endotoxin-sensitive.

If you want to help me confirm this theory, there's something we can check - your CBC test. There would be a marker called monocytes. My monocytes had a value of 3 way back in 2002. That was before I began to experience hypertension. These days, its value fluctuates from 6 to 9. Monocytes are the largest white blood cells, and they turn into macrophages as they near the endothelial lining of the blood vessels. They are involved in the TLR4 inflammatory response, and it involves endotoxins being complexed with albumin forming LBP (LPS Binding Protein) before forming CD14, an acute phase protein, that triggers the TLR4 inflammatory response ( I hope I explained that right). So, high monocytes are a marker for a high endotoxin level in the blood (As an aside, in case you're wondering how hypertension is related to our discussion, the inflammatory response causes vasodilation which causes hypertension.)

Please pm me your monocyte value, and tell me how your sensitivity to endotoxins is manifested (e.g. colds, coughs etc) or say N/A if you're not sensitive to endotoxins. I hope to get a good sample size. This will test my theory of whether serum monocyte levels can effect our sensitivity to endotoxin insults. Or if you prefer, just post it in this thread.

Lastly, to share my experience with chronically high endotoxemia, I want to remark that much of the discussion in the forum is focused on the gut as a source of endotoxins. Not much is discussed about endotoxins coming from periodontal infections, and no mention is made of endotoxins (and bacteria) harbored in the vascular plaques. I am a victim of periodontal infection, the cause of my hypertension. I eliminated the source last year, but hypertension persists because the endotoxins exist in plaque, and undisturbed, still cause low-grade inflammation and hypertension. When I attempt to remove plaque by lysing with proteolytic enzymes, I experience higher blood pressure from the strong inflammatory response from a large load of endotoxins from the plaque being broken down. When this happens, I would experience frequent urination. During the day, I would pee every 45 minutes. At night, it would disturb my sleep so much.

Take very good care of your teeth. Don't be lax like me with the regular propylaxis. Most of us have enough endotoxins to cause teeth to be penetrated by endotoxins, leading to infection, to form hidden periodontal pockets of infection. Strengthen your teeth with enough dietary calcium intake so it's stronger against endotoxins. And don't forget the carrot salad and cooked bamboo shoots, activated charcoal. And insoluble fiber is good, as Ray has talked about them this month in his interviews (with Patrick Timpone and with Jodelle) as insoluble fiber absorbs endotoxins and paves the way for the endotoxins to be excreted.

If my doc agrees, I will test this in about a month.
 

InChristAlone

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I wasn't understanding at all why what I've been experiencing in my high endotoxin state isn't being experienced by all of you, while what's being mentioned in this thread as signs of high endotoxin isn't what I'm experiencing. I think I may have an answer for me, and I'll share it with you.

I think I'm already at a point where my system is already used to a high endotoxin load in my body. Being in this state, my immune system is constantly on red alert. This state makes my system ready to fight off insults, be it allergens or infections (The endotoxin load puts my body in a state of low-grade inflammation constantly, and this has the effect of raising my body temperature as well). So it is that I can brag about myself being immune to allergens and infections, and that I haven't been sick with fever or flu since as far back as Y2k. For the longest time I've wondered why some people who never had a sick day in the office would one day not show up, and the next thing people hear is that he has cancer. Could it be because a very high endotoxin state has been giving this false appearance and confidence? I digress.

This brings me back to why you guys are so prone to endotoxins while I'm not. It's because the same amount of endotoxins would be a big deal for you, while for me it's just a drop in the bucket. You don't have real high chronic endotoxemia, and I do. What sets me apart ( as many of you already know) is that I've accumulated all these endotoxins over more than 15 years in a hidden case of periodontal infection. The endotoxins (as well as bacteria) get through to blood, and over this period has built up in the blood vessels and form a portion of the atherosclerotic plaque. A large portion of it stays dormant, while some provide enough stimulation for a low-grade level of inflammation.

Because you're not used to enough endotoxins in your system, you are more sensitive to reacting to them, especially when you have an occasional case of high endotoxin load. On the other hand, it's a case of 'been there done that, what else is new?' for my body. Having said that, I hope you all can rest easy being endotoxin-sensitive.

If you want to help me confirm this theory, there's something we can check - your CBC test. There would be a marker called monocytes. My monocytes had a value of 3 way back in 2002. That was before I began to experience hypertension. These days, its value fluctuates from 6 to 9. Monocytes are the largest white blood cells, and they turn into macrophages as they near the endothelial lining of the blood vessels. They are involved in the TLR4 inflammatory response, and it involves endotoxins being complexed with albumin forming LBP (LPS Binding Protein) before forming CD14, an acute phase protein, that triggers the TLR4 inflammatory response ( I hope I explained that right). So, high monocytes are a marker for a high endotoxin level in the blood (As an aside, in case you're wondering how hypertension is related to our discussion, the inflammatory response causes vasoconstriction which causes hypertension.)

Please pm me your monocyte value, and tell me how your sensitivity to endotoxins is manifested (e.g. colds, coughs etc) or say N/A if you're not sensitive to endotoxins. I hope to get a good sample size. This will test my theory of whether serum monocyte levels can effect our sensitivity to endotoxin insults. Or if you prefer, just post it in this thread.

Lastly, to share my experience with chronically high endotoxemia, I want to remark that much of the discussion in the forum is focused on the gut as a source of endotoxins. Not much is discussed about endotoxins coming from periodontal infections, and no mention is made of endotoxins (and bacteria) harbored in the vascular plaques. I am a victim of periodontal infection, the cause of my hypertension. I eliminated the source last year, but hypertension persists because the endotoxins exist in plaque, and undisturbed, still cause low-grade inflammation and hypertension. When I attempt to remove plaque by lysing with proteolytic enzymes, I experience higher blood pressure from the strong inflammatory response from a large load of endotoxins from the plaque being broken down. When this happens, I would experience frequent urination. During the day, I would pee every 45 minutes. At night, it would disturb my sleep so much.

Take very good care of your teeth. Don't be lax like me with the regular propylaxis. Most of us have enough endotoxins to cause teeth to be penetrated by endotoxins, leading to infection, to form hidden periodontal pockets of infection. Strengthen your teeth with enough dietary calcium intake so it's stronger against endotoxins. And don't forget the carrot salad and cooked bamboo shoots, activated charcoal. And insoluble fiber is good, as Ray has talked about them this month in his interviews (with Patrick Timpone and with Jodelle) as insoluble fiber absorbs endotoxins and paves the way for the endotoxins to be excreted.
I agree it much attention is paid to mouth infections. And it is very important. I use a waterpik with ozonated water.
 

yerrag

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If my doc agrees, I will test this in about a month.

Thanks for your very supportive response on my effort to confirm my theory about the relationship of monocyte levels to the level of endotoxin exposure in our blood.

I am hopeful that there are many members here could just reach out to their current CBC records and look up their monocyte levels and assist in this. I would like to think that of all people, this forum are composed of people who make the effort and time to improve their health. And in a health forum of Ray Peat's where endotoxin is a subject of great relevance, there would be many members who would find it in their interest to understand more about endotoxins and their relationship to health, quality of life, and longevity.

I can understand that there may be people who's never taken any CBC tests before, or don't keep any records of their blood tests, or in this modern age, can't access their blood tests online for one reason or another. I'm greatly appreciative of those who respond positively, and in the future I would be more accommodating to them, and even go out of my way for them. Given the volunteer nature of members of this forum, it may be a hard hurdle for me to elicit responses to my simple request, and so this would possibly be the last time I expect from this forum some semblance of a voluntary cooperative spirit that is mutually beneficial.

Here is something I'd like to share that's good reading on endotoxins (it's only a click away):

Endotoxemia—menace, marker, or mistake?

I've found it one very informative article. You'll just have to read it if you're very interested about endotoxins.
 

yerrag

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To any who would object to my sarcasm, I'm aware of it and it isn't unintentional. So if you are incensed, that's just fine with me.
 

Mossy

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Jun 2, 2017
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I wasn't understanding at all why what I've been experiencing in my high endotoxin state isn't being experienced by all of you, while what's being mentioned in this thread as signs of high endotoxin isn't what I'm experiencing. I think I may have an answer for me, and I'll share it with you.

I think I'm already at a point where my system is already used to a high endotoxin load in my body. Being in this state, my immune system is constantly on red alert. This state makes my system ready to fight off insults, be it allergens or infections (The endotoxin load puts my body in a state of low-grade inflammation constantly, and this has the effect of raising my body temperature as well). So it is that I can brag about myself being immune to allergens and infections, and that I haven't been sick with fever or flu since as far back as Y2k. For the longest time I've wondered why some people who never had a sick day in the office would one day not show up, and the next thing people hear is that he has cancer. Could it be because a very high endotoxin state has been giving this false appearance and confidence? I digress.

This brings me back to why you guys are so prone to endotoxins while I'm not. It's because the same amount of endotoxins would be a big deal for you, while for me it's just a drop in the bucket. You don't have real high chronic endotoxemia, and I do. What sets me apart ( as many of you already know) is that I've accumulated all these endotoxins over more than 15 years in a hidden case of periodontal infection. The endotoxins (as well as bacteria) get through to blood, and over this period has built up in the blood vessels and form a portion of the atherosclerotic plaque. A large portion of it stays dormant, while some provide enough stimulation for a low-grade level of inflammation.

Because you're not used to enough endotoxins in your system, you are more sensitive to reacting to them, especially when you have an occasional case of high endotoxin load. On the other hand, it's a case of 'been there done that, what else is new?' for my body. Having said that, I hope you all can rest easy being endotoxin-sensitive.

If you want to help me confirm this theory, there's something we can check - your CBC test. There would be a marker called monocytes. My monocytes had a value of 3 way back in 2002. That was before I began to experience hypertension. These days, its value fluctuates from 6 to 9. Monocytes are the largest white blood cells, and they turn into macrophages as they near the endothelial lining of the blood vessels. They are involved in the TLR4 inflammatory response, and it involves endotoxins being complexed with albumin forming LBP (LPS Binding Protein) before forming CD14, an acute phase protein, that triggers the TLR4 inflammatory response ( I hope I explained that right). So, high monocytes are a marker for a high endotoxin level in the blood (As an aside, in case you're wondering how hypertension is related to our discussion, the inflammatory response causes vasoconstriction which causes hypertension.)

Please pm me your monocyte value, and tell me how your sensitivity to endotoxins is manifested (e.g. colds, coughs etc) or say N/A if you're not sensitive to endotoxins. I hope to get a good sample size. This will test my theory of whether serum monocyte levels can effect our sensitivity to endotoxin insults. Or if you prefer, just post it in this thread.

Lastly, to share my experience with chronically high endotoxemia, I want to remark that much of the discussion in the forum is focused on the gut as a source of endotoxins. Not much is discussed about endotoxins coming from periodontal infections, and no mention is made of endotoxins (and bacteria) harbored in the vascular plaques. I am a victim of periodontal infection, the cause of my hypertension. I eliminated the source last year, but hypertension persists because the endotoxins exist in plaque, and undisturbed, still cause low-grade inflammation and hypertension. When I attempt to remove plaque by lysing with proteolytic enzymes, I experience higher blood pressure from the strong inflammatory response from a large load of endotoxins from the plaque being broken down. When this happens, I would experience frequent urination. During the day, I would pee every 45 minutes. At night, it would disturb my sleep so much.

Take very good care of your teeth. Don't be lax like me with the regular propylaxis. Most of us have enough endotoxins to cause teeth to be penetrated by endotoxins, leading to infection, to form hidden periodontal pockets of infection. Strengthen your teeth with enough dietary calcium intake so it's stronger against endotoxins. And don't forget the carrot salad and cooked bamboo shoots, activated charcoal. And insoluble fiber is good, as Ray has talked about them this month in his interviews (with Patrick Timpone and with Jodelle) as insoluble fiber absorbs endotoxins and paves the way for the endotoxins to be excreted.
This is my first knowledge of monocytes. If what you’re saying is accurate, that this reading is a measurement of endotoxin in the blood, this would explain a lot. I feel like I’m constantly fighting something that has me feeling poor, where the feeling of normal is the exception. I checked my last 7 blood tests which span 5 years, and I’ve had one reading of 8, and all others are 9 or 10.
 

yerrag

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This is my first knowledge of monocytes. If what you’re saying is accurate, that this reading is a measurement of endotoxin in the blood, this would explain a lot. I feel like I’m constantly fighting something that has me feeling poor, where the feeling of normal is the exception. I checked my last 7 blood tests which span 5 years, and I’ve had one reading of 8, and all others are 9 or 10.

Thanks for looking up the values. I'm not sure if we can say it's a certainty that high monocytes always equate to high endotoxins. There could be other reasons, which I am just not aware of at the moment. And when the high endotoxin reading is only temporary, as in the case of recovery from bacterial infection, the high monocytes are due to bacterial die-off, and endotoxins (assuming it's a gram-negative bacteria of the sort that gives off a high TLR4- response) would be high, and consequently monocytes would be high as well. During the infection, WBC and neutrophils would also be high, and as the infection goes away, WBC and neutrophil values would taper off, while monocytes would remain high before it tapers off eventually.

So you'll have to use the monocyte information together with other data to know more about your situation. If say your WBC and neutrophils are always low and monocytes are always high, then I could probably say that the source of endotoxins isn't coming from an active infection (such as a periodontal infection) and that it could come either from your guts or from the endotoxins stored in the vascular plaque. And if I should start a program of avoiding foods that increase endotoxin production in the gut, and eat raw carrot salad and cooked bamboo shoots, and take activated charcoal for a significant period, and then I still see high monocyte count, I could consider the probability that I have endotoxin stores slowly being released from my vascular plaque.

What is your current wbc, neutrophil, and monocyte reading? And the past as well. As then maybe we can see a pattern or deduce something from them.
 
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dreamcatcher

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Oct 29, 2016
Messages
863
I have noticed mine. Sore throat. Aches in my wrists. Feeling of malaise.

I used to think "I am coming down with something," but now I recognize this as a high endotoxin state.

What to do about it? Riboflavin seems to help. Charcoal. Methylene blue.
Cyproheptadine.
 

yerrag

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Manila
I agree it much attention is paid to mouth infections. And it is very important. I use a waterpik with ozonated water.
You take great lengths and it pays off many-fold. Prevention is a lot better. Not preventing is 'make work.' That's the story of our healthcare system and its high costs - no prevention and all doubling down on the wrong direction in the rabbit hole.
 

Jam

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I wasn't understanding at all why what I've been experiencing in my high endotoxin state isn't being experienced by all of you, while what's being mentioned in this thread as signs of high endotoxin isn't what I'm experiencing. I think I may have an answer for me, and I'll share it with you.

I think I'm already at a point where my system is already used to a high endotoxin load in my body. Being in this state, my immune system is constantly on red alert. This state makes my system ready to fight off insults, be it allergens or infections (The endotoxin load puts my body in a state of low-grade inflammation constantly, and this has the effect of raising my body temperature as well). So it is that I can brag about myself being immune to allergens and infections, and that I haven't been sick with fever or flu since as far back as Y2k. For the longest time I've wondered why some people who never had a sick day in the office would one day not show up, and the next thing people hear is that he has cancer. Could it be because a very high endotoxin state has been giving this false appearance and confidence? I digress.

This brings me back to why you guys are so prone to endotoxins while I'm not. It's because the same amount of endotoxins would be a big deal for you, while for me it's just a drop in the bucket. You don't have real high chronic endotoxemia, and I do. What sets me apart ( as many of you already know) is that I've accumulated all these endotoxins over more than 15 years in a hidden case of periodontal infection. The endotoxins (as well as bacteria) get through to blood, and over this period has built up in the blood vessels and form a portion of the atherosclerotic plaque. A large portion of it stays dormant, while some provide enough stimulation for a low-grade level of inflammation.

Because you're not used to enough endotoxins in your system, you are more sensitive to reacting to them, especially when you have an occasional case of high endotoxin load. On the other hand, it's a case of 'been there done that, what else is new?' for my body. Having said that, I hope you all can rest easy being endotoxin-sensitive.

If you want to help me confirm this theory, there's something we can check - your CBC test. There would be a marker called monocytes. My monocytes had a value of 3 way back in 2002. That was before I began to experience hypertension. These days, its value fluctuates from 6 to 9. Monocytes are the largest white blood cells, and they turn into macrophages as they near the endothelial lining of the blood vessels. They are involved in the TLR4 inflammatory response, and it involves endotoxins being complexed with albumin forming LBP (LPS Binding Protein) before forming CD14, an acute phase protein, that triggers the TLR4 inflammatory response ( I hope I explained that right). So, high monocytes are a marker for a high endotoxin level in the blood (As an aside, in case you're wondering how hypertension is related to our discussion, the inflammatory response causes vasoconstriction which causes hypertension.)

Please pm me your monocyte value, and tell me how your sensitivity to endotoxins is manifested (e.g. colds, coughs etc) or say N/A if you're not sensitive to endotoxins. I hope to get a good sample size. This will test my theory of whether serum monocyte levels can effect our sensitivity to endotoxin insults. Or if you prefer, just post it in this thread.

Lastly, to share my experience with chronically high endotoxemia, I want to remark that much of the discussion in the forum is focused on the gut as a source of endotoxins. Not much is discussed about endotoxins coming from periodontal infections, and no mention is made of endotoxins (and bacteria) harbored in the vascular plaques. I am a victim of periodontal infection, the cause of my hypertension. I eliminated the source last year, but hypertension persists because the endotoxins exist in plaque, and undisturbed, still cause low-grade inflammation and hypertension. When I attempt to remove plaque by lysing with proteolytic enzymes, I experience higher blood pressure from the strong inflammatory response from a large load of endotoxins from the plaque being broken down. When this happens, I would experience frequent urination. During the day, I would pee every 45 minutes. At night, it would disturb my sleep so much.

Take very good care of your teeth. Don't be lax like me with the regular propylaxis. Most of us have enough endotoxins to cause teeth to be penetrated by endotoxins, leading to infection, to form hidden periodontal pockets of infection. Strengthen your teeth with enough dietary calcium intake so it's stronger against endotoxins. And don't forget the carrot salad and cooked bamboo shoots, activated charcoal. And insoluble fiber is good, as Ray has talked about them this month in his interviews (with Patrick Timpone and with Jodelle) as insoluble fiber absorbs endotoxins and paves the way for the endotoxins to be excreted.

This is all extremely interesting.

FWIW, I know many older people (even in their 80's, I'm 47) who have better teeth than I do, who never took great care of their teeth. But, if like me, you got the short end of the genetic straw (most of my grandparents lost all their teeth once they hit 40), once periodontal problems start to appear it can mostly be too late... so I can't stress the "take very good care of your teeth" mantra strongly enough.

But what's very interesting in all of this, at least to me, is that even though my periodontal health is probably much worse than yours, Yerrag, I have never suffered from "endotoxemia symptoms", as far as I am aware of. I don't know how to explain it. It may very well be that my body is so adapted that I just don't notice. I really should get a CBC done, as it has been a while, but besides the periodontal disease, I suffer from absolutely no health issues or side-effects that I, or doctors, can tell. Blood tests are normal, healthy temps and blood pressure, no allergies, etc, etc. The most severe health issues I've ever had to deal with, outside of getting teeth pulled, are mild cases of the common cold, which only ever last a couple days for me.

But my teeth are in a pitiful state. Since 2012, when I stopped smoking as a result of discovering that I had periodontal disease, I've lost all of my wisdom teeth and 5 molars, at least 4 other teeth have periodontal granulomas, and two incisors are loose, held in place with wires. Today, I would probably have a full set of dentures had I not religiously taken care of my teeth since 2012. That said, I think my periodontal disease is too far along to hope to halt (or better yet reverse) its progression. But it does seem to all be circumscript to my teeth and periodontal tissues, with no adverse effects beyond that (that I am aware of!). Not sure how that can be, and it may very well not be the case. But, for example, for four of my molars that had to be pulled, I was told to take antibiotics, but did not, with no negative consequences. That said, and FWIW, I have never taken an antibiotic in my adult life. (Occasionally, when one of the granulomas becomes more inflamed than normal, I'll drop some SSKI on the tooth/gums and take some copper/zinc aspirinate, and the next day it's back to normal!)
 
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