Ethical Claims Of The Vegan Diet

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
pboy said:
4peatssake said:
pboy said:
if you cant tell the diference...I mean come on man. Plants are obviously alive, but you can ask a kid to uproot a plant and they will with at most little hesitation. You tell them to kill an animal its way different and they likely wont do it. Its obviously different to your senses, and conscience
Good grief! :shock:

We are talking about animals and plants as nourishment for human bodies, not encouraging children to kill animals or to destroy plants for that matter either.

You missed entirely the point about proper stewardship and how to be in wondrous unity with all of life as indigenous people have done for countless generations, at least those who have kept close to their tribal wisdom.

Do you blame lions for killing their prey? Should they too eat only fruit, or just humans should?
There is a circle of life.

I was making an analogy to make a point, its pretty bad if you cant see that
Lions are lions, humans are humans, theres no comparison
being a proper steward doesn't mean blindly eating meat because it tastes good or because you are buying it from someone else doing all the work and slaughtering. You think buying average meat at a grocery store or restaurant is being a good steward? Im not even going to get into it with you because it would be a waste of time, being a good steward extends way beyond just what we eat also
It was a poor analogy and completely off the mark.

Saying lions are lions and humans are humans doesn't provide any reasoning for why it's OK for lions to kill to eat but it's not OK for humans. I get this is an emotional subject for you but insinuating I am somehow morally or intellectually corrupted ("its pretty bad if you cant see that") for not agreeing with you isn't a balanced argument. It's just name calling and impolite. And so I understand you choosing "to not get in it." with me. ;)

I also didn't say proper stewardship meant blindly eating animals because they taste good or that buying meat at a grocery store meant good stewardship either. What I did say was that some indigenous people who have not lost touch with their spiritual wisdom remember what it is to be a proper steward. Most of them do not limit their diets to fruit.

You claimed it is spiritually superior to not eat meat. I am refuting that argument.

I also understand stewardship of the earth extends beyond the food supply. But it is food that we are discussing at present and proper stewardship very much involves the care of the planet's food supply so all of life can be well nourished and able to live a balanced, healthy life.

Humanity has fallen a mighty long way. It is far from being a proper steward of the earth.
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
im not getting emotional, I think you might be about that analogy
the reason I don't want to argue with you is because there would never be a concensus and you already made up your mind, but I guess ill post one more thing

Theres a difference between eating meat because you have to and because you want to, most indigenous people either ate wild meat or animals that roamed and ate wild food. And they certainly weren't creating large amounts of toxic waste, using medicines, or dumping things into water supplies. You can still probably find meat these days that is somewhat not affecting anything at all, but you should make that point instead of just saying meat in general cause most of it is having a bad impact on health and environment
I know that happens with vegetarian food also, but im just alluding to meat eating and good stewardship
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
pboy said:
im not getting emotional, I think you might be about that analogy
the reason I don't want to argue with you is because there would never be a concensus and you already made up your mind, but I guess ill post one more thing

Theres a difference between eating meat because you have to and because you want to, most indigenous people either ate wild meat or animals that roamed and ate wild food. And they certainly weren't creating large amounts of toxic waste, using medicines, or dumping things into water supplies. You can still probably find meat these days that is somewhat not affecting anything at all, but you should make that point instead of just saying meat in general cause most of it is having a bad impact on health and environment
I didn't say you were getting emotional. Rather I see this as being an emotional subject for you. Would you say that were true?

I've not gotten emotional over the analogy, except perhaps for my initial surprise and subsequent "Good grief."

We don't have to agree to have a discussion and calling me closed minded ("you already made up your mind")
is not a purposeful effort at creating consensus. I'm not trying to change your mind and win a useless argument pboy, why would you wish to change mine?

I have simply been arguing against your claim that meat eaters are spiritually inferior to non meat eaters.

It would be helpful to lay a foundation for having different viewpoints being expressed without having to contend with attacks upon character for I've grown weary of dodging a few bullets. I think that is a worthy goal and common ground to consider.

And interestingly enough, your "one more thing" provides an opportunity to build consensus and that gives me hope.

Your "one more thing" makes the exact same point I have been making all along. It's not the meat that's the problem. It's the utter contempt and lack of stewardship of our food supply that's the problem.

Agribusiness is as much a problem as the slaughterhouses. None of it is working.
 
OP
B

barbwirehouse

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
163
pboy said:
4peatssake said:
pboy said:
if you cant tell the diference...I mean come on man. Plants are obviously alive, but you can ask a kid to uproot a plant and they will with at most little hesitation. You tell them to kill an animal its way different and they likely wont do it. Its obviously different to your senses, and conscience
Good grief! :shock:

We are talking about animals and plants as nourishment for human bodies, not encouraging children to kill animals or to destroy plants for that matter either.

You missed entirely the point about proper stewardship and how to be in wondrous unity with all of life as indigenous people have done for countless generations, at least those who have kept close to their tribal wisdom.

Do you blame lions for killing their prey? Should they too eat only fruit, or just humans should?
There is a circle of life.

I was making an analogy to make a point, its pretty bad if you cant see that
Lions are lions, humans are humans, theres no comparison
being a proper steward doesn't mean blindly eating meat because it tastes good or because you are buying it from someone else doing all the work and slaughtering. You think buying average meat at a grocery store or restaurant is being a good steward? Im not even going to get into it with you because it would be a waste of time, being a good steward extends way beyond just what we eat also

Come on pboy, you're completely missing the point! :lol:

By stewardship, peatsake is talking about proper management of animals. Current farming practices such as battery cages, loads of hormone & antibiotic usage, animal abuse, grain-fed beef, etc, etc are clearly not sustainable, ethical or good stewardship . :ugeek:

Animal products are good (imo) but the management of most of the animals are very clearly not and it needs to change. :cry: I'm not a hypocrite, I buy real free range eggs (most say free range but have absurd population densities like 10,000+/hectre), I don't eat fast food or at restaurants, I buy grass-fed meat, local dairy, etc, etc. I try to do my best.
 

mt_dreams

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Messages
620
Removing the nutrient aspect of questioning to eat meat or not, leads the conversation into an observational & perception based area in which there are no right or wrong answers.

You can't talk about ***t filled rivers, or antibiotics in drinking water, etc, without including things like playing God by growing GMO life forms, or spraying poison on the plant kingdom to kill off every life form living on the land except the life form that is a sellable commodity, and so on. A discussion should only be b/w the most humane way to grow both plants & animals, or b/w how we grow both currently ... not the best of one vs the worst of another.

How important is it to be able kill with my bare hands when asking questions regarding if eating meat is ethical or not? If someone could not tolerate being a garbageman, does that mean it would be unethical for that person to create garbage? I know, not the greatest comparison, but obviously there is a large portion of our species that does not have a problem with killing animals with their hands. And this goes for lots of jobs out there that many people could not do themselves.

Bringing up children having to kill animals probably did not have much relevance as children have a very animal oriented brain, so it would be obvious that most would not enjoy watching an animal die in front of them. This kind of brain is also why children often have dreams involving animals, whereas adults for the most part have dreams regarding grownup issues.

I think one of the reasons why it's easier to kill a plant species compared to an animal is b/c we see aspects of ourselves in animals. So, yes, it's more difficult to kill something that has limbs, eyes, a brain like ours, etc. But just b/c we associate more closely with that death (as it triggers the idea of death on a more intimate level within us,) that does not make it any more important of a death than something from another kingdom. Exempting an entire life kingdom by choice when deciding what to eat may be perceived as suggesting that one sees that kingdom being above the rest.

Too much talk about death. Don't we know that without death, there would be no life. I don't dwell solely on the death of the animal, rather I focus on the fact that animal got a chance to live. It may have not been a perfect situation, heck we humans are in that same boat, but it was life nonetheless. So in order to live, we must at some point die. This is where pasture raising in a truly humane way is inline with good grace.

For me it's all about the land of milk & honey ... and if we eat the animals when their time comes, it doesn't seem like a bad way to shuttle that energy into another life form.
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
I think the reason kids care and most adults don't is because they became desperate and bought into groupthink where as children don't realize the magnitude of the situation and still have high hopes and ideals. And theres nothing wrong with using emotions when we are talking about whether or not to kill sentient beings with a brain, in fact its probably the right thing to do, or else it just means you've become numb and that's a dangerous thing
 

lindsay

Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
973
Location
United States
I was vegetarian (and almost vegan - meaning I never ate eggs are rarely ate much dairy) for many years. I wasn't a good vegetarian - didn't concentrate on getting good protein and nutrition, which led to health issues in my late 20's (something I am now dealing with). In a desperate measure, I decided to eat SOME meat again, but decided to focus on humanely raised meat (pasture is always preferred). I'm lucky because I live in a state with lots of farms (surprisingly) and I can get good meat both from local places and at Wholefoods. But most meat makes me feel not so great unless it's properly cooked (which usually means rare). However, just adding more high quality protein into my diet has helped my mental facilities, so I would never advocate being vegan on that account - vegetarian is far more plausible, but pescatarian is probably optimal if you don't want to eat land animals. I prefer fish to most meat, but do feel better eating occasional rare cooked beef and soups made bones/chicken carcasses. Cheese has been the protein source I feel best eating - hard and semi-hard cheeses though. I think all animal products are beneficial in certain quantities, it's just that most people only consume muscle meats and they eat a LOT of muscle meats, which is both wasteful and unhealthy. If people started purchasing pasture raised good quality meats, there would be less useless animal slaughter and the animals would get to live better and it would be more environmentally friendly.

That being said, I had a friend who went vegan two years ago and has given it up since because her immune system was weak and she felt herself needing eggs and dairy - and she has recently started eating fish again. I recall talking to a nutritionist who aligns with RP and she said it's much easier for men to be vegetarian or vegan than for women - probably due to the protein and liver function (since women tend to have more estrogen, they need to have a well functioning liver). I'm terrible at getting enough protein, but feel better getting even slightly more, I just don't feel great always eating many of the available meat sources, aside from raw fish and rare cooked or cured meats. But everyone is different in this respect.
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
pboy said:
And theres nothing wrong with using emotions when we are talking about whether or not to kill sentient beings with a brain, in fact its probably the right thing to do, or else it just means you've become numb and that's a dangerous thing
No one said it was "wrong" to be emotional.
I would say, however, that it is less than ideal in any situation and speaking and/or acting on emotion is what is potentially dangerous and harmful to oneself and others.

Being in emotional equanimity is balanced.
Being emotional is not in balance.

It is not "wrong" to not be in balance either. It is a clue to what is going on within oneself and provides an opportunity to self correct and get back into balance.
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
mt_dreams said:
Removing the nutrient aspect of questioning to eat meat or not, leads the conversation into an observational & perception based area in which there are no right or wrong answers.

You can't talk about s*** filled rivers, or antibiotics in drinking water, etc, without including things like playing God by growing GMO life forms, or spraying poison on the plant kingdom to kill off every life form living on the land except the life form that is a sellable commodity, and so on. A discussion should only be b/w the most humane way to grow both plants & animals, or b/w how we grow both currently ... not the best of one vs the worst of another.

How important is it to be able kill with my bare hands when asking questions regarding if eating meat is ethical or not? If someone could not tolerate being a garbageman, does that mean it would be unethical for that person to create garbage? I know, not the greatest comparison, but obviously there is a large portion of our species that does not have a problem with killing animals with their hands. And this goes for lots of jobs out there that many people could not do themselves.

Bringing up children having to kill animals probably did not have much relevance as children have a very animal oriented brain, so it would be obvious that most would not enjoy watching an animal die in front of them. This kind of brain is also why children often have dreams involving animals, whereas adults for the most part have dreams regarding grownup issues.

I think one of the reasons why it's easier to kill a plant species compared to an animal is b/c we see aspects of ourselves in animals. So, yes, it's more difficult to kill something that has limbs, eyes, a brain like ours, etc. But just b/c we associate more closely with that death (as it triggers the idea of death on a more intimate level within us,) that does not make it any more important of a death than something from another kingdom. Exempting an entire life kingdom by choice when deciding what to eat may be perceived as suggesting that one sees that kingdom being above the rest.

Too much talk about death. Don't we know that without death, there would be no life. I don't dwell solely on the death of the animal, rather I focus on the fact that animal got a chance to live. It may have not been a perfect situation, heck we humans are in that same boat, but it was life nonetheless. So in order to live, we must at some point die. This is where pasture raising in a truly humane way is inline with good grace.

For me it's all about the land of milk & honey ... and if we eat the animals when their time comes, it doesn't seem like a bad way to shuttle that energy into another life form.
Well said. :1
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
dude you don't even make sense, what a waste of time. Go ahead and do what you want, you lack courage to actually face or speak or try anything, I know this, its pointless for me to talk here. Its kind of a shame how this forum has that pervasive weird authoritarian vibe from many members. Like I always try to add value but am realizing that im better off just listening to peat interviews and reading his work and not even bothering discussing things here, I don't think many people even really have taken the time to do the same, let alone done concise and dedicated self expirimentation
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
pboy said:
dude you don't even make sense, what a waste of time. Go ahead and do what you want, you lack courage to actually face or speak or try anything, I know this, its pointless for me to talk here. Its kind of a shame how this forum has that pervasive weird authoritarian vibe from many members. Like I always try to add value but am realizing that im better off just listening to peat interviews and reading his work and not even bothering discussing things here, I don't think many people even really have taken the time to do the same, let alone done concise and dedicated self expirimentation
You've just proven my point. :roll:
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
na, you've proven mine. Way to be a crab in the bucket, I hope you have fun down there...I apologize to the actual cool people here, but people like the above are not worthy of time or attention in their current state so im not gonna post here anymore

and might I humbly suggest a you have large serving of prune juice for dinner tonight
 

lindsay

Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
973
Location
United States
Calm down everyone. Calm down. If you all can't understand another person's point of view (or don't want to) and think they are inferior for thinking that way, just count to ten and say to yourself, it's not worth my time arguing and stressing over it.
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
lindsay said:
Calm down everyone. Calm down. If you all can't understand another person's point of view (or don't want to) and think they are inferior for thinking that way, just count to ten and say to yourself, it's not worth my time arguing and stressing over it.
I think observing conflict and what is being said has an inherent value provided there are no personal attacks.
In this case, there have been numerous ad hominen arguments but it affords an opportunity to be in discomfort and observe the behavior of others.

I know how and why I positioned myself to be in this situation. It felt wrong to not challenge the statement that non meat eaters are spiritually superior to meat eaters. To not challenge that assertion felt like tacit agreement. The consequences and ad hominen attacks were worth it to me, however disagreeable they've become. I'm hardly a crab in the pot and I don't much care for prune juice either. :lol:

It is not an easy issue to discuss as you can see but important to perhaps consider engaging in if humanity has any hope of becoming proper stewards of the earth.

I mean how can we have any hope as a race of beings if we dismiss another human being as worthless in defense of an argument to not eat meat.
 

lindsay

Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2013
Messages
973
Location
United States
4peatssake said:
lindsay said:
Calm down everyone. Calm down. If you all can't understand another person's point of view (or don't want to) and think they are inferior for thinking that way, just count to ten and say to yourself, it's not worth my time arguing and stressing over it.
I think observing conflict and what is being said has an inherent value provided there are no personal attacks.
In this case, there have been numerous ad hominen arguments but it affords an opportunity to be in discomfort and observe the behavior of others.

I know how and why I positioned myself to be in this situation. It felt wrong to not challenge the statement that non meat eaters are spiritually superior to meat eaters. To not challenge that assertion felt like tacit agreement. The consequences and ad hominen attacks were worth it to me, however disagreeable they've become. I'm hardly a crab in the pot and I don't much care for prune juice either. :lol:

It is not an easy issue to discuss as you can see but important to perhaps consider engaging in if humanity has any hope of becoming proper stewards of the earth.

I mean how can we have any hope as a race of beings if we dismiss another human being as worthless in defense of an argument to not eat meat.

Sorry - I just felt like there was a lot of yelling going on.....

In any case, I hope there was no hard feelings with anyone. We all have different opinions.
 

4peatssake

Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
2,055
Age
62
lindsay said:
4peatssake said:
lindsay said:
Calm down everyone. Calm down. If you all can't understand another person's point of view (or don't want to) and think they are inferior for thinking that way, just count to ten and say to yourself, it's not worth my time arguing and stressing over it.
I think observing conflict and what is being said has an inherent value provided there are no personal attacks.
In this case, there have been numerous ad hominen arguments but it affords an opportunity to be in discomfort and observe the behavior of others.

I know how and why I positioned myself to be in this situation. It felt wrong to not challenge the statement that non meat eaters are spiritually superior to meat eaters. To not challenge that assertion felt like tacit agreement. The consequences and ad hominen attacks were worth it to me, however disagreeable they've become. I'm hardly a crab in the pot and I don't much care for prune juice either. :lol:

It is not an easy issue to discuss as you can see but important to perhaps consider engaging in if humanity has any hope of becoming proper stewards of the earth.

I mean how can we have any hope as a race of beings if we dismiss another human being as worthless in defense of an argument to not eat meat.

Sorry - I just felt like there was a lot of yelling going on.....

In any case, I hope there was no hard feelings with anyone. We all have different opinions.
We all have different opinions, yes, and a right to express them here provided we do not harm others and follow the forum rules.

I didn't observe any yelling per se but there certainly were numerous ad hominen arguments which do violate forum rules. I personally let it go as it's not my practice as a moderator to put someone on moderation cue who is launching insults or ad hominen attacks upon me, nor address it with management unless I see that it's harming others or the integrity of the forum. I felt it was isolated, manageable and rather eye-opening.

There were hard feelings. It is right there in the posts. That's reality. Running away and/or wishing it were not so isn't doing the more difficult work of perceiving the true cause of the eruption and doing the work to repair the damage.

I've yet to see a balance argument demonstrating the spiritual superiority of non meat eaters over meat eaters.

Instead I've been told, among a few other things, that I'm a worthless crab in the pot and should calm down. :lol:

Where is the "added value" in that? ;)
 

mt_dreams

Member
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Messages
620
What does it say about human emotion when we can feel immense emotion for a handful of humans dying in once place (france), yet very little emotion for a human death toll over 2000 on the very same day in a different geographical location (baka)? Emotion is not always a good barometer on objective injustice, be it human or otherwise.

I'm still stuck on what to do if we are not eating into the 3 billion cows, sheep & goats, and the 20 billion chicken populations. Would we get mad if they decide to migrate through our plots of land used for growing plant food? On the flip side, doing a massive population reduction to manageable numbers would appear to have an ethical dilemma of not allowing the animals to do the one thing they consider the most important in life, that being reproduction. Will we need to separate them for an entire generation to carry this out, or will we go all Godly on them and sterilize 90%? Do we have any records of sterile female animals throwing themselves off cliffs due to the fact they could not conceive? And who's going to teach them about the art of migration? Do cow whisperers exist? How will they get around the fence? Will they have to go through immigration? What to do what to do
 
OP
B

barbwirehouse

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
163
mt_dreams said:
I'm still stuck on what to do if we are not eating into the 3 billion cows, sheep & goats, and the 20 billion chicken populations. Would we get mad if they decide to migrate through our plots of land used for growing plant food? On the flip side, doing a massive population reduction to manageable numbers would appear to have an ethical dilemma of not allowing the animals to do the one thing they consider the most important in life, that being reproduction. Will we need to separate them for an entire generation to carry this out, or will we go all Godly on them and sterilize 90%? Do we have any records of sterile female animals throwing themselves off cliffs due to the fact they could not conceive? And who's going to teach them about the art of migration? Do cow whisperers exist? How will they get around the fence? Will they have to go through immigration? What to do what to do

Here's what a vegan thinks on your point here

http://youtu.be/-15VnhaRmJU?t=26s
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
I've been trying to learn and apply principles for avoiding disrespect in my own life (ie trying not to do it, and sometimes rejecting it when other people do it. I don't claim to always get it right). I'm sure others have other ways of thinking about this.

All involved in the preceding conflict could consider reviewing their posts and weeding out the disrespect (with the edit button), both to stop the disrespect from being there in an ongoing way, and so that future readers can get cleaner access to the good thinking interspersed in here.

The way it seems to me is, if you are saying things like this, there is a good chance you are being disrespectful:
- telling someone what their emotions are. You can express empathy by making a guess, but understand that it is just a guess unless the other person confirms.
- telling someone that their feelings (actual or imagined) are wrong.
- name-calling
- judging others as generally incapable/incompetent (It is true that everyone has some things that we do not currently have the skills etc to do well. But no one needs to be told they are incapale of ever doing things.)
- judging someone based on guessing their motivation or intentions (It can be reasonable to sometimes judge someones particular behaviour to be unacceptable.)
- judging others as generally ignorant (it is of course true that we all have larger areas of ignorance than knowledge, but we also all have some knowledge and good thinking in some areas, and we all can learn from each other.)
- dismissing someone's thinking on the basis that either they themselves or all their thinking is inferior
- judging someone as spiritually unaware etc
- eyerolling or similar expressions in text
- telling untruths about someone


Amongst peers, there are a couple of others that can sometimes be dodgy, depending on content and context, so it's good to take care if you are using them:

- unsolicited advice, 'should's, imperatives - In this forum context, I tend to think, for the purposes of the forum, that people posting are implicitly if not explicitly inviting other's thoughts about how they see things and ideas about what they could do. But our job is to share ideas, not give orders. I think there are places where imperatives make sense, too, e.g. 'stop doing that to me/my friend/my car/the commons/etc'.

- forcing someone to listen to unsolicited lecturing etc from an assumed position of superiority
In the context of the forum, I have tended to assume that it's generally OK to share our thinking (not disrespect etc, but our actually thinking about how reality is and what we can do with that) on topics in the scope of the forum, in the appropriate place, since we are not forcing anyone to read our posts. But I'm not sure if I'm right about this, and sometimes people react emotionally to these kinds of posts, and it's possible that is because they feel disrespected by them.

So, there's my ramble - not sure whether it constitutes a disrespectful lecture, or a useful addition to our collective thinking. :)
 

tara

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2014
Messages
10,368
I don't think omnivores are necessarily spiritually or ethically inferior to vegetarians or vegans.
I do think that it is reasonable that some people choose to consider the diffferences in nervous system between various life forms when they make food decisions.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom