Even A Slight Increase In Estrogen Strongly Decreases DHEA Levels

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
I posted a few studies in the past revealing that in old age (and menopause) the levels of pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA declines, while that of cortisol and aldosterone stays the same or even increases.
Pregnenolone, Progesterone And DHEA Drop, Cortisol Rises In Aging

The decline in those "youth" hormones, as Peat called them, is thought to be one of the main reason for the diseases and frailty associated with aging. However, mainstream medicine claims that the cause of decline in these steroids is unknown despite the evidence that lower thyroid function and higher adiposity are involved. Doctors continue to claim that menopausal women suffer from a deficiency of estrogen while at the same time openly admitting that all older people produce more estrogen than young ones due to the higher percentage of fat tissue. It's just that the estrogen in older people is produced intracrinally (in adipose and other tissue, primarily as estrone) and does not show up on the common blood tests. If doctors were to test levels of estrone sulfate (E1S) in blood they will quickly see that there is no estrogen deficiency in older people. Also, biopsies have been done on breast cancer patients (both breast and lymph node tissues) and the level of estrogen in those tissues is true the roof.
This new study shows that even a very small increase in estrogen in pre- and post-menopausal women elicits a dramatic decline in DHEA-S levels. So, the higher estrogen sytnhesis and lower thyroid activity are indeed a very likely explanation for the decreased levels of DHEA in older (and sick) people.
Hey @Such_Saturation, I think you posted something about insulin and DHEA, right? This may be of interest.


Circulating dehydroepiandrosterone-sulphate decreases even with a slight change in oestradiol. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Circulating DHEA-S level was significantly decreased at 3 months in all the four quartiles and divided according to Δoestradiol, and ΔDHEA-S did not show significant differences. In conclusion, circulating DHEA-S decreases even with a slight increase in oestradiol level. Impact statement What is already known on this subject: A transient increase in DHEA-S in women during the menopausal transition may be involved in the occurrence of menopausal symptoms and/or unfavourable metabolic changes. Hormone replacement therapy decreases circulating DHEA-S level. However, dose dependency of the change in DHEA-S on oestrogen has not been reported. What the results of this study add: Circulating DHEA-S decreases even with a slight increase in oestradiol level. What the implications are of these findings for clinical practice and/or further research: Adrenal function may respond to a small change in oestrogen."
 

dookie

Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
517
@haidut

Since fasting seems to cause a decrease in thyroid hormones, do you think that doing the opposite -- eating above appetite -- would it cause an increase in metabolism (thyroid), and a consequent decrease in estrogen, and increase in DHEA? I'm thinking of eating more sugar, protein, salt, calcium, and saturated fats - can it make a mildly hypothyroid case normal?
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
@haidut

Since fasting seems to cause a decrease in thyroid hormones, do you think that doing the opposite -- eating above appetite -- would it cause an increase in metabolism (thyroid), and a consequent decrease in estrogen, and increase in DHEA? I'm thinking of eating more sugar, protein, salt, calcium, and saturated fats - can it make a mildly hypothyroid case normal?

That's what the study on hypo and hyperthyroidism showed - higher metabolism resulted in higher DHEA levels and of other androgens and lower levels of estrogen. So, raising metabolism should help balance the steroid levels in favor of the anticatabolic ones.
Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism
 

dookie

Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
517
That's what the study on hypo and hyperthyroidism showed - higher metabolism resulted in higher DHEA levels and of other androgens and lower levels of estrogen. So, raising metabolism should help balance the steroid levels in favor of the anticatabolic ones.
Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism

But I am thinking specifically with regards to food intake. If you "force" yourself to eat more food, would it result in higher thyroid/metabolism?
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
But I am thinking specifically with regards to food intake. If you "force" yourself to eat more food, would it result in higher thyroid/metabolism?

In the few examples we have seen, yes. Even CNN wrote about that NLF player who overeats to keep metabolism high. Hey @dand , what was his name?
 

dookie

Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
517
In the few examples we have seen, yes. Even CNN wrote about that NLF player who overeats to keep metabolism high. Hey @dand , what was his name?

So over-eating could lower estrogen? Do you have any idea on what amount of calories to shoot for, what foods are best? I'm assuming it would be best to get most of the calories from carbohydrates?
 

paymanz

Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
2,686
That's what the study on hypo and hyperthyroidism showed - higher metabolism resulted in higher DHEA levels and of other androgens and lower levels of estrogen. So, raising metabolism should help balance the steroid levels in favor of the anticatabolic ones.
Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism
What about prolactin?

some hyperthyroid patients have gynos, what's your thoughts on that?
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
What about prolactin?

some hyperthyroid patients have gynos, what's your thoughts on that?

Too much progesterone would be my guess, but I need to see confirmation that they were hyper first. Typically, doctors will diagnose hyper just by looking at TSH levels and you could easily be still functionally hypo with very TSH if you take too much T4 for example (as it common practice in hypo treatment). So, in these people TSH is very low but rT3 is high and their temps/pulse are low.
 

dookie

Member
Joined
May 5, 2015
Messages
517
@haidut

The study you posted here: Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism
Shows that estrogen production is increased, and estrogen clearance is decreased, in hyperthyroidism. In fact, that exact article says that estradiol levels were found to be between 2.5 to 15 times greater in hyperthyroidism.

So how can you claim that:
That's what the study on hypo and hyperthyroidism showed - higher metabolism resulted in higher DHEA levels and of other androgens and lower levels of estrogen.
Too much progesterone would be my guess [about gyno from hyperthyroidism]
Isn't the issue clearly one of too much estrogen from hyperthyroidism?
Other members have experienced gyno using T3 too
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
@haidut

The study you posted here: Effects Of Thyroid Hormone On Steroid Metabolism
Shows that estrogen production is increased, and estrogen clearance is decreased, in hyperthyroidism. In fact, that exact article says that estradiol levels were found to be between 2.5 to 15 times greater in hyperthyroidism.

So how can you claim that:


Isn't the issue clearly one of too much estrogen from hyperthyroidism?
Other members have experienced gyno using T3 too

The study says that the increased levels of estrogen is from increased levels of androgens, which then aromatize into estrogen, and not from increased estrogen synthesis. And the increase in estrogen is only seen in men. Another study found no statistically significant increase in E2.
"...The increased plasma E2 in hyperthyroidism results in large part from increased peripheral conversion from the androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) (Figure 1)36 rather than from direct glandular secretion. The plasma levels of E2 in female hyperthyroidism tend to be within-the normal range31'35 (Table V)."
"...Ridgway, Longcope, and Maloof35 found only slight increases in plasma E2 levels in hyperthyroidism. The increases were not statistically significant (4.6 ng.% compared with a normal of 2.9 ng.%)."

And another study confirms that the increased estrogen is from increased androgen synthesis.
Conversion of Androgens to Estrogens in Hyperthyroidism * | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic

I guess I should have said that androgen synthesis is increased and estrogen synthesis is unchanged but the ratio of androgens to estrogens rises in hyperthyroidism.
Good catch, thanks for pointing it out.
 
Last edited:

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
I had high estrogen and high DHEA in my recent urine test , low testosterone too

Have you done blood tests? Urine tests are not really reliable as they show mostly how well liver and kidney function to excrete these steroids. You could have high excretion and low serum levels.
 

sunflower1

Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
74
No haven't done blood, Did one of those new Dutch tests. Also tested DHEA via saliva about 6 months ago and had the same result @haidut
 
Last edited:

dand

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
215
In the few examples we have seen, yes. Even CNN wrote about that NLF player who overeats to keep metabolism high. Hey @dand , what was his name?

Sorry, for some reason I’m not getting these alerts from you. It was Russell Wilson.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
Sorry, for some reason I’m not getting these alerts from you. It was Russell Wilson.

Great, thanks! Do you know if he is still on that high-calorie diet?
 

dand

Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2014
Messages
215
I’m sure he is. He seemed to be pretty committed to it. Guy is an incredible athlete to begin with.
 

chimdp

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
58
Too much progesterone would be my guess, but I need to see confirmation that they were hyper first. Typically, doctors will diagnose hyper just by looking at TSH levels and you could easily be still functionally hypo with very TSH if you take too much T4 for example (as it common practice in hypo treatment). So, in these people TSH is very low but rT3 is high and their temps/pulse are low.

@haidut Your last sentence very much describes me in the sense I believe rT3 is one of the main causes of my hypo symptoms (I have the majority of the hypo symptoms, except weight gain). With my rt3 number ranging from 14-19 ng/dL over 3 tests done in the last year. The rest of my thyroid numbers are "normal", but being in the mid to lower reference range. The problem is thyroid has not worked for me I've tried all of your products as well as a compounded time released t3. All of these gave stress reactions/actually feeling colder, lower energy, hair fall, etc. So for now I've back off of thyroid focusing on diet. In your experience what are the best diet/supplement tools to help combat rt3? I know t3 can be the best but for now that's not an option for me. I assume getting cortisol down will be big part of the suggestion, based on the below? I have Lapodin and CortiNon and will have 11keto DHT soon. Perhaps those three in combination, starting low on dosages? I'm a PFS sufferer so I'd like to include the DHT as part of the mix to see if that helps with mental side effects I've experienced over the past 2 years. Thanks in advance.

I also have the following cortisol/DHEA results from a test a few weeks ago:
upload_2018-1-7_15-41-46.png
upload_2018-1-7_15-43-48.png
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
17,429
Location
USA / Europe
@haidut Your last sentence very much describes me in the sense I believe rT3 is one of the main causes of my hypo symptoms (I have the majority of the hypo symptoms, except weight gain). With my rt3 number ranging from 14-19 ng/dL over 3 tests done in the last year. The rest of my thyroid numbers are "normal", but being in the mid to lower reference range. The problem is thyroid has not worked for me I've tried all of your products as well as a compounded time released t3. All of these gave stress reactions/actually feeling colder, lower energy, hair fall, etc. So for now I've back off of thyroid focusing on diet. In your experience what are the best diet/supplement tools to help combat rt3? I know t3 can be the best but for now that's not an option for me. I assume getting cortisol down will be big part of the suggestion, based on the below? I have Lapodin and CortiNon and will have 11keto DHT soon. Perhaps those three in combination, starting low on dosages? I'm a PFS sufferer so I'd like to include the DHT as part of the mix to see if that helps with mental side effects I've experienced over the past 2 years. Thanks in advance.

I also have the following cortisol/DHEA results from a test a few weeks ago:
View attachment 7886
View attachment 7887

If thyroid gives you a stress reaction, I would take it with niacinamide or something else that lower lipolysis. Thyroid can increase adrenaline sensitivity in hypo people, and elevated FFA prevent thyroid from getting into the cell and doing its work.
 

Genuine.2me

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
15
Last year I finally experienced joy. The day just seemed beautiful. I was 49 years old, and I suspect I’ve been hypo since I was 4.
I had managed to get hold of NDT, but it wasn’t until I found a way to get hold of DHEA that my sleep started to improve, and I got to experience this emotion.
It’s been about 14 months since I last had access to DHEA. It finally clicked that I could buy Pansterone, which I have now been taking for 4 days.
I am slowly piecing together the deficiencies caused by low thyroid and high estrogen. Thanks for adding this to my puzzle @haidut.
I posted a few studies in the past revealing that in old age (and menopause) the levels of pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA declines, while that of cortisol and aldosterone stays the same or even increases.
Pregnenolone, Progesterone And DHEA Drop, Cortisol Rises In Aging

The decline in those "youth" hormones, as Peat called them, is thought to be one of the main reason for the diseases and frailty associated with aging. However, mainstream medicine claims that the cause of decline in these steroids is unknown despite the evidence that lower thyroid function and higher adiposity are involved. Doctors continue to claim that menopausal women suffer from a deficiency of estrogen while at the same time openly admitting that all older people produce more estrogen than young ones due to the higher percentage of fat tissue. It's just that the estrogen in older people is produced intracrinally (in adipose and other tissue, primarily as estrone) and does not show up on the common blood tests. If doctors were to test levels of estrone sulfate (E1S) in blood they will quickly see that there is no estrogen deficiency in older people. Also, biopsies have been done on breast cancer patients (both breast and lymph node tissues) and the level of estrogen in those tissues is true the roof.
This new study shows that even a very small increase in estrogen in pre- and post-menopausal women elicits a dramatic decline in DHEA-S levels. So, the higher estrogen sytnhesis and lower thyroid activity are indeed a very likely explanation for the decreased levels of DHEA in older (and sick) people.
Hey @Such_Saturation, I think you posted something about insulin and DHEA, right? This may be of interest.


Circulating dehydroepiandrosterone-sulphate decreases even with a slight change in oestradiol. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Circulating DHEA-S level was significantly decreased at 3 months in all the four quartiles and divided according to Δoestradiol, and ΔDHEA-S did not show significant differences. In conclusion, circulating DHEA-S decreases even with a slight increase in oestradiol level. Impact statement What is already known on this subject: A transient increase in DHEA-S in women during the menopausal transition may be involved in the occurrence of menopausal symptoms and/or unfavourable metabolic changes. Hormone replacement therapy decreases circulating DHEA-S level. However, dose dependency of the change in DHEA-S on oestrogen has not been reported. What the results of this study add: Circulating DHEA-S decreases even with a slight increase in oestradiol level. What the implications are of these findings for clinical practice and/or further research: Adrenal function may respond to a small change in oestrogen."
Last year I finally experienced joy. The day just seemed beautiful. I was 49 years old, and I suspect I’ve been hypo since I was 4.
I had managed to get hold of NDT, but it wasn’t until I found a way to get hold of DHEA that my sleep started to improve, and I got to experience this emotion.
It’s been about 14 months since I last had access to DHEA. It finally clicked that I could buy Pansterone, which I have now been taking for 4 days.
I am slowly piecing together the deficiencies caused by low thyroid and high estrogen. Thanks for adding this to my puzzle @haidut.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
A Help Stretch Marks/slight Loose Skin (oral/topical Skin 5
Doludolu Feet Fingers Slight Redness, Itching, Joint Mild Pain - CAUSES? Symptoms, Causes 0
Gadreel How To Correct Slight Penile Curve/ Twisting Male Issues 29
S Slight Sunburn Even Behind Glass Skin 3
scarlettsmum Losing Weight Sensibly Vs. Eating Slight Surplus Diet 77
KnowledgeSeeker Slight Pain When Errect Sexuality 0
A Consuming Milk Increase Your Risk for Prostate Cancer? Milk 35
F How to increase blood clotting or estradiol (prothrombin factors)? Ask For Help or Advice 9
burtlancast Covid deaths increase by 525% following 20 days of vaccination in Gibraltar Ray Peat Topics 2
M Does magnesium glycinate increase dht? Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 8
T Adrenal fatigue: Best methods to increase cortisol naturally Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 18
N The "safest" drug to increase serotonin Mental Issues 19
S Increase natural phenylethylamine production? Mental Issues 2
N How do I increase my stress tolerance? Health 0
Frankdee20 Does dietary cholesterol intake increase it ? Cholesterol 8
ddjd ways to increase CYP11A activity other than K2MK4? Cholesterol→Pregnenolone Ask For Help or Advice 10
Lokzo Daily Intake Of Alfalfa Sprouts, But Not Broccoli Sprouts, Increase DHT Levels Scientific Studies 25
E SFAs Increase Postprandial Endotoxemia? Scientific Studies 2
Lokzo Eat Red Meat Without TMAO Increase? Metabolism 3
Lokzo Bromantane: Permanently Increase Motivation? (Nootropic, Effects, Benefits & Uses) Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 0
JanP Anything That Increase Thyroid Cause Rapid Tooth Decay Ask For Help or Advice 69
B Can Riboflavin Increase Cholesterol? Experiences With Riboflavin Please? Cholesterol 3
B Covid-19: What Caused Positive Tests To Increase So Much Recently? Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 74
GorillaHead What Would Cause Too Much Of An Increase In Intercellular Retinol? Skin 0
A Onions Increase The Amount Of Iron Absorbed From Grains Ask For Help or Advice 7
Highserotonin90 Melatonin Increase PDH Complex Supplements 38
S Does Vitamin C Increase Progesterone? Vitamins 12
Drareg COIVD19 Ventilators Cause Death Rate To Increase Significantly Articles & Scientific Studies 0
L Most Effective Way To Increase Glucose Oxidation Metabolism 10
orewashin Does Aspirin Increase Appetite? Aspirin 23
L How Do Cyproheptadine And Mirtazapine Induce Sleep And Increase Appetite? Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 7
C How Often And By What Amount Did You Increase Your NDT Dose By? Ask For Help or Advice 1
A What Does Coffe Increase Or Decrease In The Body? Ask For Help or Advice 10
Lokzo Oxytocin A Single Dose Leads To A Permanent Increase? (Positive Feedback) Scientific Studies 10
Hgreen56 Hot Foods Or Drinks Makes Me Tired, Hot Temperature Increase Serotonin? Diet 0
Vileplume Why Does Starch Increase My Resting Heart Rate So Much? Metabolism 18
haidut SSRI Drugs Increase Violent Behavior And Promote Recidivism Scientific Studies 0
L How To Solve Chronically Low BP (How To Increase Blood Pressure)? Heart, Heart Rate, Blood Pressure 25
zarrin77 High Potassium Helps To Increase Muscle Mass Compared To Low Potassium Diet In Mice Scientific Studies 7
JanP How To Increase Sodium And Water Retention? Ask For Help or Advice 2
zarrin77 Thiamine HCL May Increase Muscle Mass Scientific Studies 15
M Anti-Peat Dietary (organic) Iron Does Not Increase Tissue Iron Debate - Anti-Peat 40
berk Vitamin B6 And Zinc And Supplementation Increase Conversion Of Tryptophan Into Serotonin Scientific Studies 8
Jam An Increase In Serum C18 Unsaturated Free Fatty Acids As A Predictor Of The Development Of ARDS Articles & Scientific Studies 9
Hans Best Foods To Increase Dopamine Articles 25
Mito Serum Progesterone Levels Increase Linearly With Increased Dosage Progesterone 1
L How To Develop Mental Maturity (and Increase Salt Retention)? Mental Issues 1
Max. Drink White Grape.juice Can Increase Iron? Diet, Recipes 3
Hans 15 Foods To Increase DHT Articles 21
GutFeeling Does Weightlifting Causes Long Term Increase In Testosterone? Health 23

Similar threads

Top