Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism

[haidut]

Really nice find. Always thought that the body had sort of jing jang chemicals. I cant see estrogen basically having any potential good benefits for any animal since to me it sounds like a stress hormone. A hormone that increases fat deposits feels like a hormone where it’s purpose is to stock up energy for an emergency or energy for carrying a child in their body. Reducing estrogen with AI would in that case lower body fat since it tells the body hey we dont need to store fat for emergency we can channel it to building muscles. I think building muscle is the last thing the body prioritise after survival so reducing all stress hormones like estrogen, cortisol and even serotonin, prolactin which seems tied into the whole estrogen to prepare for child birth etc keep em low and the body will realize ok we can build muscles. Thyroid also fit in nicely to this type of thinking since its basically your metabolism knob and if you don’t eat the anabolic way and eat enough energy to support energy production and beyond that your body dont see any reason to funnel it towards anabolic processes like muscle building and eating to little energy (glucose) where the body has to breakdown tissue and supply its own energy and store some as fat incase of emergency cortisol and estrogen does just that. Its so straight forward and makes perfect logical sense and still science today just got it so wrong. We can sit here on a forum discuss these principles so easily while science cant even figure it out. Jesus christ its sad
In the end its just as simple as energy and anabolism having enough surplus of energy and catabolism being low on energy breaking down. Such easy concept but still so many got it wrong.

As Peat said once - estrogen is the hormone of new beginnings, of growth and replacement. So, great for short periods if facing issues like wounds, burns, bone damage/break, etc. But not something you want to get stuck in for longer as continually erasing what was built (high cell turnover) is basically the hallmark of cancer.

 

[haidut]

Excellent study. This part especially caught my eye-



When I went looking for the studies in the "Estrogen is critical for men" thread, I found the following study was the basis for the claim that "Estrogen reduces fat, especially belly fat"- Gonadal steroids and body composition, strength, and sexual function in men. - PubMed - NCBI

In the study, they used Goserelin Acetate on all the male subjects, in order to suppress endogenous Testosterone and Estrogen production. It works well for that, but guess what else it suppresses? Progesterone!

Goserelin Acetate (Zoladex®) - For Women | OncoLink

"About: Goserelin Acetate (Zoladex®) - For Women
While estrogen and progesterone may not actually cause breast cancer, they are necessary for the cancer to grow in some breast cancers. Estrogen and progesterone are female hormones produced by the ovaries. The production of these hormones can be stopped by surgically removing the ovaries or through medication therapy. A hormone called luteinizing hormone, which is produced by the pituitary gland, stimulates production of estrogen and progesterone by the ovaries. LHRH agonists stop the production of luteinizing hormone by the pituitary gland. This reduces the production of estrogen and progesterone. The cancer cells may then grow more slowly or stop growing altogether. Goserelin acetate is a type of LHRH agonist."

After giving all men Goserelin Acetate, they were split into groups that got various amounts of Testosterone (og, 1.25 g, 2.5 g, 5 g, or 10 g daily), and each of those groups were split into two, one getting the AI anastrozole, and the other nothing.

Not surprisingly, the groups that got the largest dose of Testosterone fared better in terms of strength, minimizing fat gain, and subjective scores about sex life. Those that didn't get Anastrozole gained less bodyfat than those getting the same level of Testosterone that did. The researchers conclude from this that Estrogen can prevent fat gain.

But again..... Estrogen isn't the only thing that Anastrozole inhibits. What else does it suppress? That's right, Progesterone!

Short-term anastrozole therapy reduces Ki-67 and progesterone receptor expression in invasive breast cancer: a prospective, placebo-controlled, dou... - PubMed - NCBI

Obviously, I think drawing the conclusion that "Estrogen prevents bodyfat" from a study that used both Goserelin Acetate and Anastrozole together is flawed. A better conclusion might be that it's better to use an aromatase inhibitor that does not suppress progesterone or androgen production.

Great point. I think too many times conclusions are drawn based on assumptions that a drug is specific, but as Peat said many times and we have seen so many times ourselves - it is next to impossible to develop a truly specific drug in a system that is fully interconnected. I suppose a more appropriate test would be with rodents who are grown to be aromatase deficient, or estrogen-receptor null. But then again, those animals would be mutants so not sure how reliable results from those experiments would be.

 

[haidut]

This is why I've always wondered why some don't use aromosin for after cycle or just standalone PED? do you believe in the estrogen rebound theory? specially with an already anti estrogenic diet with liver carrot? Dhea and preg while using aromasin could create the additional steroid pathway aromasin to block pathways to estrogen and keep a pathway toward test and 5ar steroids with it's half life maybe used 10mg every other day

That's pretty much what some of the latest endo studies are proposing - i.e. stop giving men TRT but focus on reducing estrogen/cortisol (which increase with age) and maybe add some precursors like pregnenolone/DHEA. It looks like even in very old males T levels come back to youthful levels if aromatase/cortisol is limited, suggesting the dysfunction is just chronic stress and not some genetic program or permanent damage making men hypogonadal.
If you look around on Google you will find several reports from bodybuilders achieving very high T levels with a low dose aromasin and some oral pregnenolone. So, it does seem to work and avoids many of the risks of TRT.

 

[haidut]

I feel best with my Estrogen a bit high (70 area). Previously when taking AI and keeping my e2 low was just a mess, horrible libido, joint pain. etc

Since I stopped using an AI to keep my e2 around 15-30 and let it rise to 70 range. my Morning wood has returned.

Crushing estrogen is a bad idea. We need eatrogen

How is your total T? High estrogen may give you good libido but that does not mean it is the optimal way to do it. High T with E2 in the bottom 25% also gives people great libido. This is the phenotype 20yo males have, together with higher progesterone.
High dose Masteron (drostanolone) is notorious for turning people into sexually berserk rhinos yet it crushes E2 (and E1) below detectable levels. In fact, about 20% of the people on whom drostanolone was tested back in the 1960s dropped out of the trials due to excessive libido. They could just not do anything except think about sex 24x7.
So, libido is probably not the best metric of estrogen's healthiness, and there are arguably healthier ways to achieve it. According to the study above even bone health can be perfectly maintained by non-aromatizable steroids like DHT or trenbolone, even when adding an AI.
Estrogen is THE primordial growth hormone. Growth, as in uncontrolled, de-differentiating type. The bad kind, the kind that kills if left unchecked for too long. I don't think estrogen should be crushed, but most people probably produce and carry around way more than what they need for optimal health. Increased peripheral aromatization is one of the earliest biomarkers of aging/disease.
Just my 2c.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

I got serious low E symptoms from taking large amounts of aspirin, zinc, and olive leaf extract for several months at the start of last year. By April I had come to find that I had the worst anhedonia and cracking joints of my life. Every morning, weak or no morning wood, and brutal bone pain for the first hour of waking up. I cut way back on the olive leaf extract (a strong aromatase inhibitor) and took a long break from zinc (foolishly was not taking with copper, was misguided by copper-phobia at the time), started taking copper, and started limiting aspirin to only when I needed pain relief; then slowly things started to improve over the course of 8 months. Addition of Boron is what got me back to feeling fine. Boron can raise both estrogen and testosterone.. well I am quite thankful for this because now I have my libido back. I think in men and women libido in general comes from an ideal pairing of Estradiol and Testoserone. It is pretty clear that for women typically they have the most libido around ovulation and this also happens to be when E2 is greatly higher, T spikes here as well but to a lesser degree. I also find it intriguing from the reading I have done that the T/E2 relationship shares many similarities with the Zinc/Copper relationship.

Sorry if this has already been referenced here, but I find this study to be pretty revealing:
NEJM - Error

 

[tankasnowgod]

I got serious low E symptoms from taking large amounts of aspirin, zinc, and olive leaf extract for several months at the start of last year. By April I had come to find that I had the worst anhedonia and cracking joints of my life. Every morning, weak or no morning wood, and brutal bone pain for the first hour of waking up. I cut way back on the olive leaf extract (a strong aromatase inhibitor) and took a long break from zinc (foolishly was not taking with copper, was misguided by copper-phobia at the time), started taking copper, and started limiting aspirin to only when I needed pain relief; then slowly things started to improve over the course of 8 months. Addition of Boron is what got me back to feeling fine. Boron can raise both estrogen and testosterone.. well I am quite thankful for this because now I have my libido back. I think in men and women libido in general comes from an ideal pairing of Estradiol and Testoserone. It is pretty clear that for women typically they have the most libido around ovulation and this also happens to be when E2 is greatly higher, T spikes here as well but to a lesser degree. I also find it intriguing from the reading I have done that the T/E2 relationship shares many similarities with the Zinc/Copper relationship.

Sorry if this has already been referenced here, but I find this study to be pretty revealing:
NEJM - Error

That's the same study I talk about earlier in this thread. In addition to inhibiting Estrogen, both Goserilin Acetate and Anatrozole inhibit Progesterone. Goserilin also inhibts Testosterone, and who knows what other hormones as well.

Also worth noting.... in the 5g Testosterone + AI group, Serum Estradiol is lower at 16 weeks than it was at baseline. In the 10g +AI group, it is about the same (slightly higher), but Testosterone is significantly higher than baseline.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

That's the same study I talk about earlier in this thread. In addition to inhibiting Estrogen, both Goserilin Acetate and Anatrozole inhibit Progesterone. Goserilin also inhibts Testosterone, and who knows what other hormones as well.

Also worth noting.... in the 5g Testosterone + AI group, Serum Estradiol is lower at 16 weeks than it was at baseline. In the 10g +AI group, it is about the same (slightly higher), but Testosterone is significantly higher than baseline.

Sorry. I read through this thread last night and lost track. Nice observations. Can you show me any studies linking progesterone to libido and body composition?

 

[tallglass13]

@haidut

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Human models of aromatase deficiency

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks @haidut.

What are your thoughts now on the various negative effects associated with the so called low estrogen ailment?
You said yourself that some is needed for proper male function but for some reason I never thought you believed it. In the following thread was mentioned a case of aromatase deficiency (the pictures are interesting as he doesn't look androgenic at all), shcultz had some interesting contribution as well. Downsides Of Low Estrogens

 

[haidut]

Thanks @haidut.

What are your thoughts now on the various negative effects associated with the so called low estrogen ailment?
You said yourself that some is needed for proper male function but for some reason I never thought you believed it. In the following thread was mentioned a case of aromatase deficiency (the pictures are interesting as he doesn't look androgenic at all), shcultz had some interesting contribution as well. Downsides Of Low Estrogens

I think the *zole drugs have a number of other negative effects we are just starting to learn about. Some AI like exemestane (in doses below 25mg daily) are known to not only avoid most of the negative side effects of AI but even increase libido and improve bone/muscle health. As I mentioned in a post further up - estrogen should not be crushed completely bust most people probably carry more than they need and the increased E/T ratio negatively affects thyroid and adrenal function (DHEA and progesterone synthesis) and accelerates aging.
Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Either Muscle Or Bone Growth / Anabolism
Overall, I think the negative effects of many AI drugs were used as an excuse to blame low estrogen for the issues when it fact it is the toxicities of those drugs causing many of the problems. The inhibition of progesterone synthesis by *zoles that @tankasnowgod posted above could easily explain many of the bad effects from AI therapy. And again, those negative effects seem to be absent with other AI like (lower dose) exemestane.

 

[Fractality]

No.

Masteron and Proviron don’t have this effect.

Do you know that for a fact? I wonder what is unique about trenbolone that it contributes to neurodegeneration?

 

[CLASH]

@haidut @aguilaroja
So for a practical application considering the hepatotoxicity of the majority of the synthetic AAS, to optimize the hormonal profile of a man over the course of his life without inducing suppression what would a general stack look like? Perhaps a combination of DHT, pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA? Also, can you guys talk about the build up effect of these steroids if used consistently?

 

[Douglas Ek]

Sorry. I read through this thread last night and lost track. Nice observations. Can you show me any studies linking progesterone to libido and body composition?

The reason you got low libido and joint cracking was because you depleted you copper. Copper deficiency causes joint problems and cracking in joints. Zinc in supplemental doses over 15mg a day depletes copper fast. The symptoms are not from low E. Trust me coz Ive done the exact same thing as you and tested both my E and copper and my copper, ceruloplasmin was low and my Estradiol was high. Taking androsterone lowered my estrogen in half and didnt feel any side effects from it. Promise you can take both aspirin and higher dose of olive extracy without the zinc and you wouldnt get the same symptoms. Try taking high dose zinc again without copper youll get slapped back into joint cracking from copper deficiency trust me ive actually tried it again just to really see that it was the zinc causing this. My recommendation is to never supplement zinc. You get plenty in western diet. Eat meat, shell fish, oysters and liver and youll be good.

 

[Douglas Ek]

@haidut @aguilaroja
So for a practical application considering the hepatotoxicity of the majority of the synthetic AAS, to optimize the hormonal profile of a man over the course of his life without inducing suppression what would a general stack look like? Perhaps a combination of DHT, pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA? Also, can you guys talk about the build up effect of these steroids if used consistently?

I think a low dose of aromasin 5mg and maybe low dose proviron like 5-10mg. Androsterone be good to instead of proviron and transfermal DHEA & Preg low dose aswell ofc. Like @haidut mentioned so many times lowering the dose of most steroids is a good way to not get the suppresive effects and also minimize/prevent hepatotoxicity. From the mentioned above proviron might be the only weak hepatoxic aas mentioned but I doubt that in the doses Ive mentioned its very small as people use it in 100mg + and barely then get liver problems. But I still believe that combination of low dose aromasin and proviron would sky rocket your own testosterone production since they are completely active in those low doses with minimim suppressive effects and would reduce both estrogen, SHBG and cortisol by a lot. Obviously consuming lots of sugars on these steroids to prime for the extra need and prevent cortisol release.

 

[boxers]

Very good information here,
Lately i have been experimenting with a compounded testosterone cream applied to penis and scrotum for the dht benefits.. this seems to naturally keep estrogen low compared to testosterone injections

 

[Captain_Coconut]

The reason you got low libido and joint cracking was because you depleted you copper. Copper deficiency causes joint problems and cracking in joints. Zinc in supplemental doses over 15mg a day depletes copper fast. The symptoms are not from low E. Trust me coz Ive done the exact same thing as you and tested both my E and copper and my copper, ceruloplasmin was low and my Estradiol was high. Taking androsterone lowered my estrogen in half and didnt feel any side effects from it. Promise you can take both aspirin and higher dose of olive extracy without the zinc and you wouldnt get the same symptoms. Try taking high dose zinc again without copper youll get slapped back into joint cracking from copper deficiency trust me ive actually tried it again just to really see that it was the zinc causing this. My recommendation is to never supplement zinc. You get plenty in western diet. Eat meat, shell fish, oysters and liver and youll be good.

Zinc had something to do with it, zinc effects hormones as well, I also think too much vitamin d was problematic. Joint aches and anhedonia did not get very bad until introducing the olive leaf extract with large amounts of aspirin, where as I had been on the 50mg zinc dose for a couple months before that. Stopping zinc and correcting the copper deficiency helped somewhat. Thats my anecdotal information. I could not afford to get labs done, but all the sympotoms matched with low e. During my recovery from zinc and olive leaf, I still adhered to a general peaty diet and other peaty pro-t / anti-estrogen supplements. The joint popping lessened with copper, however my libido diminished to not having any sexual urges for a full month and declining all opportunities to have sex, in fact I couldn’t really get it up towards the end of that month. I’m in my late 30s and this had never once been a problem for me before. I think taking 25mg pregnenolone with 5mg dhea daily for that month and the month before had a big hand in creating the low e state. I had been taking between 4 and 8mg of copper daily for 6 months by then. Boron immediately turned my libido back on, where as playing with all the other minerals and vitamins and macros did nothing. Stopping pregnenolone completely has helped too. I was specifically using pregnenolone for its aromatase inhibition and thought it would be mellow.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Aromatase knockout mice study abstracts:

Sexual partner preference requires a functional aromatase (cyp19) gene in male mice. - PubMed - NCBI

Sexual dimorphism in the glucose homeostasis phenotype of the Aromatase Knockout (ArKO) mice. - PubMed - NCBI

Alteration in sex-specific behaviors in male mice lacking the aromatase gene. - PubMed - NCBI

Estrogen and oxytocin involvement in social preference in male mice: a study using a novel long-term social preference paradigm with aromatase, estro... - PubMed - NCBI

Bone phenotype of the aromatase deficient mouse
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076001001303

Aromatase-deficient (ArKO) mice have a phenotype of increased adiposity

 

[Captain_Coconut]

High dose Masteron (drostanolone) is notorious for turning people into sexually berserk rhinos yet it crushes E2 (and E1) below detectable levels. In fact, about 20% of the people on whom drostanolone was tested back in the 1960s dropped out of the trials due to excessive libido. They could just not do anything except think about sex 24x7.

I’m interested to know more details. E.g. respective percent of men and women that dropped out. Also what the rate of erectile dysfunction was... thinking about sex 24x7 is very different from sexual ability.

 

[RisingSun]

@haidut @aguilaroja
So for a practical application considering the hepatotoxicity of the majority of the synthetic AAS, to optimize the hormonal profile of a man over the course of his life without inducing suppression what would a general stack look like? Perhaps a combination of DHT, pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA? Also, can you guys talk about the build up effect of these steroids if used consistently?

When your body senses external DHEA or Pregnenolone, it will suppress gonads activity to some degree as it no longer requires endogenous production.

No matter how you look at it, exogenous hormones suppress you, whether upstream or downstream.