Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism

[Soundios]

Not trying to be argumentative, but there may be something else at play or just your chemistry?
My libido goes down when I take androsterone too, but any other andro also.
And when I take them I noticed that if affects my prostate negatively too, so maybe it has more to do with that?

For example, I take a supplement (Thor's Hammer) that mimics viagra, steroids, AIs, SERM, and NO boost - designed for bodybuilders.
Nothing else gets my libido as high as that product, like it's insane, and it keeps my E and Cort low.
The creator says 10% or lower.
The first time I took it (a month supply), I didn't have much time to workout, if any.
I still lost fat and my muscles hardened!
My eyes got whiter and my teeth too, all good signs IMHO.

I wish there was more research on androgen receptors, etc., but activating those and turning off the estrogen receptors is part of the design of that product, it has several AIs, and a SERM I think.
The creator of that product (Dr. Todd Lee) is also anti-establishment like Peat.
I wouldn't say I am anti-establishment, but I tend to go with guys like them, because they think independently and soundly.
He said he stopped practicing medicine due to all the unethical practices of just pushing pharmaceuticals, etc.

Anyway, IMHO, it seems like common sense.
Blood levels is a decent indicator, but is it enough?
What's the point of having a ton of things floating around if it isn't being used.
The purpose of the cardio system is to pump blood so the body can use it, not just to swish it around, it needs to be used properly.
Like it needs to get pumped around good and plenty, used and absorbed maximally, but then pumped out completely, not just swishing around.
IDK about all things, but I read somewhere that when food is undigested and gets in the blood stream and just floats around, that is how one develops an allergy to it.

Are you referring to the Thor's hammer that contains Arimistane?

 

[Douglas Ek]

Are you referring to the Thor's hammer that contains Arimistane?

Nah i think it’s the herbal one if you search for it you can buy on amazone. Which one do you mean?

 

[Satellite]

But lowering estrogen etc and increasing androgens is basically what aromasin does aswell. Besides just looked at thors hammer ingredients and ive tried all except macuna pruriens. I can understand how that gives you energy libido etc because that contains levodopa which converts to dopamine. But tong kat, chistance has limited evidence and I doubt these herbs have such estrogen lowering powers. Never heard any of the ingredients actually have AI abilitirs. From what Ive seen people have had barely noticable effects. And also claims to have nitrix oxide in the thors hammer but theres nothing except horny goat weed that contians pde5 inhibitor icariin that would increase nitrix oxide. Ive tried HGW before and you cant even compare it to something as viagra. It just seems like theyve taken 4 test boosting herbs thrown it into a mix. Worst is that it says proprietary blend which means they can have really low amounts of the active ingridients and still not tell you. Its like a scam thing. To me it has all the indications of a scam product. 5 random T herbs, proprietary blend and the name and pictures of ripped dudes or what ever and says its manufactured in china. If you also read reviews there tons of people claiming it does nothing.

Whoops! That is the wrong product.
Didn't realize there was another Thor's Hammer ha!
I guess it makes sense, he didn't create his product for mass production.

This one: Test Booster Combo Pack
His description is fully referenced.

And yeah, I was going to mention the hormonal shift also enabling the shift to dopamine dominance.
Androgens and dopamine is the key to good libido IMHO - mind/body connection.
To clarify, even when I take "wet" steroids and have plenty of estrogen and noticing it by the changes in my body, personality, etc. - I still have no libido.
Further, I notice that whenever I do a cycle and I get shutdown, my prostate also gets impacted negatively - this happens with wet hormones too.

When I take Thor's Hammer though, I have good all around sexual functioning.
I.e. hormonal shift to more androgens, better utilization of those androgens, lower E, controlled/lower Cort, higher dopamine.
My physical changes are similar to steroids (although not as much as it isn't as strong) and my libido skyrockets.
This also holds true for any other supplement stack I take that creates the same biological environment - it is just that Thor's Hammer works the best for me personally.

Thor's Hammer utilizes Sodium D Aspartate - the only version of D-Aspartic Acid that actually works.
Sodium D Aspartate also impacts the brain's cognitive functioning and also the parts of the brain regulating hormones (LH and FSH).

Proper men's health needs to address all of these things.
Further, IMHO, it is not enough to merely increase blood levels if the body doesn't even use it properly, that makes no sense to me.

And part of me does not care what "studies" say.
When these things are addressed properly, I feel, look, and act healthier - the real proof IMO.

D-Aspartic Acid Review: Na+D-Aspartate
D Aspartic Acid Cycling Is Necessary
D-Aspartic Acid: The Best Test Booster

Also, Macuna Puriens is so worth a try - it works much better for me than stinging nettle, I am glad I tried it.
I have been using Steel supplement's Rested AF before bed for the past month and I get serious morning wood.
Sometimes I will wake up at night to urinate and have a massive hard on - it is still hard when I go back to bed... TMI sorry! lol
However, this product doesn't boost my libido, but seems good for dopamine, blood flow, and natural test boost at night when cortisol is high.
When I wake up I feel not only rested but have good mental clarity, even more so 1-2 hours after waking.

 

[Satellite]

Are you referring to the Thor's hammer that contains Arimistane?

Yes! Do you take it?

 

[Soundios]

Yes! Do you take it?

No I've never tried it, although you're the second person to my knowledge that I recall recommending it.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Yes! Do you take it?

Please linl this product

 

[haidut]

Haidut, what would you estimate young males body fat % at and do you think this is in part why they have a favorable hormonal profile?

I think lean, young males are probably around 8% or below. And yes, the less fat you carry the less androgens will be converted into estrogen through aromatization.

 

[Lyall]

I think lean, young males are probably around 8% or below. And yes, the less fat you carry the less androgens will be converted into estrogen through aromatization.

Thank you, that is quite LEAN! I imagine very few if any adult males maintain that body fat percentage outside of bodybuilding prep. Simply they would be ravenously hungry all the time and would settle at 16% +.

 

[Lyall]

@haidut Could you interpret the leanness of the mice in the study with the TREN and estrogen suppression influencing the energy expenditure of the equation? It would also seem there is a substantial partitioning effect of sending nutrients to muscles instead of fat stores.

 

[haidut]

@haidut Could you interpret the leanness of the mice in the study with the TREN and estrogen suppression influencing the energy expenditure of the equation? It would also seem there is a substantial partitioning effect of sending nutrients to muscles instead of fat stores.

I think it is a testament to the much more potent anti-cortisol effects or TREN (compared to T) and combined with reduced FAR due to blocked estrogen, the nutrients either go to muscle building or get oxidized, but not much towards storage.

 

[AlphaCog]

Is Trenbolone a peaty steroid?

 

[AlphaCog]

How about Oxandrolone?

Nvm read this.

Thanks for the comments. I think the issues with libido and joints from AI depend heavily on the AI used. The *zoles like the one used in this study seem to be the worst. Lower dose exemestane (5mg-6mg) which seems to achieve about 60% reduction in estrogen levels (both E1 and E2) has not been associated with such complaints. Maybe it is due to the fact that exemestane metabolizes into 6-methylene-boldenone and boldenone has been shown to improve joint health and libido even in people taking AI. The non-steroidal *zoles have no such side benefit.
And yes, definitely not recommending using R1881 or any other 17-alpha-methylated steroid. Among the most hepatotoxic chemicals. Second worst are the 7-alpha methylated ones (trestolone, mibolerone, etc), third-worst are the 2-oxa (oxandrolone), and perhaps the least dangerous (but still worthy of caution) are the 1-alpha and 2-alpha methylated ones (Proviron, drostanolone). For the record, even Proviron has reports of liver toxicity, leaving drostanolone as probably the only synthetic, FDA-approved, AAS without known liver toxicity. The studies on breast cancer with drostanolone back in the 1960s used 50mg-100mg daily with no serious side effects, which is still a huge dose considering the steroid is just 2a-methyl-DHT. So, in more acceptable doses similar to the ones for Proviron (10mg-20mg daily) it should be relatively safe.

 

[Murtaza]

Is Trenbolone a peaty steroid?

Bump. Wondering about this too

 

[ShotTrue]

How about Oxandrolone?

Nvm read this.

Inb4 exemestane made my knees burn for 4 days from 12.5 mg

 

[Murtaza]

Is Trenbolone a peaty steroid?

We know its toxic orally so IM is the only option i guess. @haidut can it be safely taken? I know the bodybuilding community overdo everything so i guess dosing would be different

 

[ShotTrue]

We know its toxic orally so IM is the only option i guess. @haidut can it be safely taken? I know the bodybuilding community overdo everything so i guess dosing would be different

trenoblone was made to bulk up cows and its usually injected I thought. Considering it causes the most mental effects I highly doubt it

 

[Broken man]

I think could be good read. Long-Term Effects of Castration on the Skeleton of Male Rhesus Monkeys (Macaca mulatta)

 

[ShotTrue]

I have had my eye on posting this study for at least 3 years now but something more important always came up, so I kept putting it off. However, the recent thread posted on the forum about how estrogen is "essential" for health convinced me it is way overdue that I post something on this topic, as I promised in the post below.
Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men
I am sure by now all forum users are aware of the mainstream medical claim that estrogen is absolutely "essential" for bone health. The increased incidence of osteomalacia/osteopenia and osteoporosis after menopause are explained as due to deficiency of estrogen and millions of women are put on HRT with estrogen in the hope that their bones will recover. Peat mentioned tongue in cheek several times in his articles that doctors conveniently ignore the fact that estrogen potently stimulates prolactin release, and the latter is one of the most potent bone catabolic hormones. However, direct evidence showing estrogen is not needed for bone health is sparse, possibly because of the complete taboo of attacking the dogma of estrogen's role in bone health.
In addition to the purported "benefits" of estrogen for bone health, a similar myth circulates in sports and bodybuilding circles. Part of that myth is illustrated in the thread above - i.e. that without estrogen men and women get fat and and their muscles cannot grow. Bodybuilders seem especially affected by that myth, illustrated by the design of cycles and PCT regimens so that estrogen is left untouched during a cycle and only partially inhibited during PCT in order to preserve its "benefits". I think some of that myth stems from the usage of both an AAS and estrogen in combination in the livestock industry in order to maximize growth. However, even the livestock studies clearly explain that the contribution of estrogen to growth of the animal is mostly in the form of fat and water retention, not muscle.
Anyways, I hope that the study below will give the estrogen-backers some food for thought. It showed directly that estrogen is not needed for muscle or bone growth, and anabolic effects of steroids on muscle/bone to be the same without estrogen. Actually, the increase in muscle mass and the decrease in fat mass was augmented when the androgen was combined with inhibiting estrogen synthesis (5% bigger muscle growth and 12% bigger fat loss). The reason I like the study so much is that it went a step further than other estrogen-blocking experiments. One of the steroids used to increase bone/muscle growth was Trenbolone. For those who do not know, trenbolone is not only devoid of estrogenic effects, it is actually a potent progestin with 3-4 times stronger effect at PR than progesterone itself. It is also about 50% more potent agonist at AR than even DHT. The combination of potent progestogenic and androgenic effects, combined with the fact that trenbolone cannot be aromatized, results in one of the most potent anti-estrogenic chemicals known. These potent anti-estrogenic effects were the reason why the orally bioavailable version of trenbolone known as R1881 was studied as treatment for advanced/terminal breast cancer back in the 1960s and 1970s.
Metribolone - Wikipedia
"...Metribolone (developmental code name R1881), also known as methyltrienolone, is a synthetic and orally active anabolic–androgenic steroid (AAS) and a 17α-alkylated nandrolone (19-nortestosterone) derivative which was never marketed for medical use but has been widely used in scientific research as a hot ligand in androgen receptor (AR) ligand binding assays (LBAs) and as a photoaffinity label for the AR.[1][2][3] It was investigated briefly for the treatment of advanced breast cancer in women in the late 1960s and early 1970s but was found to produce signs of severe hepatotoxicity at very low dosages, and its development was subsequently discontinued."

So, not only did the study use a potent androgenic and anti-estrogenic steroid like trenbolone but it also combined it with an aromatase inhibitor (AI). And what do you think the negative effects of this complete blockade of estrogen on bone/muscle health were? None. Nada. Zilch. To make matters worse for the estrogen-backers, the AI drug (anastrozole, AN) used was administered in an absolutely massive dose, equivalent to 10mg-15mg daily for a human. For comparison, most bodybuilders use 0.5mg-1mg daily even in severe cases of estrogen elevations resulting in gyno and even lactation. At a dose of 10mg-15mg daily, AN will tank estrogen levels by more than 90%.
Finally, and perhaps most tellingly, trenbolone by itself led to only a non-significant reductions in fat mass. However, adding the AI to trenbolone resulted in significant fat reduction of 31% compared to untreated animals, and the fat mass in the trenbolone + AI group was about 7%-9% lower than even the control (healthy) group. So much for "blocking estrogen will make us fat" myth...

EDIT (1/18/19): If even that evidence against estrogen is enough, here is the sister thread I posted a few days after this one showing that blocking estrogen signalling in the brain was shockingly anabolic for both muscle and bones in females.
Blocking Estrogen In Brain Strikingly Anabolic For Female Muscles / Bones

EDIT (1/19/2019): Another forum user posted a human study on effects of AI drugs on bone health. Hidden in that study was a gem quote that the group receiving only an AI had both increases in muscle mass and decreases in fat mass, and it was the only group that experienced these effects. Testosterone administration on its own or the placebo group saw no such benefits. Perfect corroboration of the study below.
Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Either Muscle Or Bone Growth / Anabolism

@AretnaP @Wagner83 @Lokzo @RisingSun @jb116 @tankasnowgod @opethfeldt

Influence of aromatase inhibition on the bone-protective effects of testosterone. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Both androgens and estrogens influence skeletal development and maintenance in males.(1, 2) In older men, hypogonadism [i.e., low circulating total/bioavailable testosterone (T)] is associated with reduced BMD (3, 4) and increased fracture risk (5), despite elderly men experiencing an elevated estradiol (E2)/T ratio within the circulation(6); suggesting that bone loss in hypogonadal men results primarily from a T deficiency. Within this population, T administration dose-dependently improves BMD, with physiologic T replacement therapy providing modest enhancement of bone mass and higher-than-replacement T required for more robust musculoskeletal and lipolytic results.(7, 8) However, it remains unclear whether the skeletal protection induced by T administration occurs directly, via androgen-mediated actions, or indirectly, via estrogen-mediated actions that occur following the gonadal and/or tissue-specific aromatization of T to E2. (9) For example, we previously demonstrated that supraphysiologic T administration dramatically increases circulating and intraskeletal androgen concentrations and completely prevents bone loss in ORX rats, without altering circulating or intraskeletal E2 concentrations.(10, 11) In addition, several clinical studies have reported that elderly men experience very minimal to no bone loss following pharmacologic aromatase inhibition, despite reductions in circulating E2 ranging from 30-50%. (12-14) Interestingly, administration of either dihydrotestosterone (DHT, a potent non-aromatizable androgenic metabolite of T) (15) or trenbolone (a synthetic non-estrogenic, non-aromatizable androgen) (16) completely prevents ORX-induced bone loss in skeletally-mature rodents, providing further evidence that elevated systemic and/or skeletal-specific E2 is not required for androgen induced bone maintenance or that only a very minimal threshold concentration of E2 may be required for bone health in adult males(5)."

"...µCT analysis of the distal femur indicated that cancellous BV/TV was 25% lower in ORX animals compared with SHAMs (p < 0.001, Figure 1) and AN co-administration did not alter this effect. This difference was characterized by a 20% reduction in Tb.N (p < 0.001) and a 20% increase in Tb.Sp (p < 0.01), with no difference in Tb.Th. Both TE and TREN completely prevented cancellous bone loss, with BV/TV being 23-35% higher than ORX animals (p < 0.01, Table 2). Ultimately, all cancellous bone variables in androgen treated animals were maintained at the level of SHAMs, with no differences resulting from co-administration of AN."

"...Cancellous (medullary) vBMD was ~20% lower at the distal femoral metaphysis and at the femoral neck in ORX animals compared with SHAMs (p < 0.001, Table 3); AN co-administration did not alter this effect. Both TE and TREN administration completely prevented these reductions, with cancellous vBMD values being 21-26% higher at the distal femoral metaphysis (p < 0.01) and 22-30% higher at the femoral neck compared with ORX animals (p < 0.01) and not different than SHAMs (Table 3). AN co-administration did not alter these androgen induced effects."

"...LABC mass was 45% lower in ORX and ORX+AN animals compared with SHAMs (p < 0.001, Supplemental Table 1). Conversely, LABC mass in TE and TREN animals was 38-42% greater than SHAMs (p < 0.001) and >2.5 times larger than ORX animals (p < 0.001), a result that was not inhibited by AN coadministration. Retroperitoneal fat mass was 22-24% higher in ORX and ORX+AN animals compared with SHAMs (p < 0.05, Supplemental Table 1). All androgen treatments prevented the ORX-induced increase in retroperitoneal fat mass, with fat mass being 33% lower in ORX+TE (p < 0.01), 23% lower in ORX+TE+AN (p < 0.05), 19% lower in ORX+TREN (non-significant), and 31% lower in ORX+TREN+AN animals (p < 0.01)."

I definitely suffered from abdominal obesity when I've used aromatase inhibitors too much. Complete loss of energy etc. Also in these studies they are taking bone-promoting synthetic androgens. Also you do point here "skeletal-specific E2 is not required for androgen induced bone maintenance or that only a very minimal threshold concentration of E2 may be required for bone health in adult males(5)."

Can you really say estrogen is not needed for bones when they are using tren which builds up bones at the same time? Also from my experience aromasin usually comes in doses of 12.5 to 25 mg and letrozole at 2.5 mg, so most bodybuilders do use those large doses just once at week or so

 

[baccheion]

HGH/IGF-1/progesterone is associated with increased bone density.

With lower estrogen, there'd need to be something to normalize insulin (and cortisol). Would DHEA do this on its own or is the effect related to downstream metabolites?

 

[ShotTrue]

HGH/IGF-1/progesterone is associated with increased bone density.

With lower estrogen, there'd need to be something to normalize insulin (and cortisol). Would DHEA do this on its own or is the effect related to downstream metabolites?

Why do all this side stepping, trying to artificially replace what is lost from removing normal levels of estrogen? I agree with what @RisingSun says, that supplementing hormones will suppress your natural production