Euphoria - The Last Question In Peat-dom

[DaveFoster]

Is euphoria possible? Is euphoria sustainable? What if we could feel euphoric every moment of our waking life, as if we just dropped the most perfect concoction of mind-altering substances; all organic, all healthy, all real, and then just drop into sound sleep like a baby when we are done. How do we achieve this ideal physiological state? Keep raising dopamine and crushing serotonin/cortisol/adrenaline/prolactin?

I'm talking hypomania people! Positive optimism, enjoyment of music, fulfillment in relationships; a life free from anxiety, worry, and stress. I believe it's possible to get into this state and maintain it. What are your thoughts?

 

[Brian]

Is euphoria possible? Is euphoria sustainable? What if we could feel euphoric every moment of our waking life, as if we just dropped the most perfect concoction of mind-altering substances; all organic, all healthy, all real, and then just drop into sound sleep like a baby when we are done. How do we achieve this ideal physiological state? Keep raising dopamine and crushing serotonin/cortisol/adrenaline/prolactin?

I'm talking hypomania people! Positive optimism, enjoyment of music, fulfillment in relationships; a life free from anxiety, worry, and stress. I believe it's possible to get into this state and maintain it. What are your thoughts?

I don't know about mania, but I know several people who have obtained a nearly constant blissful and productive state though a pro-metabolic diet/lifestyle, circadian rhythm, and mind-body connection practices like meditation and Qi Gong that strengthen vagal tone. And they use no mind altering or serotonin lowering drugs.

I suspect that a big part of emotional states are interrelated with vagal tone, but a pro-metabolic state plays an equally important role and they both seem to amplify each other.

 

[Parsifal]

I'm interested as my world is shallow and chronically anhedonic since many years.

 

[michael94]

Depends what you mean, high dopamine low serotonin/stress hourmones is like a calm, focused pleasurable state of mind. You enjoy getting things done and look forward to upcoming challenges. It feels really good, not sure if I'd call it euphoria? Euphoria when I think of it is more of an excited state, but interesting question.

 

[DaveFoster]

I don't know about mania, but I know several people who have obtained a nearly constant blissful and productive state though a pro-metabolic diet/lifestyle, circadian rhythm, and mind-body connection practices like meditation and Qi Gong that strengthen vagal tone. And they use no mind altering or serotonin lowering drugs.

Very interesting, meditation just doesn't do it for me though. LSD instills a state of bliss, but isn't really sustainable due to the price and possible cardiac fibrosis.

post 109031 Depends what you mean, high dopamine low serotonin/stress hourmones is like a calm, focused pleasurable state of mind. You enjoy getting things done and look forward to upcoming challenges. It feels really good, not sure if I'd call it euphoria? Euphoria when I think of it is more of an excited state, but interesting question.

This is what I mean, but I think there's a distinction between mania and euphoria. Mania is excessive euphoria, but euphoria is an absence of anhedonia (as mentioned by Parsifal), along with dopaminergic transmission in the brain. The problem is tolerance.

 

[PeatThemAll]

Achieving Flow (aka being in the zone) is something that happens, to me, when all intake needs are covered (physiological, emotional, psychological) and my behavior is in-line with current performance / adaptation / expectations (professional, social, etc.). For some, that latter is on auto-pilot (instinct) but to me it's all but passive. Not necessarily intensive monitoring, but as they say some mindfulness required.

Peating really helps to 'shut up' physiological distractions. That includes having a certain level of bodyfat (BMI in the lower 20s) otherwise I get that wired feeling that no specific food or supplement can address, with the exception of saturated fat (quite temporary calming).

 

[piotr_zarach]

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi has contributed pioneering work to our understanding of happiness, creativity, human fulfillment and the notion of "flow" — a state of heightened focus and immersion in activities such as art, play and work.

https://www.ted.com/talks/mihaly_csiksz ... yi_on_flow

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihaly_Csikszentmihalyi

 

[Vinero]

Start growing mushrooms

 

[answersfound]

Cyproheptadine puts me in this state of adehonia. It's miserable. But once it gets out of my system after 36 hours, holy crap. I feel like king of the world. I feel like I can do anything I want.

 

[tobieagle]

Very interesting, meditation just doesn't do it for me though. LSD instills a state of bliss, but isn't really sustainable due to the price and possible cardiac fibrosis.

Price?
A 150 mcg blotter costs around 9 dollar on the black market.
So a 15mcg dose is less than a dollar.

I don't even want to think about how cheap LSD would be if legalized.
Probably less than a cent per dose.

 

[Brian]

Very interesting, meditation just doesn't do it for me though. LSD instills a state of bliss, but isn't really sustainable due to the price and possible cardiac fibrosis.

Meditation and similar practices take a lot of time for their effects to start to show. The goal, in my opinion, is to train the mind to observe the present in preference over it's internal predictions and calculations of threats. Once the mind learns to not fear its own thoughts so literally a nearly constant bliss begins to be always present as the fight and flight response is less easily triggered over trivial things.

A good thyroid driven metabolism is a pre-requisite though. I doubt it is possible to make much progress in mind-body connection practices without it.

 

[franko]

Is euphoria possible? Is euphoria sustainable? What if we could feel euphoric every moment of our waking life, as if we just dropped the most perfect concoction of mind-altering substances; all organic, all healthy, all real, and then just drop into sound sleep like a baby when we are done. How do we achieve this ideal physiological state?

This website is relevant to your query: http://www.biopsychiatry.com

In centuries to come, our emotional well-being may indeed surpass anything that human legacy wetware can even contemplate...

 

[DaveFoster]

post 109287

Is euphoria possible? Is euphoria sustainable? What if we could feel euphoric every moment of our waking life, as if we just dropped the most perfect concoction of mind-altering substances; all organic, all healthy, all real, and then just drop into sound sleep like a baby when we are done. How do we achieve this ideal physiological state?

This website is relevant to your query: http://www.biopsychiatry.com

That was very insightful, thank you. It seems the author wrongly dismisses ergot-derivatives as cognitively impairing, but this only happens at higher doses. He also mentions the positive effects of opiates in opposition to Ray Peat. It seems that we have a few options:

- Ergot-derivatives (LSD, hydergine, lisuride, bromocriptine, and possible others)
- Tianeptine
- Agolemantine (seems more controversial)
- GHB (also controversial)
- Amineptine (alongside Tianeptine)

I would first try hydergine, then tinapetine, then amineptine, but maybe there are even better options to the third.

 

[michael94]

post 109314

post 109287

Is euphoria possible? Is euphoria sustainable? What if we could feel euphoric every moment of our waking life, as if we just dropped the most perfect concoction of mind-altering substances; all organic, all healthy, all real, and then just drop into sound sleep like a baby when we are done. How do we achieve this ideal physiological state?

This website is relevant to your query: http://www.biopsychiatry.com

That was very insightful, thank you. It seems the author wrongly dismisses ergot-derivatives as cognitively impairing, but this only happens at higher doses. He also mentions the positive effects of opiates in opposition to Ray Peat. It seems that we have a few options:

- Ergot-derivatives (LSD, hydergine, lisuride, bromocriptine, and possible others)
- Tianeptine
- Agolemantine (seems more controversial)
- GHB (also controversial)
- Amineptine (alongside Tianeptine)

I would first try hydergine, then tinapetine, then amineptine, but maybe there are even better options to the third.

I would put low dose lsd ( 5-20 mcg ) ahead of those things though I haven't tried them personally. I think LSD is a wonder drug

 

[DaveFoster]

I would put low dose lsd ( 5-20 mcg ) ahead of those things though I haven't tried them personally. I think LSD is a wonder drug

I agree, but hydergine does not carry the risk of cardiac fibrosis. However, cyproheptadine may attentuate this effect.

Further, other anti-histamines may also possess this mitigation of cardiac fibrosis, while also lessening the effects of cyproheptadine as a D3 antagonist.

 

[Elchapchapchapo]

Dave this being three years ago - curious about your thoughts now?

 

[KyleKingsly]

I'm so glad you bumped this thread, elchap, because I've been following this thread with an incredible amount of of interest. I think it would be difficult to sustain euphoria in terms of "high" that some mean by the term, but it is definitely possible (though still difficult) to induce consistent hypomania, which could be incredibly powerful and enjoyable. If we could sustain the high feeling too, that would be mind blowing, but I think that inducing consistent motivation, enthusiasm, and zest for life could potentially create a natural high all the time because you'd be able to pursue your goals to the full extent possible and love the process of doing that.

"Cheating the hedonic treadmill" as the author of that incredibly excellent web post puts it is the ultimate key to everything that matters in life. The question is how to get there!

I agree, but hydergine does not carry the risk of cardiac fibrosis. However, cyproheptadine may attentuate this effect.

Further, other anti-histamines may also possess this mitigation of cardiac fibrosis, while also lessening the effects of cyproheptadine as a D3 antagonist.

First of all, I don't think that LSD is the best option out there for many as it's too psychedelic even at microdoses and can make it too difficult to use well in the chaos of ordinary life. In a controlled set and setting it's fine, but for people with neurotic tendencies and social anxiety, it makes life too stressful and intense, despite the great benefits to life appreciation and motivation. I am very interested in trying its research chemical cousin, MIPLA, however, because it seems to have the same potential as LSD in terms of what we want while possessing greatly reduced psychedelia and thus seems better suited for going about one's day as normal. It recently became available and I'm hoping to try it soon.

I'm not quite sure which would be better, MIPLA or hydergine, given that they're both partial dopamine agonists, and so I'm interested in trying both. I'm hoping that MIPLA would be smoother since hydergine seems to be kind of edgy and induce stress and/or anxiety in a good number of people.

Also, do you have evidence that hydergine does not have the risk of cardiac fibrosis? I've seen that stated matter-of-factly in several places, I believe it originated here and then was spread to reddit but I've never been able to come across any evidence that that's actually true. I really want to believe that it doesn't, but I'm far more inclined to believe that it does, because one one of the ingredients in the blend (it's a blend of 3 alkaloids) has been directly linked to fibrosis. The alkaloid is dihydroergocristine, and here's one of the comprehensive reports on the damage: http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB...rivatives-containing_products/WC500161301.pdf.

If one were to not use it too frequently, it might be alright, but it's hard to say for sure. It is very interesting that cypro seems to be able to block the damage tho, that makes me feel much more comfortable about using hydergine but I'm not sure if cypro is the best because it seems to induce lethargy and drowsiness in many users. What other antihistamines have this same effect Dave?

 

[cyclops]

but it is definitely possible (though still difficult) to induce consistent hypomania

That's interesting way of putting it. What have you found to induce consistent hypomania?

 

[KyleKingsly]

That's interesting way of putting it. What have you found to induce consistent hypomania?

I wish I knew, that's the whole thing I'm hoping to learn with this thread! 4.8 grams of piracetam (1.6g, 3x per day) seems to work well for some people but not me unfortunately. Also it doesn't seem to be sustainable so I advise only using that stuff a few days a week.

I'm thinking that nicergoline may not induce much euphoria or enjoyment in doing work, but it will be very helpful in getting it done. I think hydergine and low doses of MIPLA seem very promising, along with perhaps lisuride occasionally. Microdosing psychedelics seems quite promising in general, but the popular ones aren't the best ones to use (shrooms and LSD are overrated.) I'm very interested in 3C-E and 3C-P right now, tho they're hard to find.

Oh and I think very low dose amisulpride could be great too, as I discussed in another thread (check my post history).

 

[Collden]

This site has some interesting stuff on pleasure based on the ideas of Wilhelm Reich and Alexander Lowen:
Pleasure

The Pleasure Economy: The pleasure process was described by Wilhelm Reich as having 'four beats': physical tension, energetic charge, energetic discharge, and physical relaxation. Hold ups occur around charge and discharge. Physical undertakings like sex and eating are obvious examples of the pleasure economy. Tension and charge with anticipation of pleasureable discharge can be called excitement. An excited state is usually associated with some movement but not all movements enable discharge, and discharge is not merely a movement. Discharge and relaxation after sufficient tension and charge brings a desirable state of experience described under the goal of satisfaction. It is also important to distinguish discharge from 'release'...

...Problems with discharge and relaxation are much more common than problems with tension and charge. That is, problems achieving enjoyable release are more common than problems achieving excitement. Excitement is necessary for pleasure, but not sufficient. This build up of excitement can become painful, especially if it is considerable and discharge is not available. Excitement must subside away in the absence of discharge, and while this may be tolerable and inevitable at times, it is never satisfying. Work often builds tension over the course of the day. At quitting time there can be a natural release of tension in the body which is pleasureable. When work consists of extreme vigilance, is drudgery, is resented, or has no real stopping point, this natural release may not occur. Hence the ritual of drinking right after work, which provides an artificial release for a time but soon weakens the natural release, and dependency is common.

Very commonly the inability to discharge leads eventually to an inability to charge. This the basis of depression and dysthymia. The problem of pleasure in this case may seem to be lack of good fortune with external events, but it is really an internal incapacity for pleasure. To a depressed person, normally very exciting things do not produce the excitement, this is the basis of anhedonia. Relative anhedonia may exist apart from depressive episodes. A self-depriving ideology may be adopted to make sense of this pleasurelessness.

I interpret this as meaning that pleasure and excitement can become a positive feedback loop, i.e. when you experience a pleasurable discharge it will increase your ability to become excited again, increasing the amplitude of the bioenergetic fluxes within you, and contrarily can cause a negative feedback loop where a lack of pleasurable discharge experiences make you less capable to become excited about things with time. Focus on leading a fun life full of excitement and pleasure and your capacity for euphoria will increase with time.