Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism

[boxers]

Be interesting, running a full panel test, including dht, progesterone

 

[sladerunner69]

I feel best with my Estrogen a bit high (70 area). Previously when taking AI and keeping my e2 low was just a mess, horrible libido, joint pain. etc

Since I stopped using an AI to keep my e2 around 15-30 and let it rise to 70 range. my Morning wood has returned.

Crushing estrogen is a bad idea. We need eatrogen

I've actually noticed similar effects the more ai's I take. When I take aspirin, thyroid, vit E, niacinimide, K, and eat no PUFA, I notice joint and bone aches in my arms, shoulders, and randomnly throughout my body. I also feel unemotional and tired, with little sex drive. It makes it hard to do a good job with school work.

Rather I prefer to take just one or two supplements, no aspirin (only for occasional headaches) keep my diet low pufa, and drink a bit of coffee. This way I feel best, get the benefits of low estrogen without going overboard into aching bone territory. I think thyroid hormone itself is a fairly potent anti-estrogen, and if you are a younger fella like myself, with good thyroid function in the 80's bpm, then taking supplements is unnecessary, superfluous, and probably causing more trouble than it's worth.

 

[baccheion]

I've actually noticed similar effects the more ai's I take. When I take aspirin, thyroid, vit E, niacinimide, K, and eat no PUFA, I notice joint and bone aches in my arms, shoulders, and randomnly throughout my body. I also feel unemotional and tired, with little sex drive. It makes it hard to do a good job with school work.

Rather I prefer to take just one or two supplements, no aspirin (only for occasional headaches) keep my diet low pufa, and drink a bit of coffee. This way I feel best, get the benefits of low estrogen without going overboard into aching bone territory. I think thyroid hormone itself is a fairly potent anti-estrogen, and if you are a younger fella like myself, with good thyroid function in the 80's bpm, then taking supplements is unnecessary, superfluous, and probably causing more trouble than it's worth.

Does this happen at RDA amounts of the vitamins/minerals, or were you taking much higher amounts? How much? Were issues alleviated by more calcium? More vitamin D? Pregnenolone + DHEA?

 

[sladerunner69]

Does this happen at RDA amounts of the vitamins/minerals, or were you taking much higher amounts? How much? Were issues alleviated by more calcium? More vitamin D? Pregnenolone + DHEA?

Actually preg+dhea did seem to reduce the aches\pains and fatigue, but not enough. And I don't like taking these hormones because they typically leave me feeling somewhat discombobulated, detached, and my brain a bit too "clunky" or "abrasive" (hard to think about things). The only good way to feel better is to not take the supplememts, as I said. Funny enough, another quick remedy I have found is to have a couple of pints of beer. I don't like having more than 3 drinks though, and never two days in a row.

 

[baccheion]

Actually preg+dhea did seem to reduce the aches\pains and fatigue, but not enough. And I don't like taking these hormones because they typically leave me feeling somewhat discombobulated, detached, and my brain a bit too "clunky" or "abrasive" (hard to think about things). The only good way to feel better is to not take the supplememts, as I said. Funny enough, another quick remedy I have found is to have a couple of pints of beer. I don't like having more than 3 drinks though, and never two days in a row.

Vitamin D should also work. Have you ever tried it in that way?

 

[sladerunner69]

Vitamin D should also work. Have you ever tried it in that way?

Well no,I don't take it because I drink a lot of milk.

 

[baccheion]

Well no,I don't take it because I drink a lot of milk.

Have you ever checked serum level? I bet it's insufficient. One dose calculator: Online calculator for a correct vitamin D dosage | Vitamin D Service.

 

[skycop00]

I feel best with my Estrogen a bit high (70 area). Previously when taking AI and keeping my e2 low was just a mess, horrible libido, joint pain. etc

Since I stopped using an AI to keep my e2 around 15-30 and let it rise to 70 range. my Morning wood has returned.

Crushing estrogen is a bad idea. We need eatrogen

100% agree!

 

[schultz]

I think too many times conclusions are drawn based on assumptions that a drug is specific

I keep trying to make this point on the forum. You seem to have explained it better than I did!

Anatrozole inhibit Progesterone

I've suspected this for a while, and I did find a paper that alluded to it (it was a while ago, I don't remember the details), but never found much more than this. Where did you read this?

I did find a bit of evidence that Anastrozole increases nitric oxide, which I mentioned in this post. That alone could explain something like "joint pain", at least in regards to this particular drug. I only skimmed the research though, partly because I don't fully understand it. It takes me a while to make sense of things!

Edit: Almost spelt it "eluded", that would have been embarrassing! lol

 

[skycop00]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/andr.12126


Proof of concept trial concluding that aromatization of T is required for maintaining BMD and several other estrogen-related effects i.e. IGF-1 in the second study analysis published separately

 

[haidut]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/andr.12126


Proof of concept trial concluding that aromatization of T is required for maintaining BMD and several other estrogen-related effects i.e. IGF-1 in the second study analysis published separately

We already discussed this - anastrozole inhibits a lot more than just aromatase. Also, look at the original post. It says that administration of non-aromatizable steroids like DHT also prevented bone loss. That suggests estrogen itself is not needed. A great trial would be to have a group given an AI + progesterone, AI + pregnenolone or AI + DHEA, as the *zole drugs have been shown to suppress these steroids and they are all vital for bone health.
On the positive side, your study is yet another one that shows muscle mass increased ONLY in the group given an AI. So, thank you for finding it.
This was the main purpose of the original post - to show that estrogen is not needed for muscle anabolism. So far all the human studies confirm this, and I am really not sold that estrogen is required for bone health either.
"...Both TT and AI increased serum TT levels (>500 ng/dL, p < 0.05) compared to baseline; T values remained stable throughout the duration of the trial. At 12 months, TT improved the primary outcome of lumbar spine BMD (p < 0.01). Both interventions improved knee strength at 12 months compared to baseline (p < 0.05) while lean body mass significantly increased only in the AI group at 6 and 12 months (1.49 ± 0.38 kg, p < 0.01; 1.24 ± 0.39 kg, p < 0.05, respectively) compared to baseline."

 

[sladerunner69]

Have you ever checked serum level? I bet it's insufficient. One dose calculator: Online calculator for a correct vitamin D dosage | Vitamin D Service.

Nope haven't had blood tests in years. I live in the sunniest part of the US, and have taken big doses of vit D in the past with not discernable effect (actually it may have made me more tired if anything). Why are you thinking that it is insufficient? The joint pain?

 

[baccheion]

Nope haven't had blood tests in years. I live in the sunniest part of the US, and have taken big doses of vit D in the past with not discernable effect (actually it may have made me more tired if anything). Why are you thinking that it is insufficient? The joint pain?

Tired? Was it taken with vitamin K and magnesium? Vitamin D can reduce aches caused by aromatase inhibitors. Many regularly outside in sunny areas still end up vitamin D insufficient, especially if they are deficient in magnesium.

As a vitamin D test is fairly cheap, you could verify. Have you ever checked vitamin D status?

 

[Lyall]

I prefer the phenotype of the young male - T in the upper 20% of normal, estrogen in the bottom 20% of normal, and progesterone at the level of non-menstruating females. Our progesterone greatly declines with age, similar to DHEA and pregnenolone, and this decline is likely involved in some of the bone deterioration ascribed to estrogen deficiency.
Pregnenolone, Progesterone And DHEA Drop, Cortisol Rises In Aging

Haidut, what would you estimate young males body fat % at and do you think this is in part why they have a favorable hormonal profile?

 

[Douglas Ek]

I also have to testify that I’ve done better when my blood estrogen is higher regards to energy and libido at least. Ive taken androsterone and on blood test it lowered my estrogen quite a lot. My libido went down. If I take zinc my libido tends to go down and energy. Now recently got hold of aromasin and been doing 5mg and tried 10mg and same effects libido goes down. So estrogen is 100% needed for libido at least. Seems go be some mechanism through NO as drugs like viagra etc stops working for people when they use AI or have low estrogen.

 

[baccheion]

I also have to testify that I’ve done better when my blood estrogen is higher regards to energy and libido at least. Ive taken androsterone and on blood test it lowered my estrogen quite a lot. My libido went down. If I take zinc my libido tends to go down and energy. Now recently got hold of aromasin and been doing 5mg and tried 10mg and same effects libido goes down. So estrogen is 100% needed for libido at least. Seems go be some mechanism through NO as drugs like viagra etc stops working for people when they use AI or have low estrogen.

One theory in my mind is that estrogen increases acetylcholine. I wonder if a supplement like alpha-GPC would restore libido.

 

[Douglas Ek]

One theory in my mind is that estrogen increases acetylcholine. I wonder if a supplement like alpha-GPC would restore libido.

Ive used alpha GPC and a lot of acetylcholine supplements. Defo mental thinking boost and faster thinking but not that much effect on libido.

 

[Satellite]

I agree with @haidut

Dry for the WIN!!

2% estrogen MAX for the WIN!!

I always feel my best, have the whitest eyes and teeth, and feel strongest when my estrogen is low, and my cortisol is regulated.

Sure, the studies this, the studies that etc., but for me I tend to think how I feel and my physical changes speaks more than some study (that was probably paid for).

I don't even need to add androgens, a slight shift in hormonal profile seems to boost andros enough naturally, so adding it just becomes insurance, the icing on the cake.

The more androgens I have the better I feel all around.

I think the key is ensuring the body uses them properly, keeping estrogen low and ensuring it gets removed from the body too, and then just control cortisol.
Poor estrogen metabolism is a problem.

Seems to work best for me anyhow.

The only thing I think estrogen is useful for is muscle building, and only because it keeps the muscle hydrated.
But you could just use creatine for that, so why even bother with all the bad effects.

 

[Satellite]

I also have to testify that I’ve done better when my blood estrogen is higher regards to energy and libido at least. Ive taken androsterone and on blood test it lowered my estrogen quite a lot. My libido went down. If I take zinc my libido tends to go down and energy. Now recently got hold of aromasin and been doing 5mg and tried 10mg and same effects libido goes down. So estrogen is 100% needed for libido at least. Seems go be some mechanism through NO as drugs like viagra etc stops working for people when they use AI or have low estrogen.

Not trying to be argumentative, but there may be something else at play or just your chemistry?
My libido goes down when I take androsterone too, but any other andro also.
And when I take them I noticed that if affects my prostate negatively too, so maybe it has more to do with that?

For example, I take a supplement (Thor's Hammer) that mimics viagra, steroids, AIs, SERM, and NO boost - designed for bodybuilders.
Nothing else gets my libido as high as that product, like it's insane, and it keeps my E and Cort low.
The creator says 10% or lower.
The first time I took it (a month supply), I didn't have much time to workout, if any.
I still lost fat and my muscles hardened!
My eyes got whiter and my teeth too, all good signs IMHO.

I wish there was more research on androgen receptors, etc., but activating those and turning off the estrogen receptors is part of the design of that product, it has several AIs, and a SERM I think.
The creator of that product (Dr. Todd Lee) is also anti-establishment like Peat.
I wouldn't say I am anti-establishment, but I tend to go with guys like them, because they think independently and soundly.
He said he stopped practicing medicine due to all the unethical practices of just pushing pharmaceuticals, etc.

Anyway, IMHO, it seems like common sense.
Blood levels is a decent indicator, but is it enough?
What's the point of having a ton of things floating around if it isn't being used.
The purpose of the cardio system is to pump blood so the body can use it, not just to swish it around, it needs to be used properly.
Like it needs to get pumped around good and plenty, used and absorbed maximally, but then pumped out completely, not just swishing around.
IDK about all things, but I read somewhere that when food is undigested and gets in the blood stream and just floats around, that is how one develops an allergy to it.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Not trying to be argumentative, but there may be something else at play or just your chemistry?
My libido goes down when I take androsterone too, but any other andro also.
And when I take them I noticed that if affects my prostate negatively too, so maybe it has more to do with that?

For example, I take a supplement (Thor's Hammer) that mimics viagra, steroids, AIs, SERM, and NO boost - designed for bodybuilders.
Nothing else gets my libido as high as that product, like it's insane, and it keeps my E and Cort low.
The creator says 10% or lower.
The first time I took it (a month supply), I didn't have much time to workout, if any.
I still lost fat and my muscles hardened!
My eyes got whiter and my teeth too, all good signs IMHO.

I wish there was more research on androgen receptors, etc., but activating those and turning off the estrogen receptors is part of the design of that product, it has several AIs, and a SERM I think.
The creator of that product (Dr. Todd Lee) is also anti-establishment like Peat.
I wouldn't say I am anti-establishment, but I tend to go with guys like them, because they think independently and soundly.
He said he stopped practicing medicine due to all the unethical practices of just pushing pharmaceuticals, etc.

Anyway, IMHO, it seems like common sense.
Blood levels is a decent indicator, but is it enough?
What's the point of having a ton of things floating around if it isn't being used.
The purpose of the cardio system is to pump blood so the body can use it, not just to swish it around, it needs to be used properly.
Like it needs to get pumped around good and plenty, used and absorbed maximally, but then pumped out completely, not just swishing around.
IDK about all things, but I read somewhere that when food is undigested and gets in the blood stream and just floats around, that is how one develops an allergy to it.

But lowering estrogen etc and increasing androgens is basically what aromasin does aswell. Besides just looked at thors hammer ingredients and ive tried all except macuna pruriens. I can understand how that gives you energy libido etc because that contains levodopa which converts to dopamine. But tong kat, chistance has limited evidence and I doubt these herbs have such estrogen lowering powers. Never heard any of the ingredients actually have AI abilitirs. From what Ive seen people have had barely noticable effects. And also claims to have nitrix oxide in the thors hammer but theres nothing except horny goat weed that contians pde5 inhibitor icariin that would increase nitrix oxide. Ive tried HGW before and you cant even compare it to something as viagra. It just seems like theyve taken 4 test boosting herbs thrown it into a mix. Worst is that it says proprietary blend which means they can have really low amounts of the active ingridients and still not tell you. Its like a scam thing. To me it has all the indications of a scam product. 5 random T herbs, proprietary blend and the name and pictures of ripped dudes or what ever and says its manufactured in china. If you also read reviews there tons of people claiming it does nothing.