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Every Year, A Penguin Swims Thousands Of Miles To Visit A Man Who Saved Him

  1. I really liked this story, not only for its feel-good effect, but because it once again illustrates just how intelligent and human-like animals can be. Not to mention that swimming several thousand miles every year, just to be with the person who saved him, flies in the face of all current theories on inherent selfishness of animals, and their purported focus on conserving energy, acquiring resources and generally psychotic behavior exemplified by the motto "Nature is red in tooth and nail". I think the biologists believing in crap like this may need to save a penguin or two before they can produce any scientific progress.

    Long-distance love brings penguin to man who rescued him every year | CBC News
    "...Ever since a 71-year-old Brazilian man rescued a struggling penguin, he's been receiving regular visits from his feathered friend. Joao Pereira de Souza, a retired bricklayer, lives on Proveta, a fishing village just off the coast of Rio de Janeiro. In 2011, he spotted a starving Magellanic penguin drenched in oil on the beach near his house. Naming the penguin Dindim, Pereira de Souza fed him every day until he was strong enough to leave, according to a video from the University of Rio de Janeiro. But the penguin refused to go. Pereira de Souza decided to row a boat out into the water and drop Dindim off to encourage him to swim home. But when he rowed back to shore, he found the penguin waiting for him at his shanty. "He stayed with me for 11 months and then, just after he changed his coat with new feathers, he disappeared" Pereira de Souza told TV Globo, a Brazilian TV network.

    "...Magellanic penguins regularly swim thousands of kilometres a year to breeding spots on the coast of Argentina and Chile. From time to time, penguins show up in warmer Brazilian waters, according to the Wall Street Journal. Many of Pereira de Souza's friends thought that when Dindim finally left, that was it for the human-bird friendship. But a few months later, Dindim returned and found Pereira de Souza. He visits for about four months, a ritual kept for the last five years. "He arrives in June and leaves to go home in February, and every year he becomes more affectionate, as he appears even happier to see me," Pereira de Souza told TV Globo. De Souza appears to be the only person who can get near Dindim. If others try, he pecks them or waddles away. "I think the penguin believes Joao is part of his family and probably a penguin as well," biologist Joao Paulo Krajewski said to the Independent. "When he sees him he wags his tail like a dog and honks with delight." Krajewski helped report the segment for TV Globo, and said that they caught Dindim on his fifth trip out to see Pereira de Souza. "It's really impressive, the love the two of them have," Krajewski said in the segment on the TV Globo show. "I love the penguin like it's my own child," said Pereira de Souza to Globo TV. "And I believe the penguin loves me."
  2. thank you @haidut

    really appreciate this
  3. Beautiful. :penguin:
  4. Yes, made my day! Thanks @haidut.
  5. *Turns into a penguin* - we are all one big :family:
    Just think of the dedication and LOVE it takes to swim several thousand miles just to be with your friend. Like, what else, other than love, would make a living soul do that!?
  6. :nailedit
  7. I have mixed feelings about this story. If animals are indeed more like humans and are intelligent, then how ethical is it to consume animal flesh? If chickens, cows, pigs, and fish are just dumb animals then it doesn't matter if we eat them. Sorry, this is a bit off topic but I have this on my mind lately. How do you all view this topic if it's ethical to eat other living intelligent creatures?
  8. I have been thinking about that and even asked Peat about it. He did not respond to me but did to other people and his responses were mixed. One of them said basically that killing other sentient beings is acceptable only if this is your only option for food. So, hunting would be OK but massive animal farms would certainly not be.
  9. Luckily for us following Ray Peat it is not recommended to eat a lot of meat anyway. You can eat mostly Dairy and Fruit and get all your nutrients. And you don't have to kill anything.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."
  10. There is inherent killing involved in dairy production. Cows need to be pregnant to produce milk. About half the offspring will be male. Farmers can't afford to raise and keep all those bulls/steers, so they get sold off to be raised for meat.

    Even with fruits and vegetables, small animals like rodents, rabbits, etc. get killed during planting, harvesting, etc.

    Not trying to go off on some Whataboutism tangent. I think it just highlights that there are no easy answers to this question. IMO, at the very least it highlights the importance of expressing gratitude to the food we eat.
  11. Seems like there are no karma-free foods then where no death of a living creature is involved. Anyway, Ray Peats focus is on achieving optimal health, regardless if that involves consuming unethical foods.
  12. I think eggs and milk would still be OK. Cows need to be pregnant to give milk but that is OK as it is natural for the cow to get pregnant every year in the wild. Eggs seem to be less of a problem, hens will lay eggs as long as you feed them.
    I guess the issue is if it is done in a dehumanizing way as in large scale farms, akin to prison, where the animals are basically tortured and eventually killed.
  13. Of course this is different but after what was posted about people getting memories of a donor after a transplant, I wonder how we wouldn't be affected negatively by ingesting such meats, amino-acids imbalances aside. Depending on how the animal is raised and killed the meat differs in texture too, so something other than their nutrition must make a noticeable difference.
  14. Animals are more intelligent than humans because they lack hubris like us.
  15. I think we would be, and this is one of the reasons the whole "free-range" movement started. The media tried to portray it as a nothing but a hippie crack dream, and it certainly quickly devolved into a corporate-driven political crusade, which eventually benefits the powers that be. But at least its early steps were based on older studies from the 1960s showing negative health effects from consuming animals subjected to abuse, torture, and (obviously) toxic living conditions that ended up in the meat/milk/eggs.
    If we keep in mind the idea that under stress the levels of cortisol/estrogen/serotonin/histamine/etc can rise several hundred times over normal, then it is quite obvious that eating an animal with such tissues would be bad. At some point Peat was concerned about even eating uncooked pineapple and tomatoes due to the high serotonin. The levels of serotonin in a stressed animal would dwarf the ones in those fruits.
    I think testing the meat/milk/eggs for those stress mediators has never been done on a large scale (likely on purpose), and even when there are elevations we are told that these toxins are not bioavailable when eaten. But they are, as studies on this forum have shown. The other studies on the forum on parents passing down stress to their offspring also speak volumes. The eggs, calves, lambs, chickens hatched from eggs of stressed hens, etc will all bear the epigenetic marks of stress and imprint those on us.
    As the saying goes, you are what you eat. So, we do what we can to minimize the damage in an inperfect world.
  16. I would argue this not an example of intelligence, but of instinct. Penguins already migrate long distances each year for mating, as many birds do. This penguin developed a familial bond with the gentleman due to the extended period of time he was being cared for, thus his innate migration shifted to his new "home". This is actually observable in zoology, as birds caught in the wild and brought long distances into captivity, after remaining in captivity long enough to integrate the new place as a home, will not migrate back to the original home in the wild.

    This story, while interesting and sweet, does not demonstrate an intelligence previously unknown to penguins.
  18. I doubt the penguin has these thoughts about the fish he eats.

    Yes it's a lovely story.

    Yes humans need to eat meat. We didn't write the rules of biology.
  19. The example with birds is probably not the best one as it demonstrates domestication. This penguin went back into the wild and swims back to this man every year. You can argue that it is instinct, but we don't know if the penguin did not find another family among the penguins down at the tip of South America. For all we know, this penguin breeds every year and most likely has a "real" penguin family. Yet it still comes back, every year, to hang out with a creature it undoubtedly knows is NOT his kin. It does not look like him, does not smell like him, does not move like him, feed like him, his companions do not look like penguins, etc.
    Unless they GPS tag this penguin and it turns out he is a loner rejected by his penguin peers (and thus without penguin family) travelling solely because the man is his only family, then I would not jump to conclusions. Just think about it, if the penguin was indeed without family and the man is his only family why would it go back to Patagonia every year? Clearly something is drawing him to other penguins too. Just because something is likely/logical, does not mean it is the case. The evidence so far is that the penguin has found other penguins and hangs out with them for 7 months of the year and swims back to meet this man and spend 4 months with him.
    Now, find me a human that has ever done a similar feat for his/her (non-human) friend :):
  20. A couple thoughts on this.... first, animals do indeed eat other animals. Birds will eat worms or fish (the penguin in the story got fed sardines, for example), fish eat other sea creatures, and pigs are also omnivores. And as haidut has brought up on this forum before, plants as well may have conscious or intelligence as well-

    Plants Can Be Anesthetized, May Have Electronic Consciousness Like Humans
    Plants Recognize Their Own Relatives And Are Kind And Altruistic To Them

    Plants don't necessarily want to be eaten, either, and have developed a whole host of toxins to punish animals that do. Some plants are even carnivorous (the Venus Fly Trap and others will eat insects).

    On the flip side, when we pass, we will likely end up as food for some other creature. Maybe a gator, lion, or other huge predator, but most likely, as food for worms and bacteria or other microbial species.

    The only things that I see from nature that are purely intended to be food are milk and honey, although I think there are some arguments for fruit being in that category as well.
  21. I think eating eggs (if humanely sourced) does not hurt chickens either. It's just a pre-fetal formation, consisting of nutrients. But it does not amount to killing (probably).
  22. Just because animals do something, doesn't mean humans should do so. Animals kill each other and are violent for example, that doesn't mean humans should. I agree milk, honey and fruit seem to be foods designed to be eaten.
  23. I like the penguin story. :)

    For those who eat meat even occasionally, I think there is also an ethical case as well as the health benefits of collagen and organ meats for eating most of the animal , and not just the muscle meat.

    Whether vegan, vegetarian or omnivorous, having food grow in ways that sustain and enrich the environment and ecosystem rather than deplete it seem like a good way to go, and all three modes can be done more or less extractively or more sustainably. Growing large areas of monoculture plants kills a lot of animals.
  24. Oh, I absolutely agree. I brought it up because your first point was "If animals are indeed more like humans and are intelligent, then how ethical is it to consume animal flesh?"
  25. I can't help but see Dindim being fed live fish by Joao, and see the web of relationships and each species' role in it. There is a sense of order in one species enabling the survival of another. It matters less that one is eaten by another, as much as it contributes to establishing a balance. This balance includes the idea that lessening a prey's population ensures the maintenance of a population small enough to ensure robustness of that species. There is a sacrificial element as well, as one species serves its role to be fodder for another.

    In cleaning my pond filter, I make sure I don't discard the snails, but find it better to take the extra effort to save it and feed it to my koi, instead of just flushing it to the drain. When I leave my cup on the table after drinking fruit juice, ants would come and feed off the liquid left, and I let them be. They're doing their role, and the least I can do is to not get in the way. Before I get the cup washed, I shoo off whatever ants are left.

    Do they show gratitude? Yes they do. One day, up the attic, where there was a water leak going on for a year from rain slowly dripping into the marine plywood ceiling, when I lifted the fiberglass insulation, I saw ants feeding on termites. The ants were keeping the termites off my back, and my house!

    I'm not so sure yet, but it seems to me if I made the ants feel like this is their home, they would treat it as their home, and defend it. My termite exterminator retired due to being worn out by the chemicals he was being exposed to, and I haven't found anyone to replace him. I'm thinking I didn't need to.

    And one more thing- the red ants no longer bite me anymore.
  26. Vegan ethics hinges on the assumption that we unnecessarily eat other animals, given that we can eat plants and sustain ourselves.

    I believe we can sustain ourselves, but not have optimal health, and for many people’s cases, degeneration occurs without animal consumption.

    In the case of the individual who experiences degeneration without consumption of animal flesh, they have a primary obligation to the maintenance of their own health when considering what foods must be eaten. For this individual, there is no alternative, either kill and eat another animal, or suffer physical degeneration. The morality gets thrown out every time in starvation scenarios, I think it’s fitting to extend similar dispossession of morals in the context of maintaining good health. It happens to be an unfortunate natural consequence, but it is seen all throughout nature, and we only second guess flesh consumption because of our success as top predator and the security from being prey for so long.

    I’ll refrain from generalizing to humans at large, but as far as im concerned, and after extensive experimentation with different dietary protocols, I experience physical degeneration without the consumption of other animals, and so I do not feel bad at all for the animals I consume. I pay my respects, and would like to see a system where we can minimize their suffering, but I have no moral hang ups about their eventual death by our hands.
  27. You are a good man, Mr. Giorgy...
  28. That has been my experiene too. My health was in a bad place when trying veganism years ago. No doubt animal products are great for health. I still think meat is not neccesary in a Peat diet. You could be healthy eating cheese, milk, eggs, fruits and other carbs. Meat is way to high in phosphate, iron and inflammatory amino acids. There is no nutritional reason to eat meat if you can eat dairy or eggs.
  29. I was vegetarian for a few years. Thought Iif I didn't need to eat animals to be healthy, I could abstain. I idn't manage to be healthy that way, probably because I was trying to eat too much cheese etc, and it didn't agree with me personally. I think some people can do fine without meat, but I don't know if everyone can - or that everyone has access to the resources to get a good enough vegetarian diet to sustain themselves well.
  30. Milk actually has quite high amounts of tryptophan, cysteine, and methionine. The Glycine to Methionine ratio in beef is far superior to milk, cheese or eggs- most cuts are 2:1 or 3:1 (including New York, Ribeye, Chuck, and ground beef). Milk is 1:1, I think eggs are close to that, and cheese is 1:2, although cheese is much lower in tryptophan and cysteine. Here, see for yourself, just scroll down to protein and load "More Details" Beef, rib, eye, small end (ribs 10-12), separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, choice, cooked, broiled [ribeye] Nutrition Facts & Calories

    Everytime I look at the AA breakdown for any cut of beef, it always looks excellent.
  31. I agree the amino acid profile of beef is better as milk. But the high iron and phosphate slow your metabolism when eaten in large amounts. Milk actually boosts your metabolism because of the high calcium. I supplement with BCAA anyway to counter tryptophan and methionine.
  32. Do you have those studies?
  33. I also tried going vegan a few years ago, but didn't like either. What about creatine though? I read that the only good source was animal flesh.


    "Creatine is most abundant in red meat, pork, poultry, and fish. There is much less in dairy, eggs, and shellfish. Creatine is mostly in muscle meat; organ meats such as liver, heart, and kidney have very little."

    Also, according to food databases, milk has far more phosphorus than muscle meats for the amount of protein that it contains. The ratio of phosphorus to calcium isn't good, so a calcium supplement is probably needed to keep a good proportion.

    Regarding the iron, it may be a problem. @tankasnowgod has emphasized the role of iron fortication in diseases in other threads. I wonder what to make of it when it comes to red meat. If one eats a lot of it everyday, their iron comsumption is going to be higher. If this iron gets absorbed, it can cause problems( liver problems, insulin resistance, lipofuscin etc.). If it isn't absorbed( by using caffeine or calcium with the iron-containing meal), won't it stimulate bacterial growth in the intestines?
  34. The only food purposefully intended for consumption by others is fruit.

    After that comes milk and honey (intended for consumption by offspring, but can be harvested without harm to offspring theoretically).

    And after that eggs (any consumption of eggs hijacks the hen's reproductive potential completely).
  35. The thing is that the animals that are raised this way have one purpose, to be food for all the masses. Human gave them life, food and space to live without obstacles for obtaining it. The question about if its healthy or moral is another thing. I am writting this because even Hans Selye wrote that human is species that do things which should improve or make bigger chance of survival for next times. Its just a way how to have food everyday without much effort but its price is that its not healthy as wild animals. Its same like with people. My parents were born during communist era and I think I can compare them to animals raised on farm, their regime is about work, food, sleep and repeat. That is all.
  36. Zeus, what very few people know is that Africa and South Africa are not countries, but continents. You might actually be calculating the distance between Luanda in Angola and Angra dos Reis in Brazil. But this alone would require me to swim perhaps more than the penguin. And then we have to consider how much I'll have to walk to get to the coast.

    Straight line is for the penguin.
    The curve is my path.​

    That's a pretty tough walk and swim. And also, how am I supposed to pass through the Congo without knowing french?
    Guru, I don't know if I understooded your post right, but if you's implying that humans gave those animals their lives therefore it's less of an issue to eat them, with this idea your parents gave you life, they can do whatever they want with it as long as there's no abuse. So if you were raised to be a conditioned worker similar to them, you also can't expect to be something else or responsibilize them; just like the animals that were born and raised for a purpose.
  37. 1)Is it possible to sustain all of humanity on grass-fed, open-air, happy until premature death livestock?

    If yes, then strive for it

    If no, then is it the fault of any one member of society who was born into the system, who has to propagate it simply because they are making the healthiest choice for their body? What about the very poor, who can not afford the more expensive less cruel meats, but have to take what they can get, who need the vitality and energy that flesh provides so that they can drive to overcome their situation? Are they at fault for propagating the system?

    After all, we didn’t ask to be placed into the world we live in, perhaps participation in modern factory farming may have to be a necessary evil. If the world can’t be sustained with happy, grass fed, open-air livestock, then the only other options I see are lab grown meat or factory farming, perhaps with measures taken in place to ensure the animals receive better food, living conditions, air, light, etc...
  38. No, I think that farmers gave them life, food, water, medications and some space which is secured against predators in exchange for their meat. So the animals dont need to find food, care about predators etc...I didnt wrote that it is not an issue, I think that its not moral but is it wrong? I dont know. Would you be happy that you have intelligent cow but you are starving? Also, nature is full of killing but its part of the system so the system is functioning. For example, dairy products are main particle in the food list of europeans, do you know why? Because cows can eat grass and we could store dry grass so we can feed them whole year and drink their milk, we cant eat fruit whole year like africans do, the amount of fruit growing here is limited and seasonal, the environment for fruit to grow is hard to create when winter is here so people found other way. Cows and other species have mechanisms for defense or for getting their goals like getting food. The difference between cow and human is that I believe the weapon of human is brain, to be more precise ingenuity or intelligence but for me, intelligence is the ability to adapt to environment. So I believe that cows could change their destiny through using horns, legs or tongue to escape but will it be enough against intelligence of farmers that will do everything to keep them locked? And if somebody gave them freedom, will cows be able to live in this ennvironment without antibiotics or warm space after so much time spended on farm? Its same like with people, will people be able to live without all the medication and electronics? I think that we are near a point when the people will be so degenerated that we will be unable to live without pharmaceutical corporations. And about my situation with my parents, thanks to my curiosity and experience, I am trying to escape from the life of factory worker but my 2 brothers are living the same life like my parents. What I want to say is that when person dont know or never experienced other way of living, there is high chance that he will be living same like his environment. I think experience is big player here. I hope that I wrote it grammarly right because its big amount of text for me.
  39. Yeah, it depends on what people consider moral. Some religions are comforting in claiming that certain animals exist to feed man (?), removing any sense of guilt or consideration about it.

    Another thing that very little people do when they sit down to eat is lifting their plates to find out what's underneath: there are small farms, all you have to do is put a clean plate over them and the foods appear in sufficient amounts for the next meal.
  40. One thing we humans can at least potentially do better than animals is give the animals a painless fast death, carnivores in nature might start eating while the victim is still alive. Offcourse vegans vill argue that it's still bad because you take a life but there is a reason why the worst war crimes are seen as those where people have tortured their enemies before killing them. Sometimes also dying from "natural" causes can be way worse than being killed quickly, this could just be my depression speaking offcourse but.
  41. I forgot to wrote that I think ants are using aphids in the same way like we are using cows.
  42. I'm amused that you think that instinct and intelligence are not one in the same, lol.
  43. "There is no nutritional reason to eat meat if you can eat dairy or eggs"....and a little sardines...
  44. ....a little beef 100g, twice a week
  45. Yes that's probably harmless. But making beef a main protein source of your diet is not recommended due to iron and phosphate overload. Milk and cheese should be the main protein sources, unless you are taking eggshell calcium or other calcium supplement.
  46. Some people feel like crap on dairy, even when milk and hard cheeses ain't considered.
  47. Sluggish metabolism and/or poor quality dairy. Adding sugar/salt is effective.
  48. Iron is the only real concern I have with beef, but I started giving blood and plan to do so on a quarter-annual basis. Nothing like a good oil change to keep the physiological system nice and prime.

    Beef is awesome. Beef makes me feel very strong, satiated, digests well, gives me no bloat, and tastes good with just a little salt and hot sauce. I had some lean beef before bed and noticed that it just didn't taste right nor give me the strength I needed. This morning I had ground beef 80/20 and I felt much better eating it, more satiated, and more energized from its consumption. I will be experimenting with 73/27.

    I think I may have converted to the starch-free life. I won't permanently rule it out, but since paying much closer attention to my stomach, I'm noticing that starch just doesn't digest well and consistently drains my energy instead of gives, whereas non-starch foods don't. The past two days of eliminating starch and I've noticed my bloat going down, I am beginning to feel much more compact and dense.

    The only way a starch-free diet works for me is through high amounts of dairy or meat. Fruit and sugar create their own problems when overdone, same with dairy, so I'm left with meat. I've also been eating peanut butter with apples which have been positively received. I'm neutral right now on almonds, they taste alright, but are nothing I actively crave, and yesterday I had a slight sneezing fit after consuming them, so I'm not sold.
  49. Think like a gazelle and a cheetah

    The cheetah is burdened with having to kill first and ask questions later ... in order to survive ...

    but what if the cheetah used all its energy to catch up to the gazelle and ask an unsolicited question? That is what it is like to fight against entropy ...
  50. Amazing !
  51. How did we get off the penquin story?...anyway,
    what are your thoughts on skim milk vs whole milk?
  52. I use the one in between. So reduced fat percentage but not zero/skim.
  53. .
    Torturing animals to provide enormous amounts of animal protein for an ever growing population just seems crazy but the dollar always wins. Big money. Grocery unsold meat leftovers are actually processed for hair products I was told by a local store, yuk.
    Yes humans need nutrients not found as easily in plant foods and some are very sensitive to plant toxins, I'm not trying to get into any vegan argument and Im NOT a scientist.
    We are talking about emotions here, chemically affecting the quality of the animal food supply. I don't doubt cows pigs and chickens are capable of fear and bonding. And factory animals get no sun at all. They're confined in barns all day every day, they don't go outside. What does that do biologically?
    Do we need as much meat/ factory farming? Its big money its sad. Here near my home in rural areas some people only eat meat they have hunted themselves and that at least makes some sense. One kill lasts a long time.
    I agree with Haidut why couldnt stress toxins be passed into the food? Pastured farmed meat and eggs taste very differently than factory meat. We know what oxylates and other toxins from plants can do , but has anyone studied effect of stressors in animal tissues eaten by people? Hard to get financial funding to do it I guess.
    Lots of people in general don't feel good, whether they are ketoing or vegetarian, few are completely vegan, that's why most of us are here, trying to feel better, healthier
    It is worth getting meat/eggs and dairy from small farms, every state has a CSA. Some have volunteers who deliver. They dont necessarily mark the price way up. And you can always visit them and see how the animals are treated. And support people in this country who want to provide us with food more humanely. And hope they're being honest, not sneaking in hormones, saying they don't.
    I wonder if UCONN has studied it quietly, they have a school of nutrition and an agricultural school + a dairy.
  54. Ooops, I thought you lived in Brasil?
  55. +1
    After 30 years in Alaska eating clean meats, farmed meat is completely repugnant to every fiber of my being. The average dairy cow lives approx 4 years attached to a mechanized udder pump, standing in a foot of their own filth in a confined space, desperately slurping a gruel of GMO corn and
    water when not being herded into the rape cage or for innoculations. Hormonal surges must occur when the new mother cow watches her Male calf slaughtered in front of her. Drinking sweet velvety milk and cream from the bovine that chews her cud and processes green grass peacefully in her 4 stomachs on a hillside for 25 years is unknown to most.
  56. Halal meat is arguably the worst, even worse than CAFO meat, and people who care about ethical treatment of animals need to take note.

    I'll probably get a lot of flak for this, but I'm speaking truth. Islam is an absolutely barbaric religion. Their practice with halal meat is no exception. They purposefully torture animals, toy with them, gut them and finally slit their throats and let them flail around in panic as they slowly bleed out. Who knows what else they do to them. All the while they are LAUGHING and having a good time, torturing animals is a SPORT to these people. Honestly they are more animals than the actual animals. And people wonder why so many people (like myself) are strongly anti-Islam. These people aren't human.

    At least people who hunt animals for sport usually kill quickly and don't torture.

    Anyway, I've heard halal meat is starting to be sold in stores now. Probably to appease the growing Muslim population.

    I am sure there are a few people who follow Islam that may not understand the tenants of their own religion and are perfectly peaceful, but look no further than the barbaric cultures in the Middle east to see the true face of Islam and how they not only treat animals but also humans too.

    Sorry if that kinda gets off topic, but I could easily go on a big rant on that because it angers me and I tried my best not to lol.
  57. That last bit about the bovine male calf being slaughtered in front of her sounds a bit hyperbolic...

    Is it weird that I find conventional raised meats and dairy tastier than grass fed? The PUFAS have (un)saturated my taste buds!

    These threads always get derailed, and I am definitely guilty of instigating such behavior.
  58. Grain fed dairy does taste better sometimes or at least different in a way thats not worse. Like the grain affect content of milk beyond fat soluble vitamins being lower. Theres more to this riddle methinks.
  59. I can say with certainty that grain fed meat is very pro-inflammatory for me. Like, literally I will start to feel random aches and pains in the joints and sometimes muscles after.
  60. You may think that hyperbole if you want, but I was raised in Oklahoma beef country on grain fed beef and all its distasteful practices were not hidden until decades later. In summers we kids would go to Arkansas where great aunt and uncle raised 14,000 broiler hens which was yet another hands on experience I cannot un-see, un-smell, or un-know. Both industries were rife with chemicals and cruelty, nothing like the clean kill of a hunter's aim.