Even 25min Of Running May Be Too Much

[Such_Saturation]

What physical symptoms did you notice? I've started jogging 2x/week (on top of Muay Thai and strength training) and I'd like to keep an eye out for any trouble.

Just the regular progression of miles and lowering of resting heart rate weren't there. It felt like every day was the first time, although admittedly I gave up that trial much earlier than other times I got "fit" successfully because the other times it gets a lot easier a lot sooner.

 

[tara]

Running and "aerobic" exercises are actually hyperventilating and exhausting CO2. Ray has pointed out in more than one place that this type of activity is actually anaerobic because the low CO2 causes tighter binding of O2 by hemoglobin (Bohr effect) and the lower available O2 inhibits oxidative respiration, forcing the mitochondria into anaerobic glycolysis.

Since reading about Buteyko (before reading Peat), I've set my occasional uphill walking pace at a level I can sustain with my mouth shut. I believe this significantly limits hyperventilation. Buteyko methods recommend always training with mouth closed.

Still knocks me back when I overdo it, though, I guess from the reduced T3 production and/or other down-regulations and depletions.

I think the Buteyko method also employs some guidelines about when some tactics are appropriate according to current CO2 levels, and an activities effects on measured CP. And you can judge yourself if the activity you engage in is having a favourable or unfavourable effect on CO2 levels. I seems to take into account that what activity levels are appropriate for a person is individual and variable

We are made to move, but that includes lots of activities that don't cause hyperventilating. In my opinion, walking outdoors is a better way to be active.

I agree we are made to move, and walking is one of my favourites, and there are lots of other cool ways that don't require hyperventilation.

I also liked the idea (but have not implemented) of the little I took in of Josh Rubin's approach to training: make sure to supply appropriate sugar and protein for recovery, and monitor temps and pulse to assess appropriate level of training for your current state.

 

[tara]

I think posts like this are dangerous. I think in general the board is full of overweight people who want to drink 10 cups of coffee a day and be told it's good for them, do no aerobic exercise, and drink orange juice.

Plus a fair few lean gym junkies, a few people trying to recover from long term overexercise, a significant proportion of anorexics (for whom at least for some part of recovery it can be dangerous to exercise much), a gaggle of adipophobes (if this isn't a word yet, I want it anyway ) and a number of us, myself included, who would love to be more physically active if our state of health allowed it.

I know many people say running and consistent exercise significantly improves their lives. I've seen friends change a lot through endurance exercise - they become more focused, more resilient, and have greater faith in their own strength and ability. I think dismissing it because of Cortisol is a bad idea.

We're designed to move.

I agree we are designed to move. I believe there are many people for whom some running is a positive thing. But not for everyone, and especially when thyroid function is already way too low.

 

[jyb]

I won't gainsay your friends experience, humans are incredibly resilient. But endurance athletes only increase the damage.

We are made to move, but that includes lots of activities that don't cause hyperventilating. In my opinion, walking outdoors is a better way to be active.

I can't do without walking outdoors, it seems essential to refresh my mind on a daily basis. In terms of exercise what seems optimal for me is fast walk and a short high intensity muscle workout. Swimming can be a substitute for one of the two.

 

[tara]

I credit some past periods of overexercise as a likely contributor to my health issues. Too much hiking with too heavy a pack and not enough food in the past.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

post 75145

It doesn't seem unlikely that a moderately athletic individual can run 3x a week for 25 minutes with no issues.

Yes because their metabolism downregulates. Try jogging and taking T3 every day, see how far you can get after a month.

The first time I ate coconut oil my resting pulse doubled. I spent time just laying on the sofa and it felt like exercise. Sports at that point would have been impossible.

 

[CoolTweetPete]

Yikes. Thanks, Haidut.

I did cross country running in high school, and I now know that is what wrecked my metabolism and my physical body with lots of ankle and knee injuries from terrible running form (which most people have and don't know)

 

[Runenight201]

Since reading about Buteyko (before reading Peat), I've set my occasional uphill walking pace at a level I can sustain with my mouth shut. I believe this significantly limits hyperventilation. Buteyko methods recommend always training with mouth closed.

I'd definitely like to re-emphasize this. Personally I believe that all the ill-effects of exercise can be avoided with proper acclimation to current fitness level and permanently avoiding mouth-breathing. With the avoidance of mouth-breathing, hyperventilation does not occur, which prevents the depletion of CO2 and the subsequent tighter binding of O2 to hemoglobin.

From an evolutionary perspective, if you couldn't or did not exercise, you would most likely die. There are even arguments that the sole reason why we have a central nervous system is for movement. I believe there are appropriate times to consider evolutionary arguments, although I do think sometimes some people become too dogmatic with them. If we were to consider most of evolutionary history and hunter-gatherer societies, they most likely walked the entire day searching for food, and hunters most likely spent a considerable amount of time engaging in "cardio" exercise, especially when you consider endurance hunting. Also pre-industrial revolution, the entire day for the majority of the population was spent in physical labor, which for all intents and purposes could be considered low intensity steady state cardio. I think the key between endurance cardio being detrimental and being extremely beneficial is avoidance of hyperventilation and proper acclimation to the rigor of exercise with current physical capabilities. This will avoid anaerobic conditions. If you combine this with Dr. Phil Maffetone's style of training of keeping your heart rate within aerobic thresholds, than I don't see how cardio exercise can be detrimental and only be extremely beneficial to an organism.

I'm not too sure if many people are familiar with the Buteyko method around here, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of the people who have gotten extremely healthy following that methodology also had high metabolisms. I think there's some conflict in resting pulse rate, in that Dr. Buteyko recommended a lower resting pulse which usually corresponded with higher CO2 levels in the body, decreased minute ventilation, and a healthier individual. It would be interesting to see if we could draw a connection between metabolism, oxygen utilization, and human health. This would be like merging Ray Peat's and Dr. Buteyko's work. In fact all of Ray Peat's opinion on CO2 is in complete accordance with Dr. Buteyko. With a high metabolism, high oxygen utilization, I wouldn't be surprised if you had virtual elimination of any chronic disease, inflammation, and very high energy levels.

 

[tara]

I think there's some conflict in resting pulse rate, in that Dr. Buteyko recommended a lower resting pulse which usually corresponded with higher CO2 levels in the body, decreased minute ventilation, and a healthier individual. It would be interesting to see if we could draw a connection between metabolism, oxygen utilization, and human health. This would be like merging Ray Peat's and Dr. Buteyko's work.

There's some discussion related to this in other threads, probably in here somewhere:
CO2, Bag Breathing
And some people who know of Buteyko.
Have you seen Peat's talk (youtube) to a Buteyko group about C02?

Personally I believe that all the ill-effects of exercise can be avoided with proper acclimation to current fitness level and permanently avoiding mouth-breathing. With the avoidance of mouth-breathing, hyperventilation does not occur, which prevents the depletion of CO2 and the subsequent tighter binding of O2 to hemoglobin.

I think probably nasal-breathing would make exercise much more beneficial in general, but I suspect there may still be situations where deliberate exercise is counterindicated for other reasons, such as during recovery from serious anorexia and related struggles (especially anorexia athletica), and there may be other reasons to limit duration etc.

 

[cyclops]

-

 

[Luckytype]

I skimmed through these, i didnt happen to notice anything regarding caloric intake or any sort of nutritional status beforehand.

I can say that many women I know eat very very little, maybe one good meal a day, possible snacking during the day. I doubt even approaching 15-1600 kcal per day.

I think its probably pretty obvious that taking sedentary undereaten women and throwing them into something with no rampup period will likely illicit a stress response. Im not super surpised.

I am big on protective light cardio, i think its super beneficial and very good for mito maintenance and gas maintenance in the body.

 

[Runenight201]

Tara thanks for the link. Going through all of these threads now to gather what other peatarian's opinions are on Dr. Buteyko's work. What I can't get past and why I'm slightly more biased towards Dr. Buteyko is the miraculous claims his methodology entails, including reducing sleep to only 4-5 hours and having high energy all throughout the day. This is obviously very attractive and makes me want to defend his methodology (and fervently practice it so I can also obtain it), however it's also important to seek truth over everything.

It seems like Peat views that cardio is too much of a stressor, and that's just something I'm very skeptical of. I do agree that given certain conditions, cardio would be contraindicated, but for most "normal" human beings (the majority of us just trying to improve our health and perhaps reach vibrant, strong energy levels), I think properly done cardio is only beneficial.

.

Also I believe this is the talk you mentioned. I will listen to it during my morning bike ride tomorrow =P

Luckytype, I see that your obsession with aesthetics seems to have compromised your health, is it too much asking what exactly happened?

 

[michael94]

I skimmed through these, i didnt happen to notice anything regarding caloric intake or any sort of nutritional status beforehand.

I can say that many women I know eat very very little, maybe one good meal a day, possible snacking during the day. I doubt even approaching 15-1600 kcal per day.

I think its probably pretty obvious that taking sedentary undereaten women and throwing them into something with no rampup period will likely illicit a stress response. Im not super surpised.

I am big on protective light cardio, i think its super beneficial and very good for mito maintenance and gas maintenance in the body.

yea...that is the problem with the mundane approach... you can find problems with anything. Temporary kidney failure can be good in a way that is not well understood.

 

[Luckytype]

Tara thanks for the link. Going through all of these threads now to gather what other peatarian's opinions are on Dr. Buteyko's work. What I can't get past and why I'm slightly more biased towards Dr. Buteyko is the miraculous claims his methodology entails, including reducing sleep to only 4-5 hours and having high energy all throughout the day. This is obviously very attractive and makes me want to defend his methodology (and fervently practice it so I can also obtain it), however it's also important to seek truth over everything.

It seems like Peat views that cardio is too much of a stressor, and that's just something I'm very skeptical of. I do agree that given certain conditions, cardio would be contraindicated, but for most "normal" human beings (the majority of us just trying to improve our health and perhaps reach vibrant, strong energy levels), I think properly done cardio is only beneficial.

.

Also I believe this is the talk you mentioned. I will listen to it during my morning bike ride tomorrow =P

Luckytype, I see that your obsession with aesthetics seems to have compromised your health, is it too much asking what exactly happened?

Sure no problem @Runenight201 hopefully it helps people here. Obsession no - I fell in love with the challenges of being crushed by heavy stuff.

I used to love bodybuilding as a kid and in college. I was a skinny long limbed kid and the progress daily was such a neat thing. Mind drives body. Anyway I fell away from it while finishing my MS just because no time in a day sorta thing. I was missing sleep every other night working while in school, life sucked, caffiene up the yingyang etc..general self neglect. I just went harder and harder, "whatever, just dont stop".

After graduate school was done and getting into the world of business marketing I ended with sore shoulder joints, back and SI joints, sore knees etc. I wasnt carrying much muscle but the active muscle really was imbalanced(my natural imbalances and tightnesses). So once I had time added weight training back in, fixed the issues and it allowed me to work longer and harder at work(ding ding - 1st postive reinforcement).

So i am naturally pretty lean, vascular, its easy to diet down and thus gaining weight is super difficult so at this point im living for calories, not even nutrition but I could add muscle slowly and no negative things at this point came from this anti nutrition. Still crappy no sleep, super caffiene, minute to minute, penny to penny misery(ding ding 2nd positive reinforcement). This goes on for a few years. There were times i was so stressed id literally pop myself awake with anxiety, nauseating kind.

Finally i said enough, changed industries and eliminated alot of stress. At this time i was i. The gym because i loved it for like 3-4 hours a day, insane volume, just beating the piss out of myself. Oddly i was doing some competitive eating too, why not it was free calories. Eventually sleeping a little better, though it was groggy sleep. But i was happy, "healthy", finally destressed by 85 percent, i had good people around me.

I can finally breathe..it didnt last long as the damage was done from years of just survival neglect.


One spring i had eliminated the shitty food to start a quick cut into summer. Two times i had such horrible indigestion i thought it was food poisoning. I tried to vomit it up and once i got it up, i felt better. This was the most intense stomach issue of my adult life. Before this, ive had a cast iron stomach, never ever once bad any issues. It happened twice. Two months later my hair is clogging the drain, im irritable as hell, eventually fall comes and im exhausted during workouts. There were days i literally couldnt get out of bed, like a train had hit me. I add calories back in with no change. And thats when i made my first doc appointment. I knew something was really screwed up but at the time my skin was clear and tan, i still looked healthy and was lean and muscular. I explain the full 10 year rundown to the first doc, hes convinced i couldnt come close to the amount of stress to cause something refuses to test things and that was the last time i saw him.

Shortly after this i repaired my hairline with my own scalp manipulations but still hormonally shedding. Eventually realizing how bad some veggies can be eliminated them.

I found some of the deeper peat ideas by chance. Im months into my life repair at this point. Slowwwwly improving, still things missing.

Second and third docs were the same, 4th i took it into my own hands, stretched the truth and got my answer that i was suspecting the whole time.

Long winded and way more to it but thats it in a nutshell. I was so horribly neglectful(even with good intentions at some times)to my one body that im surprised this didnt happen sooner

 

[thms]

Sure no problem @Runenight201 hopefully it helps people here. Obsession no - I fell in love with the challenges of being crushed by heavy stuff.

I used to love bodybuilding as a kid and in college. I was a skinny long limbed kid and the progress daily was such a neat thing. Mind drives body. Anyway I fell away from it while finishing my MS just because no time in a day sorta thing. I was missing sleep every other night working while in school, life sucked, caffiene up the yingyang etc..general self neglect. I just went harder and harder, "whatever, just dont stop".

After graduate school was done and getting into the world of business marketing I ended with sore shoulder joints, back and SI joints, sore knees etc. I wasnt carrying much muscle but the active muscle really was imbalanced(my natural imbalances and tightnesses). So once I had time added weight training back in, fixed the issues and it allowed me to work longer and harder at work(ding ding - 1st postive reinforcement).

So i am naturally pretty lean, vascular, its easy to diet down and thus gaining weight is super difficult so at this point im living for calories, not even nutrition but I could add muscle slowly and no negative things at this point came from this anti nutrition. Still crappy no sleep, super caffiene, minute to minute, penny to penny misery(ding ding 2nd positive reinforcement). This goes on for a few years. There were times i was so stressed id literally pop myself awake with anxiety, nauseating kind.

Finally i said enough, changed industries and eliminated alot of stress. At this time i was i. The gym because i loved it for like 3-4 hours a day, insane volume, just beating the piss out of myself. Oddly i was doing some competitive eating too, why not it was free calories. Eventually sleeping a little better, though it was groggy sleep. But i was happy, "healthy", finally destressed by 85 percent, i had good people around me.

I can finally breathe..it didnt last long as the damage was done from years of just survival neglect.


One spring i had eliminated the shitty food to start a quick cut into summer. Two times i had such horrible indigestion i thought it was food poisoning. I tried to vomit it up and once i got it up, i felt better. This was the most intense stomach issue of my adult life. Before this, ive had a cast iron stomach, never ever once bad any issues. It happened twice. Two months later my hair is clogging the drain, im irritable as hell, eventually fall comes and im exhausted during workouts. There were days i literally couldnt get out of bed, like a train had hit me. I add calories back in with no change. And thats when i made my first doc appointment. I knew something was really screwed up but at the time my skin was clear and tan, i still looked healthy and was lean and muscular. I explain the full 10 year rundown to the first doc, hes convinced i couldnt come close to the amount of stress to cause something refuses to test things and that was the last time i saw him.

Shortly after this i repaired my hairline with my own scalp manipulations but still hormonally shedding. Eventually realizing how bad some veggies can be eliminated them.

I found some of the deeper peat ideas by chance. Im months into my life repair at this point. Slowwwwly improving, still things missing.

Second and third docs were the same, 4th i took it into my own hands, stretched the truth and got my answer that i was suspecting the whole time.

Long winded and way more to it but thats it in a nutshell. I was so horribly neglectful(even with good intentions at some times)to my one body that im surprised this didnt happen sooner

how much days did you train at the time?

did you cutback allready? how are things working out physique wise while on lower volume / another diet?

 

[Luckytype]

how much days did you train at the time?

did you cutback allready? how are things working out physique wise while on lower volume / another diet?

I was at like 5-6 days a week. I was doing retarded volume - like 25-30 sets for big groups, tons for delts, minimal arm work. I literally couldnt wait to train. I truly loved it. I hardly ever missed workouts.

Ive cut back a few times and currently just taking off a few months.

Since being on the road back to health, ive taken breaks here and there and even after 6mos break my lifts returned to normal after only 10-12 weeks so im fine with the time off.

Physique wise is fine, ive added in more food, softened a bit for winter to hold more heat and generally just tried to relax and walk. Im trying to really get my stressors low, and keep my andros high and bring my thyroid back. Its nice not having to get all torqued up for the top sets of the workouts.

For me though im super carb tolerant so i think it feels normal for my body, i loved carb and used to enjoy a ton of them.

 

[Luckytype]

Oh and i should note, the gains that returned, returned at like 20-25 percent of the volume of sets. Intensity/quality contraction control over everything for sure, and keep in mind diminishing returns for anything high volume unless youre on gear

 

[thms]

Oh and i should note, the gains that returned, returned at like 20-25 percent of the volume of sets. Intensity/quality contraction control over everything for sure, and keep in mind diminishing returns for anything high volume unless youre on gear

what do you mean with diminishin returs for high volume?

ive trained just like you every day with high volume and only recently switched to low(er) volume training for 3 days a week.

didnt lose an ounce of muscle but gained some fat (np for me)

what do you reccomend training wise? A mentzer like aproach /doggcrap or something else?

is your physique in the picture natural? have you ever competed?

i think your phisique looks great but i know what it takes / the risks are.

thanks

 

[Hugh Johnson]

drink 10 cups of coffee a day... do no aerobic exercise, and drink orange juice.

I fully support these actions.

 

[Runenight201]

Sure no problem @Runenight201 hopefully it helps people here. Obsession no - I fell in love with the challenges of being crushed by heavy stuff.

I used to love bodybuilding as a kid and in college. I was a skinny long limbed kid and the progress daily was such a neat thing. Mind drives body. Anyway I fell away from it while finishing my MS just because no time in a day sorta thing. I was missing sleep every other night working while in school, life sucked, caffiene up the yingyang etc..general self neglect. I just went harder and harder, "whatever, just dont stop".

After graduate school was done and getting into the world of business marketing I ended with sore shoulder joints, back and SI joints, sore knees etc. I wasnt carrying much muscle but the active muscle really was imbalanced(my natural imbalances and tightnesses). So once I had time added weight training back in, fixed the issues and it allowed me to work longer and harder at work(ding ding - 1st postive reinforcement).

So i am naturally pretty lean, vascular, its easy to diet down and thus gaining weight is super difficult so at this point im living for calories, not even nutrition but I could add muscle slowly and no negative things at this point came from this anti nutrition. Still crappy no sleep, super caffiene, minute to minute, penny to penny misery(ding ding 2nd positive reinforcement). This goes on for a few years. There were times i was so stressed id literally pop myself awake with anxiety, nauseating kind.

Finally i said enough, changed industries and eliminated alot of stress. At this time i was i. The gym because i loved it for like 3-4 hours a day, insane volume, just beating the piss out of myself. Oddly i was doing some competitive eating too, why not it was free calories. Eventually sleeping a little better, though it was groggy sleep. But i was happy, "healthy", finally destressed by 85 percent, i had good people around me.

I can finally breathe..it didnt last long as the damage was done from years of just survival neglect.


One spring i had eliminated the shitty food to start a quick cut into summer. Two times i had such horrible indigestion i thought it was food poisoning. I tried to vomit it up and once i got it up, i felt better. This was the most intense stomach issue of my adult life. Before this, ive had a cast iron stomach, never ever once bad any issues. It happened twice. Two months later my hair is clogging the drain, im irritable as hell, eventually fall comes and im exhausted during workouts. There were days i literally couldnt get out of bed, like a train had hit me. I add calories back in with no change. And thats when i made my first doc appointment. I knew something was really screwed up but at the time my skin was clear and tan, i still looked healthy and was lean and muscular. I explain the full 10 year rundown to the first doc, hes convinced i couldnt come close to the amount of stress to cause something refuses to test things and that was the last time i saw him.

Shortly after this i repaired my hairline with my own scalp manipulations but still hormonally shedding. Eventually realizing how bad some veggies can be eliminated them.

I found some of the deeper peat ideas by chance. Im months into my life repair at this point. Slowwwwly improving, still things missing.

Second and third docs were the same, 4th i took it into my own hands, stretched the truth and got my answer that i was suspecting the whole time.

Long winded and way more to it but thats it in a nutshell. I was so horribly neglectful(even with good intentions at some times)to my one body that im surprised this didnt happen sooner

That hitting the bottom of the health well I think is where a lot of people end up at Peat's and other types of nutrition/hormonal researchers. 3-4 hours at the gym is definitely a lot of stress on the body and it seems like you finally reached your threshold and your body went spiraling down. Good luck with recovery and I hope you eventually fix your sleep and energy levels. I can relate to the hair shedding, as it's something that I've experienced for the past year and a half, on top of anxiety of my hairline's status. Of course, when I objectively look at my hairline it's completely fine (a norwood 1), that and skin problems, along with sleep and energy levels during the day are my main "analytic" tools for viewing my health status.

Interesting about your carb intolerance. How did you come to that conclusion? Do you think you were always carb intolerant or that your status changed when your health started declining? Also Peat talks about how sugar minimizes the stress hormones, so have you considered that?

What did you do in terms of scalp manipulations? Minox/Nizoral? I figured if I ever get bad enough I would just resort there. Hoping to completely fix shedding and my other myriad of health issues with gelatin, lower on the meat side of things (methionine/cysteine/tryptophan minimization), PUFA minimization (although I'm still going to eat eggs and half an avocado e/d), and ingestion of Vitamin E, D, and K (supplement) and vitamin A from food, on top of plenty of aerobic endurance cardio with zero mouth breathing and heart rate under 163 (my lactate threshold).

Today I plan on starting a 3 hour a day cardio regimen, mixing up biking, rowing, and "creative" dancing/kickboxing/bodyweight exercises (cant run quite yet with a nagging shin splint). Should be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm keeping track of my sleep, energy levels, heart rate, temps, and morning control pause. I'm trying to hit caveman hunter levels of fitness, without the burnout (fingers crossed). I have a theory that aerobic exercise with strict nasal breathing is the best medicine anyone can do, so Ima test it on myself and see where it takes me. I've come to this conclusion through a combination of Buteyko and Dr. Phil Maffetone's work. Although Maffetone seems to emphasize the aerobic engine for optimizing fat utilization, where as Peat seems to emphasize glucose oxidation. I have to do more research to see how those two interplay, but I do believe that having a well developed aerobic engine is key to vibrant health, recovery, sleep, and energy. I know that Maffetone likes low carb diets, but honestly I don't know how anyone does them. I've tried multiple times and end up feeling like ***t. When I'm eating carbs I feel much, much better.