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Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Either Muscle Or Bone Growth / Anabolism

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Jan 16, 2019.

  1. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Thanks.
    I think the fact that he had very high LH/FSH (pituitary hormones) alone can explain many of his ills. High androgens combined with high LH/FSH is basically "compensated hypogonadism", so definitely not a healthy state. As I mentioned earlier, the healthy phenotype is the 20 year old male - high T, E2 in the bottom 25%, and progesterone at the same level as girls (except around menstruation).
     
  2. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, that's right. Nowhere did the study or I said it should be crushed. The message is more along the lines of the official version we are being fed by Pharma and doctors that estrogen is vital for bone and muscle health is likely bunk.
    Again, the study that Lokzo posted illustrates this perfectly, at least as far as muscles and fat is concerned. I will dig more into this because I suspect the main factor for bone health is progesterone, which the AI likely suppress and this is what accounts for the negative effects on bones.
     
  3. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    Actually I was looking up macroorchidism on wikipedia because of your post and it says that men with aromatase deficiency often have Osteoporosis ...Can someone make sense of that maybe it inhibited some other hormone as well ( progesterone) ?

    Also this:
    OMIM Entry - # 613546 - AROMATASE DEFICIENCY
    "Their clinical symptoms include tall stature, delayed skeletal maturation, delayed epiphyseal closure, bone pain, eunuchoid body proportions, and excess adiposity. Estrogen replacement therapy reverses the symptoms in males and females (summary by Jones et al., 2007)."
     
  4. Captain_Coconut

    Captain_Coconut Member

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    I know, I am not accusing you of having said that. I wasn’t putting words in your mouth, however in many of the studies referenced there was little to no estrogen.
     
  5. baccheion

    baccheion Member

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    Bottom 25% meaning 7.6 - 16.35 pg/mL (7.6 - 42.6)? How high is high? 700-900 ng/dL? Four digits? Less? More? Are there sites that share these stats? Is this combination desirable at any age? 30s?
     
  6. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    What makes you think low estrogen alone is the cause of the bone pathology? Where is the evidence for that? Why not the 3-fold elevations in LH/FSH? Also, did you see this other thread?
    Blocking Estrogen In Brain Strikingly Anabolic For Female Muscles / Bones
     
  7. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Well, you're free to draw whatever conclusions you want. I stand by what I said in my post above, and that would include his bones- "His state is no doubt due to high androgens, low estrogen, and other hormones that are likely very low, or very high. He may also be suffering from various vitamin and nutrient deficiencies that would not affect a normal person, similar to how Burr's rats displayed nutrient deficiencies due to their elevated metabolism from eating a diet "deficient" in "essential" fatty acids."
     
  8. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I prefer the phenotype of the young male - T in the upper 20% of normal, estrogen in the bottom 20% of normal, and progesterone at the level of non-menstruating females. Our progesterone greatly declines with age, similar to DHEA and pregnenolone, and this decline is likely involved in some of the bone deterioration ascribed to estrogen deficiency.
    Pregnenolone, Progesterone And DHEA Drop, Cortisol Rises In Aging
     
  9. Captain_Coconut

    Captain_Coconut Member

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    Yup, even with all that dht floating around... seems estrogen is needed for bones.
     
  10. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    This is related to post above:

    "While only 1 affected male had been reported, normal genitalia were noted at birth, normal pubertal development occurred, and adult stature was extremely tall (greater than 3 SD) with osteoporosis, macroorchidism, and infertility (8530621] [8772541] ["

    "demonstrates that androgens are not solely responsible for the establishment of peak bone mass in males; a man with these 2 genetic disorders showed osteoporosis. found that treatment for 3 years with conjugated estrogen resulted in restoration of bone mass in the patient reported by Morishima et al. (1995) with aromatase deficiency"

    OMIM Entry - # 613546 - AROMATASE DEFICIENCY

    Should he not have stronger bones ?
     
  11. Captain_Coconut

    Captain_Coconut Member

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  12. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I mentioned this in some of my other comments. Look at the 3-fold elevations in the LH/FSH. That cannot be good. We also don't know what other pituitary hormones were elevated (CRH maybe) which is also very detrimental for bones.
     
  13. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    Well, before I would jump to that conclusion, I would like to know his levels of Vitamins D, A, K2, mineral levels of calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, and hormone levels of prolactin and PTH.... but, that's just me.
     
  14. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    In higher doses exemestane actually suppresses T, DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone, and even cortisol. Any of these could account for bone pain. It is an androgen after all and beyound certain doses starts to exert negative feedback on all steroid synthesis. In lower doses it does not seem to do that and incidentally bodybuilders love it in doses below 12mg daily and say it has none of the side effects of other AI.
     
  15. Captain_Coconut

    Captain_Coconut Member

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    I see. I thought the point of presenting exemestane studies was to show the flaw in the zole studies; Regarding supression of progesterone.
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, in low doses it does not have steroid suppression effect (except estrogen) and most studies doing comparison between exemestane and *zoles found the the latter to be worse for bones. But the studies with 5mg and 10mg exemestane found no adverse effects on bones despite suppressing estrogen by more than 70%. So, the optimal dose of exemestane is somewhere in the 5mg-10mg range, which is what the bodybuilders seem to have found by trial and error as well. At those doses it seems to mostly affect estrogen and not much else.
    http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/clincanres/3/7/1101.full.pdf

    At the commonly used doses in studies (usually 25mg daily) its effects on estrogen are the same as lower doses but now starts powerfully suppressing the entire steroidogenesis pathway.
     
  17. Mauritio

    Mauritio Member

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    Got you. It might also be related to his dysfunctional metabolism:

    "The patient had a complex dysmetabolic syndrome characterized by insulin resistance, diabetes mellitus type 2, acanthosis nigricans, liver steatohepatitis, and signs of precocious atherogenesis"
     
  18. Captain_Coconut

    Captain_Coconut Member

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    Nice, thanks for the clarification.
     
  19. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Oh yeah, any of these could be the cause of bone issues. I think the diabetes and liver issues are especially relevant as potential causes.
     
  20. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    More complicated that some people are thinking in this thread because two estrogen lowering substances will not have the same effects when they are in excess...
     
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