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estrogen

Ardina

Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
11
Helo,
My name is Ardina and I'm from the Netherlands.
After one year Weston Price eating..zero sugar and no fruit I found this forum and will try Ray Peat style.. :D

I have a guestion about estrogen.
When I came in menopause in 2005 my world felt apart..I had 24/7 hot flashes.
Doctors here in Holland are not so willing to subscribe HRT..they tell you just to take birth controle.which I did not
wanted.
So..I sweated till 2010..and I had a heart-attack.

Feeling very missareble..I finally found a doctor who was willing to check my hormones.
At that time I had zero estrogen..but progesteron 5.72 Nmol which is in the lutealfase range.
So this new doctor prescribed a estrogen gel (bio identical)..
I use this since march 2011...for 25 days a minth..and the last 10 days I also use progesteron gel.

Now my hormones are in better balance..
Estrogen is 88.1 pmol/l
progesteron is 2.23 nmol/l

But now I read here things about estrogen dominance..
Do I have to stop with the estrogen-gel????

In advance sorry for my english writing..not my first language.

Ardina
 

Ardina

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
11
@ Lucy,

I feel fine..since I take the estrogen-gell.. Everything is better in balance now.
Normal in menopause is that first the progesteron lowers..en then the estrogen.
and that did not happen to me.

Ardina.
 

Lucy

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Messages
70
As far as I understand, Peat views estrogen as something harmful, even though it can feel helpful at first. Analogy would be taking heroin which feels great but is damaging in the long term. I wouldn't use estrogen on myself for this reason, no matter how much it helped. My Mom reports estrogen taken vaginally in very small doses took away her urinary incontinence, and when I wrote to Peat to ask about it he replied:

Its effects on the urethra might help with incontinence, but it can cause problems with the bladder muscle, and cystitis.
 

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peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
RAY PEAT's Newsletter 09/2012
These are only a few excerpts from the newsletter. If you want to read the whole text, please send money to Ray Peat. It's cheep enough.

Have you read any of his articles regarding estrogen? Here are a few of them:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/na ... gens.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging ... rone.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/coron ... rone.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ti ... ogen.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ru486.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... osis.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... ress.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... ncer.shtml

"Around the time that menstruation and fertility are ending, certain biological problems are more likely to occur. Between the ages of 50 and 55, about 60% of women expenence repeated episodes o f flushing and sweating. Asthma, migraine, epilepsy, arthritis, varicose veins, aneurysms, urticaria, reduced lung function, hyper- tension, strokes, and interstitial colitis are some of the other problems that often begin or get worse at the menopause, but that normally aren't considered to be causally related to it."

"When the estrogen industry began concentrat- ing on women ofmenopausal age (after the disas- trous years of selling it as a fertility drug), "estrogen replacement" therapy was promoted as a cure for the problems associated with menopause, including hot flashes, which were explained as the result of a deficiency of estrogen. However, in recent years, the phrase "estrogen deficiency" has begun to be replaced by the phrase "estrogen withdrawal"."

"Associated with this change of terminology, there has been a recognition that changes in the temperature regulating system in the brain, rather
than changes in the amount of estrogen, are responsible for the hot flashes, but mainstream medicine has carefully avoided the investigation of this subject. The effects of estrogen on the thermoregulatory system are very clear, but the standard medical view is that the physiology ofhot flashes simply isn't understood."

"But there was no evidence that women experiencing hot flashes were deficient in estrogen (in fact, there was evidence that they weren't), and there was evidence that hot flashes began when the first menstrual period was missed, which coincided with, and resulted from, a failure to produce a functional corpus luteum, preventing the produc- tion of a normal amount of progesterone. But the
silly old doctrine ofdeficiency is often restated by professors, as if there was no doubt about it (for example, Rance, 2009; Bhattacharya and Keating, 2012)."

"One of the animal "models" used to study hot flashes is morphine withdrawal. The model seems relevant to hwnan hot flashes, because estrogen can stop the morphine withdrawal flushing, and estrogen's acute and chronic effects on the brain-
pituitary-ovary system involve the endorphins and the opioidergic nerves (Merchenthaler. et al.,
1998; Holinka, et al., 2008)."

"In young rats, sudden morphine withdrawal
caused by injecting the anti-opiate naloxone, causes the tail skin to flush, with a temperature increase of a few degrees, 'and causes the core body temperature to fall slightly. However, old animals respond to the withdrawal in two different ways. One group responded to the naloxone with an exaggerated flushing and decrease of core temperature. The other group of old rats, which already had a lower body temperature, didn't flush at all (Simpkins, 1994). I think this provides an
insight into the reason that menopausal treatment with estrogen can relieve some hot flashes-- estrogen treatment might create a flush resistant state similar to that of the cooler old animals in Simpkins' experiment.
It has been known for a long time, from studies in animals and people, that estrogen lowers body temperature, and that this involves a tendency to increase blood flow to the skin in response to a given environmental temperature, that is. the temperature "set-point" is lowered by estrogen. Besides increasing heat loss, estrogen decreases heat production."
 

Ardina

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
11
Hello Peatarian,

Thanks for writing.
I read most of the articels from Ray Peat according estrogen.
Also that he thinks its not usefull to measure female hormones in the blood..but how do I know then??

After my heart-attack in 2010 I found a orthomoliculair docter here in the Netherlands who did bloodwork
on all my hormones and its seems that I had high progesteron...wich did not protect me from having my
heart-attack ;-( and no estrogen.

Since reading here on the forum..and all your posts I searched here in Europe for a better progesteron
creme/spray and I ordered this one
http://www.super-smart.eu/en--Endocrine ... 8-ml--0516

Last week..I quit the estrogen-gel and used the progesteronspray every day.
Now..sweating like a horse..and my temp. is falling from 37.1 to 36...
I'm feeling very unhappy..also all the eczema on my face comes back. :shock:

After my heart-attack I was send home with a lot of medicines..which included asprine..And I reacted very bad
on this.
The aspirine made me sudden deaf.
Now I try to use it again..1 a 2 times a week with vit. K2. but my ears are not happy :(

I also tried Armour thyroid..but that made my heart beats so hard..it made me scared after my attack..so I quit.

I do have acces to raw milk..I drink it for almost 2 years now.
Last year I followed a very low carb diet.. because my fasting bloodsuger was high..6.5. I avoided any sugar and
fruit for one year.
Now I did what you adviced to someone else here on the forum..put my glucose meter away and drink very very
happy my fresh O.J. with salt and gelatine and 1 glass raw milk.
I also use a pinch baking soda in every glass water I drink.

Maybe you have some more advice for me..
In the meantime I use the estrogen every other day..and my new progesteron-spray every day.

Thank in advance,
Ardina.
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
Ardina said:
Hello Peatarian,
*** Hi, Ardina!

Thanks for writing.
*** You're welcome.
I read most of the articels from Ray Peat according estrogen.
Also that he thinks its not usefull to measure female hormones in the blood..but how do I know then??
*** I think a heart attack speaks loudly. Read the side effects of the pill and you'll know where it comes from.

After my heart-attack in 2010 I found a orthomoliculair docter here in the Netherlands who did bloodwork
on all my hormones and its seems that I had high progesteron...wich did not protect me from having my
heart-attack ;-( and no estrogen.

*** A good way to measure progesterone in non pregnant women is to take a sample from their brain. I suppose he didn't do that? Low estrogen in your blood usually means high estrogen in your tissue where is does the most harm.

Since reading here on the forum..and all your posts I searched here in Europe for a better progesteron
creme/spray and I ordered this one
http://www.super-smart.eu/en--Endocrine ... 8-ml--0516
*** It's not good. I will send you a PM.

Last week..I quit the estrogen-gel and used the progesteronspray every day.
Now..sweating like a horse..and my temp. is falling from 37.1 to 36...
I'm feeling very unhappy..also all the eczema on my face comes back. :shock:

*** Did you read what I posted? About flashing? You are very high on estrogen. You need thyroid and progesterone. Big time.

After my heart-attack I was send home with a lot of medicines..which included asprine..And I reacted very bad
on this.
The aspirine made me sudden deaf.
Now I try to use it again..1 a 2 times a week with vit. K2. but my ears are not happy :(

*** Yes, **** can have an effect on your ears. How much were you using then? It could be enough for you to use 500 mg a day.

I also tried Armour thyroid..but that made my heart beats so hard..it made me scared after my attack..so I quit.
*** Yes, Armour used to be good until they changed the formula. The heart beats say you were using too much T3 too quickly. Try NDT thiroyd and use half a pill for a week and measure your pulse and temperature.

I do have acces to raw milk..I drink it for almost 2 years now.
*** Ray Peat doesn't recommend raw milk. I don't know where this comes from. Everybody seems to believe hat. He recommends pasteurized 1% milk.

Last year I followed a very low carb diet.. because my fasting bloodsuger was high..6.5. I avoided any sugar and
fruit for one year.
*** Yes, that's how people become diabetic. You should use lots of sugar. If you don't get ripe fruit, use white sugar. With a lot I mean up to 0.5 kg a day.

Now I did what you adviced to someone else here on the forum..put my glucose meter away and drink very very
happy my fresh O.J. with salt and gelatine and 1 glass raw milk.
*** Yes, that was me. But I also advised lots of sugar.

I also use a pinch baking soda in every glass water I drink.
*** Good.

Maybe you have some more advice for me..
In the meantime I use the estrogen every other day..and my new progesteron-spray every day.

*** If you have read any of Ray Peats articles I don't really get why you are using estrogen - and progesterone. That's like pouring oil and water into a fire. It will burn even higher. Order progest-e-complex and NDT thyroid. You will feel better within a week. You hardly get any progesterone from that spray.

Thank in advance,
*** You are welcome.
I will send you am PM.
Ardina.
 

Ardina

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
11
Hello Peatarian,

Thanks for explaning to me.
I quit the estrogel now for 4 day's..and using the progesteron-spray.
Feeling fine..temp this morning was 37,5.

next week I have an apointment with my orthomolicilair dokter..I ask for bloodwork for my thyroid
and talk with him abouth thyroid supll. but I'm still a bit scared abouth that...because of my first
experiment with armour th.

Can you tell me where I can order the right progesteron oil...so that I receive it and it's not sent back..

I've the best experience when it's shipped with DHL...The orders come in Europa via Brussel..and they
never stop a packet.

Thank again,
Ardina.
 

Dutchie

Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Messages
921
I've read quite some of his articles too,but what I'm wondering is this: most of the foods he recommends are all high(especially dairy which is said to also function as opium/glutamate) in natural estrogens and the one he says are not that good (cabbages,leafy greens etc.) are actually the ones who prohibit/block estrogen dominance.
So,doesn't one become Estrogen Dominant, fatgain, on a Peat Diet?...especially women
 

gabriel79

Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
94
Hi Dutchie,
Regarding estrogens in milk. Yes, but there're also other things in milk (saturated fat, calcium, protein, etc) which help the body eliminate and reduce the estrogen. So, you may have a short increase in estrogen after drinking milk, but you're giving your body nutrients to deal with it in the long term. Also, there're traces of other hormones like progesterone which are protective. Regarding the cruciferous "anti-estrogenicity", Peat is against them because they increase the estrogen burden in your body (and don't give you other benefits to fight it). Remember the supposed anti-estrogenicity of cruciferous comes from the fact that they ARE estrogenic, but it's claimed that they're weaker than your body estrogens (like estradiol), and bind to the estrogen receptors so your estrogen is not bound. Peat distrusts this last part, and in the end it boils down to how much estrogen your liver can dispose off.
. Regarding fat gain, I haven't gained an appreciable amount of fat though I drink above 1 liter of milk per day (and don't eat cruciferous)
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
12,366
Location
USA
:goodpost
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
Ardina said:
I quit the estrogel now for 4 day's..and using the progesteron-spray.
*** That's a relieve.

Feeling fine..temp this morning was 37,5.
*** Okay. That sound as if there was some inflammation at work. Would go on measuring? How was your pulse?

next week I have an apointment with my orthomolicilair dokter..
*** I always flinch when I hear 'doctor'. Did you get out of there alive?

I ask for bloodwork for my thyroid
and talk with him abouth thyroid supll.
*** Any news yet? I suppose he will not prescribe thyroid. I only know of one doctor in Brussels who prescribes combi-thyroid (t3 and t4) and knows a little about hormones. Dr. Thierry Hertoghe.

but I'm still a bit scared abouth that...because of my first
experiment with armour th.
*** Many people have problems with Armour. I think it wasn't that bad before they changed the formula.

Can you tell me where I can order the right progesteron oil...so that I receive it and it's not sent back..
*** I sent you a PM.
 

Ardina

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
11
Hi Peatarian,

Yes..I do know Thierry Hertoghe and his sister Teresa. I have his book..but you say he knows
"a little" abouth hormones??????

Everything went fine untill yesterday evening..I've got a massive hot flash and also a pannic attack..
I can not tolerate the sweat on my scalp..it feels like someone is sticking 1000 needles in my scalp
and my hair is falling out....and I lost already so much..so I tooke a blop estrogel.

I also have difficulties with all the sugar..it makes me feel sick in the stomach..and very very tired
I never craved for sweet..
I strain 2 oranges a day and put in salt and a little sugar.
Gelatine in my coffee with heavy cream..but no sugar.
It is not that I am afraid for gaining weight..I already gained 4 kilo on the Weston Price diet.

Temp this morning 37.2 when I was already downstairs and pulse 84..which is normal 72.

Today I took 1 aspirin 80 mg. I can tollerate this now 3 times a week...this is the amount which gave
me the hearingproblems when I had to take this everyday. (after my heart-attack)

positive thing..I put some progesteron cream I already had on my legs..and my spiderveins are less
visible ;-))

Ardina.
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
Hi Ardina,

I suppose what you describe happened during your ovulation or a few days before you had your menstruation. Losing hair, sweating and flushing are caused by estrogen. If you add estrogen to the equation, you will lose more hair, flush more and sweat more.
When you feel like this, use more progesterone. Please read Ray Peat's articles. You will understand that estrogen and progesterone are antagonists. Adding both is like adding nothing at all. You already noticed that progesterone is healing on your legs - wait what it can do for your hair, your skin, your entire well-being.
The older you get, the more estrogen will be in your tissue and blood and the harder it gets for your liver to get rid of it. The symptoms you describe are typical signs to up your dosage of estrogen.
Please read the thread about progesterone, too. I feel this thread could be placed in the progesterone thread.
Are you sure the aspirin dosage is very, very, very low. Are you sure it's 80 mg?
I read about low dose aspirin which is 500mg a day.
The hearing problems are known to start at 1g a day or more.
I think we should consider that your ear troubles have different reasons. Where you eating enough protein?
 

Ardina

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
11
Hi Peatarian,

I'm 56..and stopped menstruating at age 50.
After that..I had all kinds of problems..cyste in thyroid, allergies..(severe...on my face)
after that hair was falling out...suspision for breast cancer (which was not..thank god)
finally my heart-attack.

Before this all...my body worked perfect..I never took birth control pill...just felt not good.
Maybe it's helpful to mention I give birth to my beautifil daughter on age 36.
I had a perfect pregnancy..birth was with ceasarian.

We always eated healthy..I like to cook everything from scratch..

After 50...I felt like my life was over..
I was always a creative person..making jewelery, sewing my clothes, making long hikes with my
husband , daughter and our 2 dogs....
It felt like a "grey" thing felt over me..I was not me anymore..
All that time I was using progesteron-cream..I even contacted dr. Mercola because I've read in one article from him
you have to use the cream "inside"
Then I found one doctor here in Holland who did bloodwork for all my hormones..
and I had high progesteron, high DHEA...but no estrogen

I remember when I took the first estrogen-gel...
I was in our garden and mentioned to my husband how beautiful our garden was...and he looked so surpised...
Its the same for many years...but it felt for me I saw the colors from our flowers again...the "grey look" was
gone..

I realy try to believe Ray Peat..abouth estrogen dominance.
I also have the book from dr. Lee...

I read every word on this forum abouth progesteron.
Today I did not use the estrogel..

Yes..that little dose asperin killed my ears..
I have used it for 7 months..every day..and every day it seems I lost my hearing for one second.
I'm reacting very allergic to many medicines.

Hope I've give you some more useful information.

Ardina.
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
Ray Peat describes that estrogen has the same effect on the brain as cocaine: It will put the cells into an excited state. You will feel that as something thrilling, something good. But of course in the long term it is damaging and degenerative. He thinks even cocaine would be less harmful than estrogen. Progesterone, thyroid, saturated fats will and reduced serotonin will restore your brain health and with it your creativity and the parts of yourself you feel have been lost.
The scene in the garden you describe is very touching and I don't want to spoil this for you. Maybe you can see it as a goal, as a place where you want to live and not just visit.
Estrogen is not the way to get there.

Maybe you want to read these articles?

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/na ... gens.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging ... rone.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/coron ... rone.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ti ... ogen.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ru486.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... osis.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... ress.shtml
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... ncer.shtml

Maybe you want to write to Ray Peat and ask to buy the newsletter before last? It was about estrogen and menopause. Have you donated blood lately? It might make you feel a lot better.
 

Ardina

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 5, 2012
Messages
11
Thanks Peatarian.

I try to read the articles tomorrow..feeling very tired right now.

Yes..I was a blood-donor in my 30's.
Then I stopped..because I was pregnant.
But now..after my heart-attack..they don't want my blood anymore.

After monday evening..I did not take estrogen anymore.
Hair looks terrible..like I lost half of it..and I feel very tired and sat.

And I could not resist..after drinking a glas coca cola I measerud my bloodglucose..
It was 11nmol =200 mg/dl.
It realy does not feel if all this sugar is good for me.
Lots of headache..and feeling so tired..and I can't sleep.

Ardina
 

peatarian

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
313
Ardina said:
Thanks Peatarian.

I try to read the articles tomorrow..feeling very tired right now.

Yes..I was a blood-donor in my 30's.
Then I stopped..because I was pregnant.
But now..after my heart-attack..they don't want my blood anymore.

After monday evening..I did not take estrogen anymore.
Hair looks terrible..like I lost half of it..and I feel very tired and sat.

And I could not resist..after drinking a glas coca cola I measerud my bloodglucose..
It was 11nmol =200 mg/dl.
It realy does not feel if all this sugar is good for me.
Lots of headache..and feeling so tired..and I can't sleep.

Ardina

Hm ... some homeopaths offer blood-letting. I think that might be good for you.
Btw ... you can donate blood and have it excluded from use afterwards.
A change of diet takes time to manifest in changed blood glucose levels and if you measured the glucose after drinking Coca-Cola it will of course be higher.
The sugar is not responsible for headaches, feeling tired and sleeping problems - on the contrary. If you eat something sugary before going to bed you might sleep easier and better. There is a whole thread about sleeping problems. Sugar lowers cortisol and by that all the other stress hormones. Maybe you go there for details.
How long have you tried using more sugar now? How is the rest of your diet? You are not using PUFA or vegetables? Are you eating enough fruit and cheese? What about calcium and magnesium? Are you using eggshell powder? Orange juice yet?
Are you using enough salt for the headaches? I always realize that I don't have enough salt when I get headaches.
 

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