Even elephants become "thugs" when they grow up without a father figure

haidut

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I bet this study will never make the front-page of mainstream media outlets, simply because it is too inconvenient for both sides of the political spectrum. As it seems, there is no substitute for a father's love and guidance/discipline, no matter what the babbling psychos on TV would have us believe. One side has largely given up on those "thugs" and pushes drugs and "therapy" to control the outbursts of such incorrigible juveniles, while the other insists on brutal, militaristic "justice" for such juveniles so that they can be forced into a socially acceptable behavior. Neither side is doing much, or even proposing relevant solutions, in regards to restoring the cohesion and coherence of the fundamental unit of modern society - the family.

Teenage elephants need a father figure | BBC Earth
In the Absence of Fathers: A Story of Elephants and Men — Beyond These Stone Walls
Orphan elephants go on the rampage

"...LIKE children, young elephants need discipline if they are to grow up as responsible members of society. Wildlife biologists say that orphan bull elephants in South Africa’s Pilanesberg Game Reserve have turned delinquent because they have never been taken in hand by their elders. Rogue elephants have become a serious problem in Pilanesberg, a small wildlife reserve about 250 kilometres northwest of Johannesburg. Earlier this month, a young bull charged a group of tourists on a photo-safari. The next day the same elephant attacked and killed a professional hunter who had been sent to shoot it. These are not isolated incidents. Two years ago another tourist was attacked, chased out of his battered car, and trampled to death in the reserve. Humans are not the only victims: in the past three years, 19 white rhinoceroses have been gored to death by elephants in Pilanesberg. Park rangers have also seen bull elephants trying to mount rhino cows.

"...Scientists working for the Rhino and Elephant Foundation (REF), based in Johannesburg, have now completed a study of the problem, and think they can explain the elephants’ aberrant behaviour. Clive Walker, chairman of the foundation, says that in each incident the rogue animal was from a group of young male elephants brought into Pilanesberg from the Kruger National Park in the early 1980s—after the rest of their herd was culled as part of an effort to control Kruger’s burgeoning elephant population. “We believe the stress these animals have been subjected to along with the fact that they have never been subjected to the discipline and nurturing of a matriarchal cow, which is a central feature of normal elephant family life, accounts for their behaviour,” says Walker."
"...Marion Garaï, coordinator of the REF’s elephant research programmes, says that some of the orphan elephants attached themselves to a herd of rhinos after arriving in Pilanesberg. As they grew into young bulls, they tried mating with rhino cows. “Either through frustration or territorial aggression, the elephant bulls then turned on the rhino cows,” says Garaï. Garaï agrees that a lack of discipline from older animals helped turn the elephants into delinquents. “A contributing factor is the absence of older bull elephants, who are known to discipline aggressive young bulls during the mating season,” she says. The park’s small size may also have played a part, however. The Pilanesberg Game Reserve covers only about 35 000 hectares and is heavily stocked with large mammals. It is also visited by a great number of tourists because of its proximity to Johannesburg and a casino complex—which may place the animals under stress. “These could be additional factors that cause territorial aggression and unusual elephant-rhino interaction,” says Garaï."
 
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haidut

haidut

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Interesting as always Georgi. I gotta get you back on my podcast again. The episode we did together got tonnes of great feedback.

Glad to hear it!
We can probably do something early July. Send me an email and we will schedule it.
 
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"Seest thou the little winged fly, smaller than a grain of sand? It has a heart like thee; a brain open to heaven & hell...." William Blake

"Early last summer, I had noticed some blue jays that seemed to be acting defensive whenever I went into one part of the yard. On a very hot day at the end of summer, a couple of plump jays were squawking and apparently trying to get my attention while I was watering the front yard, and I idly wondered why they would be acting that way so late in the year. I had gone around the house to water things in the back yard, and the birds came over the house, and were still squawking, and trying to get my attention. I realized that their excitement didn't have anything to do with their nest, and looking more carefully, I saw that they were young birds. As it dawned on me that they were interested in the water squirting out of the hose, I aimed the stream up towards them, and they got as close to it as they could. Since the force of the stream might have hurt them, I put on a nozzle that made a finer spray, and the birds immediately came down to the lowest tip of the branch, where they could get the full force of the mist, holding out their wings, and leaning into the spray so that it ruffled their breast feathers. Their persistence had finally paid off when they got me to understand what they wanted, and they were enjoying the cool water. As new young birds, I don't know how they understood hoses and squirting water, but it was clear that they recognized me as a potentially intelligent being with whom they could communicate." Raymond Peat, PhD, Intuitive knowledge and its development, 2009.

I found this on Facebook just thought it was very sweet..... Ray describing his interaction with birds..
 

Makrosky

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I think one has to be careful of the pigmalion effect. If you permeate the culture with ideas that not having a father makes you a thug, it is going to create it.

We should also examine some of the most dangerous criminals in the 20 century, fron Polpot and Stalin to Bernie Maddoff and the Pfizer executives and see if they had a father figure or not?? Because those are the real criminals, not a thug that pick pockets tourists in the downtown of NY or Berlin.

Also, the cops that shoot all guns blazing to indefense supposed criminals when they are handcuffed. Do they have a father figure?

Does Bill Gates have a father figure? And Killary? And Bush? And so on so forth.

Judging by who are the worst criminals, I would rather say than having a father figure is really dangerous for humanity. See?
 
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Nomane Euger

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@Makrosky

hi, also calling these elephants "thug" may make readers perceive that these actions of the elephants were wrong, while potentially in some part of the events at least, the aggressiveness of these elephants had its relevance

also"discipline" is suboptimal for the well-being of the greatest number, because it implies that the individual who is governed by discipline may have tendencies to commit acts harmful to others, potentially beneficial to him, and the main factor that stops him is the consideration of the potential negative consequences that it would have for him to commit this act despite that one or more people had imposed this discipline on him,and that the moment the individual perceive that he can commit the harmfull act for others with a high enough net benefit/consequences result for him,he will commit it

the optimal is that the elephant is in an energetic state where it shows the least tendency to commit detrimental acts for the greatest number, and that the living beings that interact are in a similar state, and do not commit acts which causes the elephant to tend to a state where it manifests aggressive tendencies
 
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Makrosky

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@Makrosky

hi, also calling these elephants "thug" may make readers perceive that these actions of the elephants were wrong, while potentially in some part of the events at least, the aggressiveness of these elephants had its relevance

also"discipline" is suboptimal for the well-being of the greatest number, because it implies that the individual who is governed by discipline may have tendencies to commit acts harmful to others, potentially beneficial to him, and the main factor that stops him is the consideration of the potential negative consequences that it would have for him to commit this act despite that one or more people had imposed this discipline on him,and that the moment the individual perceive that he can commit the harmfull act for others with a high enough net benefit/consequences result for him,he will commit it

the optimal is that the elephant is in an energetic state where it shows the least tendency to commit detrimental acts for the greatest number, and that the living beings that interact are in a similar state, and do not commit acts which causes the elephant to tend to a state where it manifests aggressive tendencies
Absolutely. Well put.

I would even say discipline is potentially dangerous when it is done at mass scale. And I say potentially because there are very disciplined groups and countries that are totally peaceful.
 

Makrosky

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Surprising also that a fellow reader of Ivan Illich theories like haidut, now suggests discipline is any good. But I love it, always stimulating dialogues that force you to reexamine your own beliefs arise :)
 

Nomane Euger

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Absolutely. Well put.
Hi,i was gonna add to my message,
I would even say discipline is potentially dangerous when it is done at mass scale. And I say potentially because there are very disciplined groups and countries that are totally peaceful.
from my perspective,a high degree of Discipline is absolutly suboptimal on a mass scale,because it implies that some people enjoy a higher degree of energy than others, and that the former maintain themselves in this higher degree at the expense of others, without actively trying to allow the latter to reach the same degree ,from the perspective of the latter, if their degree of energy declines enough, and that an optimal cooperation is not possible, the tendency to be in competition can manifest and be relevant,

the discipline imposed by the former will be antagonistic to the latter,and potentially keep him in his suboptimal state where he manifest the competition tendency,it is potentially very relevant,yet he does not act as he is scared of the consequences,so he will have his access to resources controlled by the first

simple exemple,think about the hunters/gatherers "disciplined"by armed groups to not be allowed to hunt certains animals despit the former consider these animals to be optimal for their health/energy

or people being told you can not go out longer than 1 hour outside during the "covid pandemic"
 
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