Even 25min Of Running May Be Too Much

Luckytype

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That hitting the bottom of the health well I think is where a lot of people end up at Peat's and other types of nutrition/hormonal researchers. 3-4 hours at the gym is definitely a lot of stress on the body and it seems like you finally reached your threshold and your body went spiraling down. Good luck with recovery and I hope you eventually fix your sleep and energy levels. I can relate to the hair shedding, as it's something that I've experienced for the past year and a half, on top of anxiety of my hairline's status. Of course, when I objectively look at my hairline it's completely fine (a norwood 1), that and skin problems, along with sleep and energy levels during the day are my main "analytic" tools for viewing my health status.

For me, I wake groggy often, eyes kinda burny sometimes(using cypro .5-1mg now) but my temps are so random. All over the place with no pattern. Thats the most frustrating thing for me.

Interesting about your carb intolerance. How did you come to that conclusion? Do you think you were always carb intolerant or that your status changed when your health started declining? Also Peat talks about how sugar minimizes the stress hormones, so have you considered that?

I just couldnt ever put on muscle if my fat wasnt high and my carbs werent high. It was somewhat instinctive, I obviously always neglected the hormonal consideration part. And then for me, I knew that all carbs eventually HAVE to be reduced to sugars to be used so I shorted the step and just added fats as a time release thing. Ive been pretty instinctive when I think of food, despite not following my intuitions on it.

What did you do in terms of scalp manipulations? Minox/Nizoral? I figured if I ever get bad enough I would just resort there. Hoping to completely fix shedding and my other myriad of health issues with gelatin, lower on the meat side of things (methionine/cysteine/tryptophan minimization), PUFA minimization (although I'm still going to eat eggs and half an avocado e/d), and ingestion of Vitamin E, D, and K (supplement) and vitamin A from food, on top of plenty of aerobic endurance cardio with zero mouth breathing and heart rate under 163 (my lactate threshold).

I have used nizoral just as a dandruff thing here and there, long before the shed started. Mine was actually the physical manipulation of my scalp. Im sure its somewhere in my recents posts. Ive noticed a pretty good difference at 1-2mg Vitamin K a day, though it very well could not specifically attributed to that. My skin is healthier, my scalp softer. I think omega6s too should be avoided. I think closely trying to replicate evolutionary human nature is probably wise with regard to diet.

Today I plan on starting a 3 hour a day cardio regimen, mixing up biking, rowing, and "creative" dancing/kickboxing/bodyweight exercises (cant run quite yet with a nagging shin splint). Should be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm keeping track of my sleep, energy levels, heart rate, temps, and morning control pause. I'm trying to hit caveman hunter levels of fitness, without the burnout (fingers crossed). I have a theory that aerobic exercise with strict nasal breathing is the best medicine anyone can do, so Ima test it on myself and see where it takes me. I've come to this conclusion through a combination of Buteyko and Dr. Phil Maffetone's work. Although Maffetone seems to emphasize the aerobic engine for optimizing fat utilization, where as Peat seems to emphasize glucose oxidation. I have to do more research to see how those two interplay, but I do believe that having a well developed aerobic engine is key to vibrant health, recovery, sleep, and energy. I know that Maffetone likes low carb diets, but honestly I don't know how anyone does them. I've tried multiple times and end up feeling like ***t. When I'm eating carbs I feel much, much better.

Without a doubt, I only started shedding when my super easy aerobic walking was eliminated. I have no doubt it was protective to some degree. Once it left, thats when the cascade kinda started. I think your idea is good, but i would suggest a longer ramp up period compared to what you think you need. I was telling a forum member, "business as usual" in regard to making changes in the body.
 

Luckytype

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what do you mean with diminishin returs for high volume?

ive trained just like you every day with high volume and only recently switched to low(er) volume training for 3 days a week.

didnt lose an ounce of muscle but gained some fat (np for me)

what do you reccomend training wise? A mentzer like aproach /doggcrap or something else?

is your physique in the picture natural? have you ever competed?

i think your phisique looks great but i know what it takes / the risks are.

thanks

I think its wise - provided the stimulus at the time is of great enough magnitude, it should be enough to illicit growth.


Ive done a ton of different approaches. I initially started(before life took over) doing the HD approach by mentzer, I even have his "heavy duty" tank top. Dude had perfect proportions. The one thing I didn like about it was I need ALOT of warmup in acclimation to heavy sets. For example, if im incline DB pressing the 120s at my gym(the heaviest they have currently), I absolutely need warmups at 50s, 75, 90, 100 before even thinking about it - and I press LATE in the workout, like after like 2-3 other flying or easy angle pressing like a decline to get warm. I would absolutely get injured with less warmup OR with no other movements before. Plus for me personally, instead of taking 1-2 sets past momentary failure, I would always benefit more from a 15sec rest-pause, especially on pressing stuff. I feel like once the ancillary muscles fatigue, even with a perfect spotter you risk some pretty nasty tweaks.

I love high volume too, obviously I think at the expensive of health. The way I trained I probably shouldve been on gear but I never knew better until now. I think its easier on the joints, harder on the hormones and muscle bellies. By diminishing returns with stupid volume, I mean I could probably have stimulated good growth for a workout by 2ish good working sets, but i liked it so I would add another set or 2 or like a big back-off scheme or something. I think the rate of return of progress lessens with higher volume but at the expense of recovery. Arbitrary but what is 2-3 percent difference in stimulation for a 10 percent increased need to recover. That kind of thing.

Yea im natural, the pic is a december "bulk" photo. I appreciate the compliment, it took a ton of hammering to bring my delts up to proportion to everything else. its gonna be weird if I have to try NDT or a mix of thyroid to not be "natty" anymore.
 

Runenight201

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That hitting the bottom of the health well I think is where a lot of people end up at Peat's and other types of nutrition/hormonal researchers. 3-4 hours at the gym is definitely a lot of stress on the body and it seems like you finally reached your threshold and your body went spiraling down. Good luck with recovery and I hope you eventually fix your sleep and energy levels. I can relate to the hair shedding, as it's something that I've experienced for the past year and a half, on top of anxiety of my hairline's status. Of course, when I objectively look at my hairline it's completely fine (a norwood 1), that and skin problems, along with sleep and energy levels during the day are my main "analytic" tools for viewing my health status.

For me, I wake groggy often, eyes kinda burny sometimes(using cypro .5-1mg now) but my temps are so random. All over the place with no pattern. Thats the most frustrating thing for me.

Interesting about your carb intolerance. How did you come to that conclusion? Do you think you were always carb intolerant or that your status changed when your health started declining? Also Peat talks about how sugar minimizes the stress hormones, so have you considered that?

I just couldnt ever put on muscle if my fat wasnt high and my carbs werent high. It was somewhat instinctive, I obviously always neglected the hormonal consideration part. And then for me, I knew that all carbs eventually HAVE to be reduced to sugars to be used so I shorted the step and just added fats as a time release thing. Ive been pretty instinctive when I think of food, despite not following my intuitions on it.

What did you do in terms of scalp manipulations? Minox/Nizoral? I figured if I ever get bad enough I would just resort there. Hoping to completely fix shedding and my other myriad of health issues with gelatin, lower on the meat side of things (methionine/cysteine/tryptophan minimization), PUFA minimization (although I'm still going to eat eggs and half an avocado e/d), and ingestion of Vitamin E, D, and K (supplement) and vitamin A from food, on top of plenty of aerobic endurance cardio with zero mouth breathing and heart rate under 163 (my lactate threshold).

I have used nizoral just as a dandruff thing here and there, long before the shed started. Mine was actually the physical manipulation of my scalp. Im sure its somewhere in my recents posts. Ive noticed a pretty good difference at 1-2mg Vitamin K a day, though it very well could not specifically attributed to that. My skin is healthier, my scalp softer. I think omega6s too should be avoided. I think closely trying to replicate evolutionary human nature is probably wise with regard to diet.

Today I plan on starting a 3 hour a day cardio regimen, mixing up biking, rowing, and "creative" dancing/kickboxing/bodyweight exercises (cant run quite yet with a nagging shin splint). Should be interesting to see how this plays out. I'm keeping track of my sleep, energy levels, heart rate, temps, and morning control pause. I'm trying to hit caveman hunter levels of fitness, without the burnout (fingers crossed). I have a theory that aerobic exercise with strict nasal breathing is the best medicine anyone can do, so Ima test it on myself and see where it takes me. I've come to this conclusion through a combination of Buteyko and Dr. Phil Maffetone's work. Although Maffetone seems to emphasize the aerobic engine for optimizing fat utilization, where as Peat seems to emphasize glucose oxidation. I have to do more research to see how those two interplay, but I do believe that having a well developed aerobic engine is key to vibrant health, recovery, sleep, and energy. I know that Maffetone likes low carb diets, but honestly I don't know how anyone does them. I've tried multiple times and end up feeling like ***t. When I'm eating carbs I feel much, much better.

Without a doubt, I only started shedding when my super easy aerobic walking was eliminated. I have no doubt it was protective to some degree. Once it left, thats when the cascade kinda started. I think your idea is good, but i would suggest a longer ramp up period compared to what you think you need. I was telling a forum member, "business as usual" in regard to making changes in the body.

Yea Peat definitely recommends avoidance of ALL polyunsaturated oils. I've ditched my fish oils supps, and have avoided vegetable oils for a long time. Where I'm still torn is avocados and eggs. They have PUFA, but also a lot of other additional beneficial nutrients. I'm avoiding them for the meantime and probably will reduce their consumption to once or twice a week. I can't imagine in a Paleolithic era we were feasting on eggs every day lol. They definitely would have been hard to come by.

Yea I've been doing cardio since January 1st, so I've had a decent ramp up period. I just finished up with two hours of cardio (one in the morning, one in the evening) and honestly its quite enjoyable and pretty easy. Doesn't feel stressful whatsoever. My heart rate in the morning was a little more intense at ~150 avg bpm during my bike ride. I rowed/elliptical'd for an hour in the afternoon and my heart rate never went above 130. I was just chillin listenin to music easy nose breathing the whole time. I don't feel drained or exhausted at all, and I felt like I could easily go longer. I decided to stop though because I think exercise may be better in 1 hour sessions as opposed to marathon long 2-4 hour lengths. Now that I've eaten and settled down, the thought of doing one more hour of dancing/kickboxing/bodyweight exercising does seem like too much, so I'll probably stick to two hours a day for a week and then add another hour next week.

I'm attempting order Vitamin K2 right now (MK-7). All the bottles I see are around 100 mcg, are you taking 10 of these pills a day?? If not is there a source you recommend? I've seen a couple with some omega 6 oils which I'm attempting avoid. One looked good with coconut oil but someone posted that it has carrageenan which apparently is a carcinogen. Is it seriously this hard to find a sup with just K2 and no other bs. I think it should seriously help with my shin splints, and also with hardening of teeth and bones. I also read somewhere that MPB could also be caused by overcalcification of the scalp, so if true, a K2 + D pair would be a power combo for directing calcium away from the scalp. I definitely know inflammation is a key factor as well, so churning up the metabolism is also pretty important. After exercise my temp was at 97.4. I ate a potato + cheese+ salt + milk meal and my temp rose to 98.0. I think I'm definitely making progress. Last time I remember consistently recording temps (at the height of low energy levels, anxiety, and shedding) my temps were consistently in the 96s and 97s. Are you able to get your temp to 98.6? I feel like that's the golden number but for me its been quite elusive so far....
 

Luckytype

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No im using the thorne brand drops. I think it was like 60 bucks but ive been using it since december and it hasnt budged. I was probably insanely depleted on most nutrients so as long as I feel ok with no sides im going to push them. Another very odd thing that might be happening is my teeth seem to be cleaner, longer. I dont know if its random or what.

I have had a few very small time periods where ive hit 97, i can usually float around 97.7-98.1 but i havent established a relationship with influences from food yet. My waking temps are pathetic at around 97.2-97.6 but randomly Saturday i woke up at 98.1. So i have no consistency yet despite my life being consistent.

The one thing i think im noticing is if i can artificially raise my temp with a shower or bath, it seems to stay a little higher for longer. Not 100 percent sure yet on that though.
 

tara

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'm attempting order Vitamin K2 right now (MK-7). All the bottles I see are around 100 mcg, are you taking 10 of these pills a day?? If not is there a source you recommend?
Some here are using K2 from Thorne, Health Natura, or Idealabs.
 

Fractality

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I'm giving bicycling a try as exercise. I used to lift weights but after some life changes, I decided I no longer valued the bodybuilding ideals. It's been about 1.5 years since I last stepped foot into a gym and I haven't lost as much lean tissue as one might expect. However, I did notice that I was missing exercise, and finally decided to invest in a road bike. I went on a ride today and I'm optimistic biking can satisfy the urge to exercise without violating Peaty principles. I think one of the keys are to minimize exposure to busy roads (exhaust fumes) and to not remain in a breathless state.

1. It's concentric exercise.
2. It isn't hard on the joints.
3. It provides a self-directed blend of low and high intensity cardio.
4. You get sunlight/outdoors exposure.
5. It's mentally stimulating with a sense of loose freedom.
 

tara

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1. It's concentric exercise.
2. It isn't hard on the joints.
3. It provides a self-directed blend of low and high intensity cardio.
4. You get sunlight/outdoors exposure.
5. It's mentally stimulating with a sense of loose freedom.
6. It's a way to get from here to there ...
7. ... without burning more fossil fuels and adding to the exhaust fumes
8. Sometimes, depending on the trip, it's easier to get through/avoid traffic and find a place to park.
 

Runenight201

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I'm giving bicycling a try as exercise. I used to lift weights but after some life changes, I decided I no longer valued the bodybuilding ideals. It's been about 1.5 years since I last stepped foot into a gym and I haven't lost as much lean tissue as one might expect. However, I did notice that I was missing exercise, and finally decided to invest in a road bike. I went on a ride today and I'm optimistic biking can satisfy the urge to exercise without violating Peaty principles. I think one of the keys are to minimize exposure to busy roads (exhaust fumes) and to not remain in a breathless state.

1. It's concentric exercise.
2. It isn't hard on the joints.
3. It provides a self-directed blend of low and high intensity cardio.
4. You get sunlight/outdoors exposure.
5. It's mentally stimulating with a sense of loose freedom.

Fractality. I'd highly recommend strict avoidance of mouth breathing as well. Strictly nasal breathing prevents hyperventilation and depletion of CO2, which is needed for tissue oxygenation. I was in the gym today rowing along and I was surprised at how practically everyone was mouth breathing! They looked so stressed out I felt bad for them. I'm not too sure about the high intensity stuff, if it causes you to mouth breathe Id say avoid it. Afterall, we're looking for good health here, not athletic performance! When I'm cruising around at 120-30 bpm nose breathing, it honestly feels so good and relaxing and I feel like I could just cruise along all day.

Also....I've got some pretty awesome results =P For some reason I felt a little ansty reading some of Danny Roddy's work on MPB. So I decided to start dancing lol. I danced for about 50 minutes, broke a good sweat. Took my temp AND IT WAS AT 98.7! Naturally exercise raises body temperature so I'm not sure if this is something to write home about but hell yea I broke 98.6!!

I personally think a Peat diet + 2-3 hours of aerobic exercise + nasal breathing 24/7 is where good health is at =) I'm pretty fortunate that I'm in between jobs right now and got some savings so I'm just exercising and eating and researching lol so I have pretty low stress atm. I think getting an active job is where at its at. I noticed a high amount of unhealthy people at my last sedentary engineering job. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same all across corporate America. Too bad manual labor doesn't pay as well =( Perhaps I'll invest in one of those walking treadmills lol.
 

Luckytype

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Ive done the manual and trade labor thing. If youre young and resilient sure, the right stuff pays great. If youre not young theres a good chance youll cook yourself in several years time. Too much sun, tons of non-fed hours, sometimes really intense physical exertion, even with PPE exposure to tons of nasty things. I dont think my body would do it again.
 

Runenight201

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Ive done the manual and trade labor thing. If youre young and resilient sure, the right stuff pays great. If youre not young theres a good chance youll cook yourself in several years time. Too much sun, tons of non-fed hours, sometimes really intense physical exertion, even with PPE exposure to tons of nasty things. I dont think my body would do it again.

Ah that does sound intense. There's also warehouse jobs, so that could minimize sun exposure. I'm not sure how many pollutants you'd be exposed to inside say a packaging facility (like amazon). Idk. All I know is that we're not designed to sit around all day that's for sure. 100,000 years ago a primitive human being was either walking, squatting, running, or sleeping. Perhaps the best compromise is a walking treadmill.

Now that I think about it, I wonder how we slept 100,000 years ago. Dr. Artour Rakhimov speculates that we probably slept sitting up. I wonder if some human beings could fall asleep while squatting....Apparently sleeping sitting up results in more shallow breathing, which is good from a Buteyko vantage point.
 

Jsaute21

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Yes because their metabolism downregulates. Try jogging and taking T3 every day, see how far you can get after a month.
Great point. When i first took T3, i noticed i could not work out as long as I could before when i was running on fats. That has since worked itself out programming wise, but eliminating stress hormones is step 1 as most of us now know.
 

churchmouth

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Who says cardio has to be so long to satisfy? I feel like I am getting benefits from simply running 1.5 km as fast as I can (about 5 minutes now) a couple of times a week. Even then I can feel some lactic acid and endorphins.
 

Runenight201

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If you're getting benefits, keep on going. I think the most important thing is that the form of physical activity that is undertaken is enjoyable. I can definitely get with the raw, primal excitement of sprinting full force. That being said, lactic acid is indicative of anaerobic metabolism which is probably something you want to avoid over accumulation of. If you are getting benefits from it, than you're probably doing it in a healthy manner and your body is positively adapting to the stress being placed on it.

In Ray Peat's article on lactate, Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer:
Lactate increases blood viscosity, mimics stress, causes inflammation, and contributes to shock.

That being said, inflammation can be healthy since it encourages anabolic growth to muscle. It's only when we have chronic inflammation that it becomes an issue. Everything depends on context.
 

nbznj

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I moderately care about hormonal disruption in sedentary females. I'm an active male and want to know how much is too much, just like anything diet related. It sounds like we've got some room based on the references here:

How Endurance Exercise Lowers Testosterone & What To Do About It | Poliquin Article
(maybe disregard some of the dietary advices)

More specifically, sprinting has never been shown to be a problem in athletes:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/00365518009101862?journalCode=iclb20

And in the general population strength training yields much better results after 12 weeks compared to endurance training.

http://www.scholarsresearchlibrary....necortisol-ratio-in-untrained-young-males.pdf

It also seems that the great debate "when to do cardio - before or after a heavy workout" is in favor of AFTER a workout. As a way to cool down and lower lactic acid.

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17461391.2016.1236148?journalCode=tejs20

I'd need to do better research but I'm short on time right now; I've read much better studies/articles in the past but my Google seems off tonight :)
 

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