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Ethical Claims Of The Vegan Diet

barbwirehouse

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Where vegans make these claims

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-F8whzJfJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWD1Zze5Qo4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-b ... -diabetes/

Some examples of claims

Eating animal products causes atherosclerosis

Every vitamin, mineral, that exists is from the Earth. Stop filtering your vitamins through another animal and eat plants instead

The worst things you can eat are cholesterol, saturated fats, trans fat and animal protein

Animal protein is way too acidic for the human body

It's absurb to drink another species' milk after you've been weened off human milk
 

tara

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I have not read or watched the sources you linked, but some quick thoughts:

PUFAs and low metabolism may have more to do with atherosclerosis. You can get both those just as easily on a vegan diet too.

Filtering vitamins and minerals through other animals can in some cases reduce defensive phytotoxins.

Ray has described lots of reasons why saturated fats are safer than unsaturated fats. If you haven't read the articles on fats on his web site I'd recommend them. Ruminants (or their intestinal microbiota) convert a lot of the PUFA in their food into saturated fat, which is one of the good things about eating ruminants and milk.

Meat has too high a phosphate to calcium ratio if eaten in large quantities without balancing calcium-rich foods. But so are grains and legumes.Milk has a better phosphate to calcium ratio.

'Absurd' isn't an argument. There are many populations that have been reasonably healthy drinking a lot of milk, though it doesn't suit everyone.
 

mt_dreams

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I cringed listening to 15 min from the last video, but this is clearly a vegan activist spreading ethical opinions on something that even the Buddhists have come to terms with. Maybe later in the video he starts talking real science, but I would suggest not watching videos of this kind, as they never really go into the true health aspects, and rely mostly on opinionated ethics, and gruesome visuals. This is the same technique which was used by crisco a hundred years ago to get people to eat their science oil instead of tallow.

Going vegan will not save the animals. The only reason cows, pigs, chickens are alive is so they can be eaten. If no one was eating them, then they would not be alive, as they are not wild animals, and no one would want to upkeep the costs to feed all of them in sanctuaries. Here in North America, no one would tolerate cows living wild (like in India), and the chickens & pigs would end up being food for the wolves, coyotes & wild cats, making those animal populations grow too large for the population to safely tolerate. One has to change their mindset on life & death. Would you rather have none of these animals around, thus preventing them the opportunity to spend some time living on this earth, just to avoid the fact that you will at some point kill the animal so you can eat it. Everything living becomes food for some else. Just b/c we put ourselves in boxes when we die, doesn't mean that the rest of life on earth doesn't understand this.

The key is to eat less, as we are overeating meat. If we eat less, maybe we can justify spending a little more on the meat so that animal could have been brought up on a pastured farm like we had been doing for 5-10 thousand years prior to the last little while.

Next time a vegan says they can not tolerate killing for their food, remind them that 1000s of deaths & displacement occur every time a wild patch is plowed over in order to grow food, so death is inevitable (factory raised meat is contributing to this problem with its soy fields, but pasture raised does not). Seeing miles and miles of soy, corn & wheat crops with nothing living other than the soy, corn & wheat due to pesticide usage, is not my idea of saving life. Animals are not the only kingdom living on this planet.
 

tara

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Another point on the nutritional aspect.
People who have high metabolisms and good health, can generally convert beta-carotene from plants into the active form of vitamin A that we need. But some people with struggling health, low metabolism, and/or insufficient B12 (maybe there are other factors, but these are the ones I've heard of), have difficulty making this conversion. If they try to get all their vitamin A from a high carotene plant diet, they can get problems from insufficient vit-A, from excessive unsaturated carotenes in circulation (indicated by yellow/orange palms, callouses).
Vit-B12 is notoriously difficult to get enough of on a vegan diet, and there are many reports of people getting deficiency problems because of this.
Both vit-A and vit-B12 can be eaten in animal products.
 

barbwirehouse

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Thanks for the replies tara and mt_dream. On the nutritonal aspect of, I was hoping you'd watch the nutritionfacts video. The owner and narrator, Dr. Greger, purports that all his videos are backed by "science" and advocates for an entirely animal product free vegan diet, which he calls instead of veganism, a "plant based diet".

Eggs are bad

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/debunki ... try-myths/

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-the ... g-studies/

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/who-say ... y-or-safe/

Saturated fat is bad

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-sat ... he-public/

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/the-sat ... p-to-fail/

Coconut oil is bad

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/does-co ... -arteries/

http://nutritionfacts.org/2013/07/30/is ... d-for-you/

Dietary cholesterol is bad

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/cholest ... cer-cells/

Milk is bad

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/why-do- ... wer-twins/

Coffee is bad

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/coffee- ... -function/

Go vegan, it's healthier

http://nutritionfacts.org/video/plant-b ... -diabetes/

The list goes on... and on... and on...

On the ethical aspect, I agree mt_dreams. We're all going to die any ways and somebody is going to eat us, I don't see anything wrong ethically with eating meat from well-treated and humanely killed animals.
 

mt_dreams

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My brother has been vegan for many years, and has sent me over a hundred videos from Dr. Gregor, so I am familiar with him. I appreciate some of the findings Dr. Gregor has done on antioxidants, but it also seems that he bases his ideals mostly on antioxidant effect. So he recommends molasses & date sugar over honey, even though the molasses might be high in heavy metals and/or its digestive complications, and the date sugars estrogen content. Or he recommends green tea over coffee due to antioxidant levels, even though it is well known that many people can not tolerate the lectins in green tea.

As we know, many studies over the last 40+ years have not been done in the name of science, but rather to confirm a hypothesis that is opposite of what they are trying to condemn, based on who is funding the project. Examples would be that the soy industry funds studies that will end up showing how bad animal milk is, or the seed oil companies will fund studies showing how bad cholesterol/eggs/saturated fats are, etc. Then you have Doctors siting different studies, depending on their own inherent beliefs. So you will need to make a judgement call when listening to hypothesis based on recent studies.

There's no point to eating a plant based diet if your particular body does not absorb nutrients from plants very well, or if the lectins & oxilates in the plants give you negative responses. This also applies to say someone who eats beef, yet does not have the proper hcl & bile production to carry out the digestion. The same goes basically for all foods. Ideally you want to negate these questions by first understanding how your body is functioning (thyroid function, estrogen levels, body temp, nutrient levels, light absorption, digestive function, immune capability, etc)
 

pboy

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theres a lot of benefits of a plant based diet, but it can be equally or nearly as toxic as a meat based diet, it all depends on how you go about each one. Its definitely better for your spiritual self. You still have to avoid toxins and get all the essential nutrients, which is usually a lot harder as a vegan and comes with a lot more gas and chewing
 

4peatssake

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pboy said:
theres a lot of benefits of a plant based diet. Its definitely better for your spiritual self.
There is nothing spiritually superior to killing a plant over an animal.

A plant and animal both have conscious awareness so killing either one is the same. Plants don't scream though so the this is poorly understood. Rather, plants release toxins as a defense when harvested for food.

In many spiritual traditions, humans, who have consciousness, are considered stewards of the earth and the plants and animals are under their care and provide for their physical well being. The problem lies in stewardship.

Movies like Avatar are attempts to portray proper stewardship.

Yeah I know off topic. :lol:
 

pboy

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if you cant tell the diference...I mean come on man. Plants are obviously alive, but you can ask a kid to uproot a plant and they will with at most little hesitation. You tell them to kill an animal its way different and they likely wont do it. Its obviously different to your senses, and conscience
 

mt_dreams

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pboy said:
if you cant tell the diference...I mean come on man. Plants are obviously alive, but you can ask a kid to uproot a plant and they will with at most little hesitation. You tell them to kill an animal its way different and they likely wont do it. Its obviously different to your senses, and conscience

This may seem rational from a vegan perspective, as my vegan brother has the same sediments, but not everyone is as cut and dry as that. Case in point, my friends daughter would loose her mind if she witnessed anyone uprooting one of her many indoor & outdoor flowers. So she seems to not enjoy death in any form. Another is one I personally went through where I had agreed to help take down a dead tree weaved within living trees. Then without notice, the male with the chainsaw in his hand irrationally decided to cut down a perfectly living tree without talking his plan through first. As the living tree fell to the ground I had a panic attack, something I hadn't had in years.

It's all perspective. I'm sure the Buddhists are profoundly grateful for the creation of lactating animals, and the spiritual aspect of actually relying on another mammal species other than homo sapiens for long term survival.
 

pboy

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I don't or wouldn't ever kill a plant either, unless I needed the root as a backup food source. Even pruning herbs I don't like to do that much, but its better, MUCH better than killing the plant. Fruit is the most graceful thing. But none of these even compare to killing an animal....I mean I might rather someone kill a rabbit then kill a hundreds year old huge redwood tree. It does have to do with magnitude. But Im pretty sure everyone here would rather eat a potato then have to kill an animal they raised, and if not, then I must just be different and don't understand. I also think theres a lot of weakness and denial in people.

Having said all of this...its actually a profound difference it makes in your state of being and how you feel about yourself when you respect all life, plants and animals, and realize the value and what it took for a tree to come to how it is. I think we should be living in a way that goes with the way of nature and only eat what we have to, it being the least harmful to either plant of animal. The clear cutting that goes on in cities is saddening, and actually has a negative impact on the health of all organisms in the environment. Just being under the canopy of trees actually shifts mood slightly if your sensitive enough to notice. Its just good and makes you feel good to know you are doing the least harm and letting life of all kinds grow live and act in their natural way the best you can without starving yourself (society and most people currently do a really inefficient bad job of this, I used to be like that most of my life not really knowing or caring, and once I started caring, it basically alone removed or greatly took away depression)
 

barbwirehouse

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mt_dreams said:
My brother has been vegan for many years, and has sent me over a hundred videos from Dr. Gregor, so I am familiar with him. I appreciate some of the findings Dr. Gregor has done on antioxidants, but it also seems that he bases his ideals mostly on antioxidant effect. So he recommends molasses & date sugar over honey, even though the molasses might be high in heavy metals and/or its digestive complications, and the date sugars estrogen content. Or he recommends green tea over coffee due to antioxidant levels, even though it is well known that many people can not tolerate the lectins in green tea.

As we know, many studies over the last 40+ years have not been done in the name of science, but rather to confirm a hypothesis that is opposite of what they are trying to condemn, based on who is funding the project. Examples would be that the soy industry funds studies that will end up showing how bad animal milk is, or the seed oil companies will fund studies showing how bad cholesterol/eggs/saturated fats are, etc. Then you have Doctors siting different studies, depending on their own inherent beliefs. So you will need to make a judgement call when listening to hypothesis based on recent studies.

There's no point to eating a plant based diet if your particular body does not absorb nutrients from plants very well, or if the lectins & oxilates in the plants give you negative responses. This also applies to say someone who eats beef, yet does not have the proper hcl & bile production to carry out the digestion. The same goes basically for all foods. Ideally you want to negate these questions by first understanding how your body is functioning (thyroid function, estrogen levels, body temp, nutrient levels, light absorption, digestive function, immune capability, etc)

Yes, Greger is clearly biased. :roll: :roll:

I don't think there is a single animal product that he actually thinks isn't a negative net health benefit. :lol:

pboy said:
theres a lot of benefits of a plant based diet, but it can be equally or nearly as toxic as a meat based diet, it all depends on how you go about each one. Its definitely better for your spiritual self. You still have to avoid toxins and get all the essential nutrients, which is usually a lot harder as a vegan and comes with a lot more gas and chewing

Benefits like what?
 

pboy

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you avoid a lot of carcinogens from muscle meat and toxic meat additives, and potential for infection due to food poisoning goes way down, parasites and all that
 

barbwirehouse

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pboy said:
you avoid a lot of carcinogens from muscle meat and toxic meat additives, and potential for infection due to food poisoning goes way down, parasites and all that

Isn't that solved by getting good meat instead of crappy factory farm grain-fed junk? :studying
 

pboy

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it helps a lot

I dunno about taurine johns, I think if you get an abundance of protein youll be fine still...do you think its an amount thing or ratio thing? ( just asking about taurine...not based on veganism, as a vegan its extremely hard to actually get enough adequate protein because most is at best like 50-75% bioavailable)

im not advocating a vegan diet im just saying that it has some potential benefits over eating meat

you guys can obviously do your own research, experimenting, and deep thinking, and do what you think is best
 

4peatssake

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pboy said:
if you cant tell the diference...I mean come on man. Plants are obviously alive, but you can ask a kid to uproot a plant and they will with at most little hesitation. You tell them to kill an animal its way different and they likely wont do it. Its obviously different to your senses, and conscience
Good grief! :shock:

We are talking about animals and plants as nourishment for human bodies, not encouraging children to kill animals or to destroy plants for that matter either.

You missed entirely the point about proper stewardship and how to be in wondrous unity with all of life as indigenous people have done for countless generations, at least those who have kept close to their tribal wisdom.

Do you blame lions for killing their prey? Should they too eat only fruit, or just humans should?
There is a circle of life.
 

BingDing

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False:B12

1) It's absurd to drink another species' milk after you've been weened off human milk
2) It's absurd to say that it's absurd to drink another species' milk after you've been weened off human milk

Neither are true, probative, or worth thinking about, IMHO.
 

johns74

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i think taurine is an amount thing, not sure if ratio

you can get taurine on a vegan diet if you drink redbull
 

pboy

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4peatssake said:
pboy said:
if you cant tell the diference...I mean come on man. Plants are obviously alive, but you can ask a kid to uproot a plant and they will with at most little hesitation. You tell them to kill an animal its way different and they likely wont do it. Its obviously different to your senses, and conscience
Good grief! :shock:

We are talking about animals and plants as nourishment for human bodies, not encouraging children to kill animals or to destroy plants for that matter either.

You missed entirely the point about proper stewardship and how to be in wondrous unity with all of life as indigenous people have done for countless generations, at least those who have kept close to their tribal wisdom.

Do you blame lions for killing their prey? Should they too eat only fruit, or just humans should?
There is a circle of life.

I was making an analogy to make a point, its pretty bad if you cant see that
Lions are lions, humans are humans, theres no comparison
being a proper steward doesn't mean blindly eating meat because it tastes good or because you are buying it from someone else doing all the work and slaughtering. You think buying average meat at a grocery store or restaurant is being a good steward? Im not even going to get into it with you because it would be a waste of time, being a good steward extends way beyond just what we eat also
 

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