@shanny thanks!
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Estrogen overload or sluggish liver?
- Thread starter lymantriadispsr
- Start date
Before peating. They got worse after low carb diet that I did for awhile but I had gut issues, IBS, and my diet previously was no dairy, no sugar, diet high in pufas and I had painful menstrual cycle for years, I had joint pain and was really underweight for years with depression and anxiety before that and that what led me to try different dietary approaches and ultimately to Ray Peat and his ideas. My health, my looks, my weight are all improved so I have to go by how I feel and the resolution of symptoms. I am also monitoring blood work, like the thyroid, liver, cholesterol, etc and am retesting in a few months so I am being responsible about it. I am taking some other vitamins and minerals to support my body. The painful menstrual cycle has resolved, and the migraines are so lot better than they were, I had them daily, with nausea and vomiting.. Now if get one they are less severe and I can pull out of it much quicker. I've been on a cypro a month (I'm not intending it to be a long term thing, I think it's probably a good idea to takes breaks if I take it longer) it wasn't a quick or easy decision as it is a stonger anti-histamine but I felt having tried other things that it was needed. I weighed it up and the symptoms were pretty severe and like I say chronic and it's been worth doing to just break the cycle of high serotonin/high estrogen/high histamine. I'm working on the gut health as well and general stress/life style. It is an individual thing and it's the decision I made having gone round in circles trying different things.
InChristAlone
Member
Yeah I think many people have bad experiences with soluble fiber. And I think that's why Peat recommends the carrot or bamboo shoots instead of beans. I was afraid of beans for yrs because I do have gut dysbiosis. But I didn't heal avoiding fiber. I needed cypro, progesterone thyroid(but went off when I realized it was just making me very skinny), needed coffee and sugar and cream or had no energy, needed to eat frequently or had blood sugar crashes. And now I have high LDL (well.. it's within range but it's been steadily going up every yr and I'm only 37). Now I have some new symptoms flushing in my face and ears after eating kinda like I took niacin.
So Karen explained beans get the bad rap because people have high adrenaline as it is and when there's a strongly fermentable carbohydrate in the intestine the adrenaline in the bile are causing reactions throughout the intestines and the first thing it will cause is fermentation of carbs. Beans are the first choice! But that if you notice when you are stressed you will have more gas even if you ate no beans! This happens to my son. Whenever he gets scared he toots up a storm immediately! She is the first person to explain that to me. Catecholamines are what cause inability to tolerate fermentable carbs. And what is coffee doing for the vast majority of society? Increasing catecholamines. So she explained that as the soluble fiber binds up the excess steroid hormones and adrenaline the stress reactions should go down. But for those that just have them once in a while it's not going to go well.
I have been adding in some more beans and actually they do bring some calm. I had constant stress this past week until I ate beans. Woke up the next day and felt way more calm. Problem becomes when I keep eating them it's like the gut dysbiosis comes to the forefront. So I'm trying to add them in and not go all out right away. Hard to do!
Why do you feel healing gut dysbiosis through soluble fiber and eliminating excess steroids, estrogen, and cholesterol doesn't heal anything systemically? The one who coined the bean protocol cured her Crohn's disease with beans. That's pretty miraculous on the surface but when Karen explained how it makes sense why. Excess adrenaline prevents healing of the intestines and ability to utilize the food you eat. Beans can mop up the excess and as the adrenaline comes down the body heals. Cannot heal when in a sympathetic nervous system state. The Ray Peat diet pushes my sympathetic in overdrive (feels good for a while).
Thank you. I had a quick look at Karen Hurd and I previously ate those kind of foods for years with a decline in my health which led me to Ray Peat. I'll keep it mind and am keeping an eye on blood test results and markers so am being responsible, at the moment I feel things are improving so I'll see how it goes.
InChristAlone
Member
What was a typical day of eating before Peat? And yeah just eating more plant based won't do anything special especially if it's high in beta carotene and lacking in quality animal proteins, especially taurine as bile is produced with taurine.
My previous diet was a mix of animal and plant based protein, grains, beans and vegetables, no dairy, no fruit, no sugar, etc and my health was very poor, very unweight, and in chronic pain and gut issues so I've tried many different approaches and Peat's ideas have helped me greatly to where I was. To be honest I was just replying to the original post regarding what Peat's probable perspective would be and what I am currently finding useful, I wasn't really looking for advice myself as as you appreciate it's quite challenging making dietary changes and finding what's helpful and it's not easy making the decision to take certain supplements, thyroid, etc and mainstream people don't understand and it's just confusing and a bit stressful as I don't want doubt in my mind about what I'm doing what I'm taking a balanced measured decision based on my own experience and body. Maybe I may come to where you are at, I don't know, this is working for me at the moment and I appreciate your input and that you're coming from a good place and as I said I'll bare it mind. I don't think I'll be posting again for the time until I'm further in as I can do without the added stress.
Z
Zsazsa
Guest
Along the past 3 decades many studies indicated the prophylatic use of riboflavin could be efficient against migraines, but all of them conclude by saying more studies are needed.
I found that this small study (n=3) in children with "cyclic vomiting syndrome" was very interesting, and found in a similar study after scrolling down a possible cause to the CVS.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Even though this other study didn't use riboflavin as a prophylatic treatment, it found correlation between vomiting crises and hormonal issues
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Long story short, I have always had migraine crises with and without vomiting associated with hormonal variations, and a few years ago I started using riboflavin (30 mg) at the very first sign of headache and was able to successfully prevent most of them.
Considering its association with high ADH, now I am wondering if migraine/vomiting crises could be associated with high blood pressure peaks (I never measured during a crisis, but I generally have low BP).
I found that this small study (n=3) in children with "cyclic vomiting syndrome" was very interesting, and found in a similar study after scrolling down a possible cause to the CVS.
Riboflavin in cyclic vomiting syndrome: efficacy in three children - PubMed
Riboflavin may be an effective and safe prophylactic treatment for children with CVS. Increasing doses of riboflavin and long periods of prophylaxis may be needed in some children..
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Even though this other study didn't use riboflavin as a prophylatic treatment, it found correlation between vomiting crises and hormonal issues
Cyclic Vomiting Syndrome in Infants and Children: A Clinical Follow-Up Study - PubMed
Most patients with cyclic vomiting syndrome recovered completely and benefited from prophylactic therapy, although half of them developed migraines.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Long story short, I have always had migraine crises with and without vomiting associated with hormonal variations, and a few years ago I started using riboflavin (30 mg) at the very first sign of headache and was able to successfully prevent most of them.
Considering its association with high ADH, now I am wondering if migraine/vomiting crises could be associated with high blood pressure peaks (I never measured during a crisis, but I generally have low BP).
GreekDemiGod
Member
Same.
Not the meme diet "milk + OJ", but Peating in general is causing me estrogen issues when I didn't have estrogen issues to begin with.
Z
Zsazsa
Guest
I have found that porcini mushroom is a very strong aromatase inhibitor.
InChristAlone
Member
Thanks for sharing, I'm sorry if I'm adding to your stress. I don't want people to stress about this. I know how easy it is to do. I myself still don't know what's best. I tried the high milk and sugar and was full of stress but that doesn't mean someone else isn't soothed by milk. Some are.
This is the Karen Hurd approach, it's meant to be temporary and then things are added back in. Except coffee and sugar.
"No dairy of any sort. No sugar or any sweeteners including stevia, juice or fruit. No stimulants including coffee, even decaf, or teas of any kind. Avoid scented anything including candles, oils, shampoo etc. This is to quit over taxing the adrenal glands. Expect to have withdrawal for 2 weeks. No whole grains, raw veggies, hot spices, acidic foods such as vinegar, tomatoes, salsa. No corn. No cruciferous veggies (cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, brussel sprouts, rutabaga, turnips, radishes.) No nuts, seeds, nut butters. No condiments including salad dressing. No supplements. Don't get hungry, it stimulates the adrenal glands. No exercise, it stimulates the adrenals.
Her "Do List": Eat a minimum of 1/2 cup beans 6 times a day, and the number of times a day is important, Eat 3-4 ounces of poultry, fish, seafood, eggs, or lean beef at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Drink at least 64 ounces of purified water daily. Sleep or rest at least 10 hours daily. One day a week just chill; no work or housework.
You can have as much beans and well cooked non-cruciferous veggies as you want. You can eat white rice, skinned potatoes, google the "White diet" for digestive problems. You can eat non seasoned broths.
After your symptoms resolve you can start re introducing cruciferous veggies, fats, grains, raw veggies, and exercise gradually, but never go back to sugar and maybe dairy. You can have one piece of fruit a day after you have healed."
So yeah.. very anti-Peat. But it is more temporary and then making beans an added addition to meals after that.
youngsinatra
Member
For those struggling with soluble fiber - bovine lactoferrin helped me tremendously with the flatulence/gas aspect.
I noticed that I don‘t really fart anymore when I take about 100mg of bovine lactoferrin with each meal. (so around 400mg total for me)
Without it, I fart a lot and with strong smells..
I noticed that I don‘t really fart anymore when I take about 100mg of bovine lactoferrin with each meal. (so around 400mg total for me)
Without it, I fart a lot and with strong smells..
Its da dairy
I certainly am not claiming to have the answers, nor do I want to seem like I'm going against anybodies successes by any means. I just question if it's solving the problem or mopping up a mess from an over-productive system. If beans/soluble fiber are binding all of those things and removing them from the system, are you really solving the problem or is the body still working hard to make all of these hormones in excess and the soluble fiber is just carrying it out and not getting to the systemic route of what's going on. To me, if you fix the reason you're producing too much adrenaline/cortisol/estrogen etc. then would you need all of that fiber? I hope that makes sense!!
If you're feeling better and it's working for you, then maybe I'll get my answers! lol
InChristAlone
Member
Yes it could absolutely be too much hormones being produced and solving that would help. But Peat does recommend removing some bile because it does recirculate estrogen.
I just don't think it's so simple as "Vitamin A" is the problem, or "toxic bile" is the problem. As Ray has pointed out many times, Georgi and Danny have highlighted in many of their podcasts, and we can even go way back to Hippocrates...."all disease begins in the gut." Endotoxin is a giant burden on the liver, the liver makes bile, the liver stores nutrients for back-up. Is the liver sequestering these nutrients to hoard them from pathogenic bacteria aka iron-overload or Vitamin A overload? Are the pathogenic bacteria creating byproducts to burden the liver and reduce bile production? I would think the answer is yes, which is why some of these protocols with beans are working. I think that beans are indeed helpful to remove some of the toxicity via soluble fiber, and are also providing some nutrients for helpful bacteria which is why people have initial improvements. I continue to question if this is a long-term solution, or again, truly solving the problem. Maybe user @Tarmander can weigh in, as he has posted a great thread on the microbiome and his journey with that, and has also been implementing some of the diet described with beans, etc.
InChristAlone
Member
Yeah it's hard to figure out what causes what when our system works together no part is separate from another. Even just working on the gut biome isn't the end all be all.
I found a study that said vitamin A and D regulate the amount of bile acids released, they theorized it was because then it can regulate how much is absorbed. Too much vitamin A would then cause cholestasis, which lines up with all this stuff.
GreekDemiGod
Member
There must be some truth to the inverse correlation of fiber intake with all cause mortality and disease that mainstream nutrition preaches.
InChristAlone
Member
It has more soluble fiber than most foods per serving. Psyllium husk as well. Ray likes the raw carrot but its not as good. He is now eating oats which again is similar to like white rice in it's ability to bind bile so if you are going for a huge punch beans and psyllium otherwise that bile binder drug is the best. PS try to go slow! Soluble fiber promotes bile acid production because of it's binding abilities and you may feel worse for a while.
White rice binds bile without fiber? If thats the case, then brown rice should be better since it has fiber?
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