Estrogen Like Symptoms From Gonadin

[Marko]

Hi all,
Can someone help me and does anyone have similar experiences like me:
Each Supplement (Gonadin, CortiNon...) that works on boost Testosterone and at the same time it works on Progesterone, worsening my symptoms, and I feel like I'm full of Estrogen or as some “Estrogen Detox”, a very very soft muscle, no tonus, like that I have only bone and fat without muscles, cold feeling, very very low libido...

That always happens when I take this supplements. Maybe because of T boosting supplement also acting on Progesterone that cause release of Estrogens ?
I am currently taking Gonadin 8 drops a day and vitamins A,D,E,K,B.

My labs is:
Estradiol is <20
Prolactin is about 300 mIU/L. (53-360)
Testosterone 9,08 nmol/L. (5.54-25.20)
Cortisol 360 nmol/L. (138-690)
SHBG 21 nmol/L. (13-71)
TSH 1.770 mIU/L. (0.400-4.000)
FT4 13.2 pmol/L. (11.5-22.7)
FT3 5.44 pmol/L. (2.76-6.45)


Thanks !

 

[ddjd]

testosterone converts into estrogen so maybe that enzyme is particularly "turned on" in your case

 

[Marko]

Thanks for answer!
Gonadin should be an aromatase inhibitor?

 

[Hans]

Hi all,
Can someone help me and does anyone have similar experiences like me:
Each Supplement (Gonadin, CortiNon...) that works on boost Testosterone and at the same time it works on Progesterone, worsening my symptoms, and I feel like I'm full of Estrogen or as some “Estrogen Detox”, a very very soft muscle, no tonus, like that I have only bone and fat without muscles, cold feeling, very very low libido...

That always happens when I take this supplements. Maybe because of T boosting supplement also acting on Progesterone that cause release of Estrogens ?
I am currently taking Gonadin 8 drops a day and vitamins A,D,E,K,B.

My labs is:
Estradiol is <20
Prolactin is about 300 mIU/L. (53-360)
Testosterone 9,08 nmol/L. (5.54-25.20)
Cortisol 360 nmol/L. (138-690)
SHBG 21 nmol/L. (13-71)
TSH 1.770 mIU/L. (0.400-4.000)
FT4 13.2 pmol/L. (11.5-22.7)
FT3 5.44 pmol/L. (2.76-6.45)


Thanks !

Your prolactin is pretty elevated. Maybe use a prolactin inhibitor as well such as vit E.
Gonadin boosts GABA which might be already high is your case and thus you feel those symptoms.
Have you measured DHEA as well?
Are you a generally chill / nonchalant / easy going person?

 

[Marko]

Your prolactin is pretty elevated. Maybe use a prolactin inhibitor as well such as vit E.
Gonadin boosts GABA which might be already high is your case and thus you feel those symptoms.
Have you measured DHEA as well?
Are you a generally chill / nonchalant / easy going person?

Yes, I measured:
DHEA: 10.0 ng/ml (1.8-12.5)
DHEA-S: 199 ug/dl (80-560)

Yes, I always feel cold and I'm obese.
For this reason, and because of lower Testosterone I take Gonadin, but my symptoms always be worse when I use T boost supplements.

 

[Hans]

Yes, I measured:
DHEA: 10.0 ng/ml (1.8-12.5)
DHEA-S: 199 ug/dl (80-560)

Yes, I always feel cold and I'm obese.
For this reason, and because of lower Testosterone I take Gonadin, but my symptoms always be worse when I use T boost supplements.

Your DHEA-S is also pretty low which is just an indication of stress. I'd rather say your low T is a symptom of low thyroid hormones. Free hormones doesn't mean much and a total T3 and rT3 would give a better idea of thyroid function.

What other T boosting supplements have you used?

 

[Marko]

Your DHEA-S is also pretty low which is just an indication of stress. I'd rather say your low T is a symptom of low thyroid hormones. Free hormones doesn't mean much and a total T3 and rT3 would give a better idea of thyroid function.

What other T boosting supplements have you used?

Thanks for answer!

This is my labs for T3, T4 and other hormones that I did:
-T3 - 1.76 (ref. 1.10-2.70)
-T4 - 85.5 (ref. 58.0-161.0)
-Reverse T3: 165 pg/ml (90-215)
-PTH -19,7 ng/L (ref. 0-80)
-HDL - 0.95 (ref. >1.60) -always low
-LDL - 3.35 (ref. <3.40)
-Vitamin D -72.38 nmol/L
-Igf1 -126 (ref. 117-329)
-IgfBp3 -3.7 (ref. 3.5-7.6)
-HGH -0.02 --always low

I took:
-Pansterone-it gave me strength and my muscles were a bit stronger, but it raised my afternoon Cortisol to much and I felt very anxious.
-CortiNon - I feel warm, but I feel like I'm full of Estrogen and very very soft muscle, no tonus.
-Tribulus and Gonadin -same unwanted effects as with CortiNon and greater feeling of cold.

 

[Hans]

Thanks for answer!

This is my labs for T3, T4 and other hormones that I did:
-T3 - 1.76 (ref. 1.10-2.70)
-T4 - 85.5 (ref. 58.0-161.0)
-Reverse T3: 165 pg/ml (90-215)
-PTH -19,7 ng/L (ref. 0-80)
-HDL - 0.95 (ref. >1.60) -always low
-LDL - 3.35 (ref. <3.40)
-Vitamin D -72.38 nmol/L
-Igf1 -126 (ref. 117-329)
-IgfBp3 -3.7 (ref. 3.5-7.6)
-HGH -0.02 --always low

I took:
-Pansterone-it gave me strength and my muscles were a bit stronger, but it raised my afternoon Cortisol to much and I felt very anxious.
-CortiNon - I feel warm, but I feel like I'm full of Estrogen and very very soft muscle, no tonus.
-Tribulus and Gonadin -same unwanted effects as with CortiNon and greater feeling of cold.

I would definitely focus on boosting cholesterol, which is essential for steroidogenesis, and also IGF-1 and IGF-1BP3. Gonadin speeds up cholesterol transport into the testes, so when there isn't much cholesterol, not much is going to happen.
Your estrogen is normal which shows that not a lot of T is being coverted, but maybe there just isn't much T to be converted. Elevated prolactin and low DHEA-S show that you are under stress, but cortisol is in mid-range. Most of the time the circadian rhythm of cortisol is off and not necessarily the number of first draw.

What's your diet like?

 

[Marko]

I would definitely focus on boosting cholesterol, which is essential for steroidogenesis, and also IGF-1 and IGF-1BP3. Gonadin speeds up cholesterol transport into the testes, so when there isn't much cholesterol, not much is going to happen.
Your estrogen is normal which shows that not a lot of T is being coverted, but maybe there just isn't much T to be converted. Elevated prolactin and low DHEA-S show that you are under stress, but cortisol is in mid-range. Most of the time the circadian rhythm of cortisol is off and not necessarily the number of first draw.

What's your diet like?

Cortisol changes with me, so it can sometimes be high, around 590-650, and sometimes in the mid/range. Also ACTH.
How can I boost cholesterol ?

My diet contains 4 meals, a combination of Protein and Fat or Protein and Carbs. Carrot salad with lunch.
I take Casein in the morning and before sleep and after taining Amino Acids, 5g Creatine, 10g Glutamine.

 

[Hans]

Cortisol changes with me, so it can sometimes be high, around 590-650, and sometimes in the mid/range. Also ACTH.
How can I boost cholesterol ?

My diet contains 4 meals, a combination of Protein and Fat or Protein and Carbs. Carrot salad with lunch.
I take Casein in the morning and before sleep and after taining Amino Acids, 5g Creatine, 10g Glutamine.

It would help to lower cortisol then to normal levels. You can increase cholesterol with sugar, saturated fat and just lots of calories. Biotin is a cofactor in that pathway.

It would be good to know what exactly you eat and how much of what, for example a screenshot of cronometer where you logged what you ate daily so that you know exactly your macros and micros.

 

[Marko]

It would help to lower cortisol then to normal levels. You can increase cholesterol with sugar, saturated fat and just lots of calories. Biotin is a cofactor in that pathway.

It would be good to know what exactly you eat and how much of what, for example a screenshot of cronometer where you logged what you ate daily so that you know exactly your macros and micros.

Creatine and glutamine are good for Cortisol ? These two supplements are really good for me...
My total cholesterol is good, but HDL is low. Is HDL only relevant for the production of hormones?
I'm taking Biotin.
Due to obesity I try to lose fat, so in this case high calorie diet will contribute to obesity.
Maybe I should try with natural thyroid hormones for some time, if T3 and T4 are not good and for low HDL.

Thanks Hans

 

[Cirion]

Due to obesity I try to lose fat, so in this case high calorie diet will contribute to obesity.

Not necessarily. I am also fairly overweight / obese even .but with the right lever adjustments, you can absolutely lose weight on relatively high calorie, as high as 4k or even 5k calorie, although 5k requires more lever arms to adjust, 4k is still very achievable at least for a male of my height (6' 0") anyway, it just requires doing the right things such as

- Low tryptophan / low fernstrom ratio foods (no milk, cheese, whey), get ample gelatin to drive fernstrom ratio down further still
- Not over-doing protein in general (I try not to exceed 150g)
- Not over-doing fat, but do aim for a good SFA/PUFA ratio
- Get lots of sugar, eat minimal to zero starches, but at least get a solid 2-4 sugar:starch ratio
- Maximizing micronutrients as you can with the above guidelines

I am planning to make a new thread soon with my experiences, since I am now tracking data that shows all this to be possible.

So what causes obesity then? In my experience, it almost all boils down to digestion. High tryptophan foods tend to create serotonin in the gut, high protein tends to create lots of poison (ammonia), over-doing fats tends to cause excess FFA's (insulin resistance), etc. Sugar is about the only thing that is very easily digestible, starch, while it is a carb, is not ideal and can be hard to digest and cause problems also. Straight glucose powder is almost equal to sugar in digestive ease, in my opinion. Like maltodextrin powder. I am using some maltodextrin (pure glucose) to boost my carbs a bit higher, and so far it seems like I digest this nearly as well as sugar. Starch is not technically the same as pure glucose, as it takes a bit of digestive power to turn starch into usable glucose.

Instead of calories in calories out which I consider to be a dated model, let's think of things as a limit of how much digestive capability we have on a daily basis, with some foods like starch and tryptophan generally requiring vastly more digestive power and energy than simple foods like fruit/sugar and low fernstrom proteins like beef and gelatin.

Most people nowadays eat poor foods so they absolutely can gain weight on as little as 3000 or even 2500 calories or less. That's because starches and tryptophan are a heavy burden on the digestive tract. Remove the burden, increase your caloric limit. Basically, Protein, Fats, and Starches can all be over-done, but it's hard to over-do sugars. Sugars are really the only safe foods to eat after a certain threshold. There is likely a threshold for sugars too, but if there is one, it's VERY high and I haven't found one yet - and this is coming from someone who has eaten upwards of 1,000-1,200 grams of carbs in a day before and still lost weight.

 

[Ron J]

I would definitely focus on boosting cholesterol, which is essential for steroidogenesis, and also IGF-1 and IGF-1BP3. Gonadin speeds up cholesterol transport into the testes, so when there isn't much cholesterol, not much is going to happen.
Your estrogen is normal which shows that not a lot of T is being coverted, but maybe there just isn't much T to be converted. Elevated prolactin and low DHEA-S show that you are under stress, but cortisol is in mid-range. Most of the time the circadian rhythm of cortisol is off and not necessarily the number of first draw.

What's your diet like?

Other than sprints, DHEA, creatine, and dairy, is there anything else that will considerably boost IGF-1?

 

[Hans]

Other than sprints, DHEA, creatine, and dairy, is there anything else that will considerably boost IGF-1?

Highish protein intake, lots of carbs but make sure you're insulin sensitive, almost all your micros and vit D.

 

[Marko]

It would help to lower cortisol then to normal levels. You can increase cholesterol with sugar, saturated fat and just lots of calories. Biotin is a cofactor in that pathway.

It would be good to know what exactly you eat and how much of what, for example a screenshot of cronometer where you logged what you ate daily so that you know exactly your macros and micros.

Creatine and glutamine are good for Cortisol ? These two supplements are really good for me...
My total cholesterol is good, but HDL is low. Is HDL only relevant for the production of hormones?
I'm taking Biotin.
Due to obesity I try to lose fat, so in this case high calorie diet will contribute to obesity.
Maybe I should try with natural thyroid hormones for some time, if T3 and T4 are not good and for low HDL.

Thanks Hans

 

[Hans]

Creatine and glutamine can both increase ATP, which is most likely why you feel better.
Here is my list of cortisol lowering substances if you are interested: 39 supplements to lower cortisol that work

Both HDL and LDL is used for steroidogenesis, but steroidogenesis is slowed in hypothyroid, yet your thyroid hormones are not that bad. Maybe elevated free fatty acids could interfere with the process.

A caloric deficit actually increases testosterone in the obese, possibly due to less aromatase, lower lipolysis, less reactive oxygen species, oxidative stress and inflammation and also less endotoxins.

Do you count calories, just to know how much you eat daily as well as your macros? It's really important because it's so easy to underestimate how much food you're eating and then overeat as a result.
Also, how is your digestion?

 

[Cirion]

A caloric deficit actually increases testosterone in the obese, possibly due to less aromatase, lower lipolysis, less reactive oxygen species, oxidative stress and inflammation and also less endotoxins.

I disagree partially, given that I have great experience being obese and such. BUT, a mild protein and fat deficit absolutely can be beneficial I have found, especially tryptophan / methionine / cysteine deficient diet. NEVER EVER EVER do a carbohydrate deficit diet though, this is the best way to bring down your metabolism. The benefits of calorie restriction have been documented also by Haidut and he comes to a similar conclusion as me - deficit of "poison" protein amino acids, ammonia, and also PUFA (fat) deficit. There is never an advantage to cutting carbs though, that I can see. Except perhaps starch carbs. When you eat a protein (tryptophan) and fat (PUFA) deficit diet you can lose weight on more calories too. Basically strategy is Protein, Fat deficit but Carbohydrate surplus. I seemingly can lose weight on up to 800+ carbs but low protein and low fat.

 

[Hans]

I disagree partially, given that I have great experience being obese and such. BUT, a mild protein and fat deficit absolutely can be beneficial I have found, especially tryptophan / methionine / cysteine deficient diet. NEVER EVER EVER do a carbohydrate deficit diet though, this is the best way to bring down your metabolism. The benefits of calorie restriction have been documented also by Haidut and he comes to a similar conclusion as me - deficit of "poison" protein amino acids, ammonia, and also PUFA (fat) deficit. There is never an advantage to cutting carbs though, that I can see. Except perhaps starch carbs. When you eat a protein (tryptophan) and fat (PUFA) deficit diet you can lose weight on more calories too. Basically strategy is Protein, Fat deficit but Carbohydrate surplus. I seemingly can lose weight on up to 800+ carbs but low protein and low fat.

I was pointing out what studies found. Eliminating things that you mentioned gives similar benefits to caloric deficit, but to start losing weight on high calories you need a high RMR and mitochondrial efficiency.

Haidut once mentioned that he ate around 250g carbs and below 3000 calories I think. Maybe he ate more when he was recovering.

Once you are metabolically effective you don't need to eat that many calories or that many carbs, but if your body requires it and can stay lean then you can eat that much.

I would first and foremost focus on optimizing the gut and digestion like Clash and a few others did and also improve insulin sensitivity.
If you struggle to do that via diet, supplements is really a great option. Haidut also megadosed a few supplements to fix himself.

 

[Cirion]

I was pointing out what studies found. Eliminating things that you mentioned gives similar benefits to caloric deficit, but to start losing weight on high calories you need a high RMR and mitochondrial efficiency.

Haidut once mentioned that he ate around 250g carbs and below 3000 calories I think. Maybe he ate more when he was recovering.

Once you are metabolically effective you don't need to eat that many calories or that many carbs, but if your body requires it and can stay lean then you can eat that much.

I would first and foremost focus on optimizing the gut and digestion like Clash and a few others did and also improve insulin sensitivity.
If you struggle to do that via diet, supplements is really a great option. Haidut also megadosed a few supplements to fix himself.

I gave up with supplements to be honest. I am sure they have their use, but they're just too hard to optimize without frequent access to bloodwork with no easy way to know if they're even helping you.

Optimizing the gut and digestion is nice and all, but I've found it's almost impossible to do in practice with convoluted and complex supplement strategies (At least without frequent bloodwork), and it's far, far easier to manipulate things via diet. Getting stuck in the trap of supplements is probably why so many here don't get better, in my opinion. I don't think you can out-supplement a bad diet. So, I'm gonna figure out the perfect diet first, and then maybe play with supplements again. Rather than force your body to digest foods it doesn't even want, it's better (imo) to focus on foods it does digest well which is low pufa low tryptophan, sugar rich foods and then you don't even need complex supplement stacks.

You need more and not less calories for reasons you have stated - Less metabolic efficiency, but also because heavier weight means you are more metabolically active. Haidut did indeed mega-dose some supplements, but to be honest, he is more knowledgable than almost anyone on these forums (Myself included), and most people aren't capable enough to know what supplements and what dosages to take. I played with supplements for 8 months with no benefit. So this isn't a criticism of anyone in particular or meant to offend, just stating the truth. I think the most optimal way to lose weight is one that keeps metabolism running at an efficient rate. I am finding from my data collection that for example there seems to be a trend of waking body temperature and weight change (with temperatures close to 98.6 resulting in most weight loss). You are right though that too much of the wrong foods absolutely can wreck your body temps, so there absolutely is a sweet spot of not too much and not too little food, especially the right kinds. I haven't yet found this sweet spot but I'm getting very close, as I collect more and more data. I have definitely found that over-eating often brings my temperature too low, as does under-eating, and it is up to each individual to find their own sweet spot. IMO, supplementation should generally be an advanced strategy, and most hypothyroid people simply aren't in the headspace (high enough mental cognition) to properly identify which supplements and what dosages will help them. For example, read Nathan Hatch's book (if you haven't already). He has very convoluted and incoherent supplement strategies, that when I was sick and reading this book, just made me more confused than ever.

A very rough chart with rough correlation so far to be sure, but so far, it seems to show that indeed, higher waking temperature tends to correlate w/ weight loss (better metabolism). Restricting calories too much can cause you to tank into the 97's which you don't want.

 

[Marko]

Creatine and glutamine can both increase ATP, which is most likely why you feel better.
Here is my list of cortisol lowering substances if you are interested: 39 supplements to lower cortisol that work

Both HDL and LDL is used for steroidogenesis, but steroidogenesis is slowed in hypothyroid, yet your thyroid hormones are not that bad. Maybe elevated free fatty acids could interfere with the process.

A caloric deficit actually increases testosterone in the obese, possibly due to less aromatase, lower lipolysis, less reactive oxygen species, oxidative stress and inflammation and also less endotoxins.

Do you count calories, just to know how much you eat daily as well as your macros? It's really important because it's so easy to underestimate how much food you're eating and then overeat as a result.
Also, how is your digestion?

Is it possible that when this supplements stimulate the production of Testosterone, although T is low to me and body turns T into Estrogen?
Or is it an unwonted reaction from effect on Progesterone? (soft muscles, low libido ...)
I also have the similar symptoms when I take oral or topical Vitamine D. But sun or tanning is good for me.

Ray told me:
Vitamin D would be better around 125 nmol/L, or a little more. When DHEA doesn’t increase heat production, it’s usually because thyroid and vitamin D are low. I think it’s good to keep the TSH around 0.4.

Vitamin D is one of the factors for Testosterone, but energy production is crucial, so thyroid has to be good, too. If you don’t get much sun exposure, it might take 5000 iu to optimize the vitamin D.