Ethical Claims Of The Vegan Diet

Herbie

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I live in a country where its the size of the USA with a population of 44 million kangaroos and 24 million humans.

Was this ethical/save the Earth/vegan/sustainable invented to stop western people from breeding?

It ends in nihilism and not wanting to breed.

The earth is one big demolition party, come and **** the place up experience the depth of being a human being and enjoy the beauty and leave the body suit to somewhere else.

I walk around on remains of cataclysmic events that I cannot fathom and wonder when the next one will be?
 

lvysaur

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veganism is only the continuation of the same ideology, on the same basis as the anti-slavery thoughts!

Not really, since people of different races are still humans, and are all capable of reproducing with each other; so much so that most groups thought of as traditionally "pure" (east asians, europeans, etc.) are heavily mixed themselves.

This is untrue for non-human animals. There is definitely some vagueness (can we reproduce with chimps/bonobos?) but there is a clear zone where things stop being human.
 

MatheusPN

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Not really, since people of different races are still humans, and are all capable of reproducing with each other; so much so that most groups thought of as traditionally "pure" (east asians, europeans, etc.) are heavily mixed themselves.

This is untrue for non-human animals. There is definitely some vagueness (can we reproduce with chimps/bonobos?) but there is a clear zone where things stop being human.

Obviously all humans are homos sapiens sapiens, certainly Europeans etc. are highly mixed, I imagine that even the most isolated tribe or the purest, had a significant mixture, certainly we are a single subspecies of humans; this is a faltering definition to define a species or sub-species, since different species of humans could reproduce successfully, Sapiens with Neanderthals for example ...

I will be clearer my statement is veganism has the same logic Abolitionist, just extended to all sentient beings!
I had written another statement, strangely the issue ended up putting the old, inscrutable
 

MatheusPN

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Was this ethical/save the Earth/vegan/sustainable invented to stop western people from breeding?

Was this vegan invented to stop western people from breeding?
Veganism was invented to aims to cease, diminish animal exploitation, allow greater freedom and integrity to sentient beings, then promotes the boycott of animal products, encourages zeal.
Vegans build things soon destroy the habitat of other beings, use money soon indirectly help industries that kill, would kill to survive, veganism is sensate and moderate because what is vital, necessary or "imprescindível" can be done; but what is unnecessarily cruel is clearly aim to suppression!
 
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Sobieski

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I live in a country where its the size of the USA with a population of 44 million kangaroos and 24 million humans.

Was this ethical/save the Earth/vegan/sustainable invented to stop western people from breeding?

It ends in nihilism and not wanting to breed.

The earth is one big demolition party, come and **** the place up experience the depth of being a human being and enjoy the beauty and leave the body suit to somewhere else.

I walk around on remains of cataclysmic events that I cannot fathom and wonder when the next one will be?

Veganism aside, there are a lot of things that are pushed on people of European descent that makes it appear as though their not reproducing is viewed as a good thing.
 

lvysaur

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Was this ethical/save the Earth/vegan/sustainable invented to stop western people from breeding?

If you think veganism is specifically pushed on europeans, you're a bit ignorant.

If anything, more of this crap is pushed on the people of developing countries, with half-assed "justifications" of the behavior based on willfully blind interpretation of their ancestral traditions.

Like that study about arachidonic acid production in certain ethnic groups, where instead of the logical conclusion (hot climate game has less and more saturated fat), they chose the vegan conclusion (these people weren't "meant" to be meat eaters). All this as the 3rd world is developing, and thus unlocking more and more access to animal meat.
 

SOMO

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I was a Vegan for 6 years.

It absolutely ruined my health and I started feeling depression which did not go away until I reintroduced cholesterol


Even IF Veganism was the most ethical way to eat. ethical does not mean best for that individual.


Also eating ruminants and natural cattle farming practices are beneficial to the environment.
Cows convert PUFAs to Saturated Fats. Cows are literally ANTI-PUFA factories.


Also did you know Dairy Cows stop producing milk if you feed them too much corn/soy? So much of the "GRASS FED MILK" is marketing and advertising...dairy farmers have known for a long time that if you don't feed your cows grass, milk production goes down.

Grass-Fed Dairy Cows are not necessarily treated more ethically than dairy from cows that are not advertised as grass-fed (in either case they were fed largely grass.)


The real reason to get grass-fed and grass-FINISHED dairy is the higher Vitamin A, D, E and K contents in the fat fraction of the milk.
 

mt_dreams

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I don't know why omnivores keep deluding themselves with obviously bogus arguments. Vegan/vegetarianism is more ethical. Lab meat is more ethical. Eating meat kills more plants than eating plants does, AND kills the animal on top of that.

I'm just going to eat real meat anyway.



Speak for yourself, I don't find myself particularly perturbed by either. I would if I were living there.
well i was speaking generally, as in what people around me & the media seemed concerned with at the time, nevertheless I got your point and agree with it.

As for vegan/veg being more ethical, I'm not so certain. ethics is man made, not an absolute. i have no clue how lab meat is grown (ie what raw materials it needs), but I'm sure many will find it unethical to deny a domesticated animal the chance to live just b/c it will eventually die prematurely. what i mean is there would in no way be as many domesticated animals on the planet if the planet did not consume meat. they're just too labor intensive, and they can't live in the wild anymore. the same can be said for humans as labor/soliders. likewise the carnivore/veg camps who purchase dairy from suppliers who keep their female workforce constantly lactating, sometimes even while they're pregnant with another calf, could be considered just as unethical as ending the animals life for 20k grams of protein & fat energy.

I've been to grass-root farms in my area and the animals don't seem all that concerned that every so often animals leave the group and never return. if they could laugh & whistle , i'd bet they'd be doing it all day long.

i'm not concerned with the death of things, my concern is with how it lived. currently the commercial plant & animal markets do not meat my desired ethical standards ... maybe one day they will.
 

lvysaur

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what i mean is there would in no way be as many domesticated animals on the planet if the planet did not consume meat. they're just too labor intensive, and they can't live in the wild anymore.

If we stopped eating meat, all that pastureland would become biodiversity. Additionally, all the domestic animals would still survive, just in much smaller numbers as hobby/show animals.

It is more ethical. But I like meat and possibly need some for optimal functioning. Many people eat way more than is necessary, and that should be avoided.
 

mt_dreams

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If we stopped eating meat, all that pastureland would become biodiversity. Additionally, all the domestic animals would still survive, just in much smaller numbers as hobby/show animals.

It is more ethical. But I like meat and possibly need some for optimal functioning. Many people eat way more than is necessary, and that should be avoided.
it's more ethical based on your version of what is ethical. ethics is not math or science where everyone will get the same answer. i don't know anybody that owns a large show animal, hopefully the goat would not go extinct as they are a handful to contain in a loving way. also the land will not return to it's bio-diverse roots, as it will be needed for plant crops. every time a plant crop field is needed, countless species of all kingdoms die or loose their home. the small scale grass-fed pastures i've seen, though not as diverse as natural woodlands, have a decent amount of plant, fungi, & insect diversity, and no chemicals targeting those three kingdoms like plant crops do.

i'm not defending animal eating, just saying the subject is not so black and white as to say one is absolutely more ethical, you can write many volumes of books on the pros & cons of each. i'm not yet a believer in soylent beef, we'll see how the next 10 years go with that one. if we start building those energy & land efficient aquaponic grow houses on a large scale, then it would be a lot harder for me to disagree with your stance. soil erosion is one thing i hate about current plant crop techniques. thankfully we have the tech in the event we loose the ability to grow like we currently do.
 

mt_dreams

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Also did you know Dairy Cows stop producing milk if you feed them too much corn/soy? So much of the "GRASS FED MILK" is marketing and advertising...dairy farmers have known for a long time that if you don't feed your cows grass, milk production goes down.

Grass-Fed Dairy Cows are not necessarily treated more ethically than dairy from cows that are not advertised as grass-fed (in either case they were fed largely grass.)

I live in the north. hey is quite expensive, especially if the summer was overtly dry. soy is very cheap, and might even be subsidized. i would imagine farmers have calculations to know if the increase in cost for hay will yield enough extra milk to justify the extra hay cost. Commercial milk farms around me typically use soy with hay, while small scale add oats to their bales, though i've never inquired about these percentages
 

lvysaur

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ethics is not math or science where everyone will get the same answer. i don't know anybody that owns a large show animal, hopefully the goat would not go extinct as they are a handful to contain in a loving way.

I mean there are only two basic ethical systems one can subscribe to; one where you mitigate harm, and one where you lack any moral principles.

With regard to animals, domestic cows/pigs are a huge biomass of very little genetic diversity. We, and our animals, are occupying land at the expense of other creatures. So it is ethical to allow the disadvantaged opportunity to flourish.

Unless you subscribe to a system of ethics defined by a lack of ethical principles, in which case whatever you want to do is ethical to start with.

I'm not attacking animal eating, I eat animals all the time. I'm just stating a fact that being vegan is more ethical.
 

mt_dreams

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I mean there are only two basic ethical systems one can subscribe to; one where you mitigate harm, and one where you lack any moral principles.

With regard to animals, domestic cows/pigs are a huge biomass of very little genetic diversity. We, and our animals, are occupying land at the expense of other creatures. So it is ethical to allow the disadvantaged opportunity to flourish.

Unless you subscribe to a system of ethics defined by a lack of ethical principles, in which case whatever you want to do is ethical to start with.

I'm not attacking animal eating, I eat animals all the time. I'm just stating a fact that being vegan is more ethical.
yeah i'm getting at what your pointing out. i just see the plant kingdom as my forefathers, and just b/c they don't contain a sentient brain, doesn't mean they deserve to die any more than animals. the animal kingdom are not the gods of this planet or nature and do not have anymore a right to life than the other kingdoms. we have a definite overgrowth of domesticated animals and plants. this is why i was referencing aquaponics as the solution, so the outside world could grow as nature intended without our grow crops interfering. we'd still be killing plants for food, something their genetics clearly does not want to happen, so I'm not sure where I would stand if this ever happened. i read a book called the language of trees, and they scream when you injure them, let alone eat them. there's also the case from my province where plants that did not like how much they were being eaten poisioned a decent number of bison to slow the rate down to natural levels. the perfect ethical diet is probably the land of milk and honey, it's the only diet where the food was unconditional meant to be eaten.
 

lvysaur

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the perfect ethical diet is probably the land of milk and honey, it's the only diet where the food was unconditional meant to be eaten.

But milk steals nutrition from a calf. Honey from bees. Eggs from a potential reptile/fish. Grains from a potential plant.

Fruit is the only truly ethical food.
 

mt_dreams

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But milk steals nutrition from a calf. Honey from bees. Eggs from a potential reptile/fish. Grains from a potential plant.

Fruit is the only truly ethical food.
yeah by honey i meant fruit, i was just using the old proverb. a neighbor of mine grows honey and although he has to clip the wings of the queen, she still has one of the best experiences of any kingdom, let alone the insect kingdom. the bee society will still be healthy if done properly. same goes for maple water where i live. i don't consider eggs part of dairy, they are animals. milk steals nutrition from the calf, but a cow makes up to twice as much milk that is needed for the calf. it's still not perfect, but humans gotta work to live as per our current society structure so it's not that far of a stretch for cows to do the same as a trade off for protection from predators. only problem with that would be that we would have to artificially inseminate as we wouldn't want male cows just lounging around while the female ones do all the work :p:
 

SOMO

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ALL LIFE "PENETRATES" OTHER LIFE in some way.

Stop thinking of Diet in terms of ethics and think of it in terms of ENERGY.

1. BEE STINGS YOU - it penetrates your energetic field.
2. You consume honey - you are penetrating the energetic field of the bee hive and all the flowers that rely on pollination and the new generation of bees.
3. COW EATS grass - it penetrates the energetic field of the soil microbes, insects and small mammals that hide among the grasses.
4. You consume beef - you are penetrating the energetic field of the cow and are saving hundreds of insects and microbes that would have been consumed by the cow's energy,

There is no difference to me, energetically, between you eating beef and the cow eating grass - you are BOTH penetrating an energetic field somewhere.

Cycle:
Cow eats grass,
you eat cow/beef
you defecate out the food
your feces enter the soil/sewage systems
reintroducing microbes that boost the soil quality
and the cycle begins anew.
pPXUUCa.png



This cycle is why you should never feel guilty or bad about eating meat.


Also ruminants like cows convert PUFAs in the grasses into SFAs through Biohydrogenation, which is why ruminants rule. Humans have developed alongside cattle for longer than we've developed alongside canines. We probably tracked herds of aurochs or other herbivores since they pretty much create food wherever they go.
 

lvysaur

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Humans have developed alongside cattle for longer than we've developed alongside canines. We probably tracked herds of aurochs or other herbivores since they pretty much create food wherever they go.

The evidence suggests the opposite, that humans domesticated dogs earlier than cows.
 

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