Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism

[haidut]

I don't believe so. Here's a case study where they look at both a brother and sister that were born with Aromatase deficeincy-

Aromatase deficiency in male and female siblings caused by a novel mutation and the physiological role of estrogens

Here is what they state about the brother-

"He was sexually fully mature and had macroorchidism. The plasma concentrations of testosterone (2015 ng/dL), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (125 ng/dL), and androstenedione (335 ng/dL) were elevated; estradiol and estrone levels were less than 7 pg/mL. Plasma FSH and LH concentrations were more than 3 times the mean value. Plasma PRL was low; serum insulin-like growth factor I and GH-binding protein were normal"

His testosterone is elevated higher than even what men on TRT generally achieve. His plasma FSH and LH are 3 times normal. His state is no doubt due to high androgens, low estrogen, and other hormones that are likely very low, or very high. He may also be suffering from various vitamin and nutrient deficiencies that would not affect a normal person, similar to how Burr's rats displayed nutrient deficiencies due to their elevated metabolism from eating a diet "deficient" in "essential" fatty acids.

Thanks.
I think the fact that he had very high LH/FSH (pituitary hormones) alone can explain many of his ills. High androgens combined with high LH/FSH is basically "compensated hypogonadism", so definitely not a healthy state. As I mentioned earlier, the healthy phenotype is the 20 year old male - high T, E2 in the bottom 25%, and progesterone at the same level as girls (except around menstruation).

 

[haidut]

I must have misinterpreted the title of the thread to mean estrogen is of no use to bone health.

Yes, that's right. Nowhere did the study or I said it should be crushed. The message is more along the lines of the official version we are being fed by Pharma and doctors that estrogen is vital for bone and muscle health is likely bunk.
Again, the study that Lokzo posted illustrates this perfectly, at least as far as muscles and fat is concerned. I will dig more into this because I suspect the main factor for bone health is progesterone, which the AI likely suppress and this is what accounts for the negative effects on bones.

 

[Mauritio]

I don't believe so. Here's a case study where they look at both a brother and sister that were born with Aromatase deficeincy-

Aromatase deficiency in male and female siblings caused by a novel mutation and the physiological role of estrogens

Here is what they state about the brother-

"He was sexually fully mature and had macroorchidism. The plasma concentrations of testosterone (2015 ng/dL), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (125 ng/dL), and androstenedione (335 ng/dL) were elevated; estradiol and estrone levels were less than 7 pg/mL. Plasma FSH and LH concentrations were more than 3 times the mean value. Plasma PRL was low; serum insulin-like growth factor I and GH-binding protein were normal"

His testosterone is elevated higher than even what men on TRT generally achieve. His plasma FSH and LH are 3 times normal. His state is no doubt due to high androgens, low estrogen, and other hormones that are likely very low, or very high. He may also be suffering from various vitamin and nutrient deficiencies that would not affect a normal person, similar to how Burr's rats displayed nutrient deficiencies due to their elevated metabolism from eating a diet "deficient" in "essential" fatty acids.

Actually I was looking up macroorchidism on wikipedia because of your post and it says that men with aromatase deficiency often have Osteoporosis ...Can someone make sense of that maybe it inhibited some other hormone as well ( progesterone) ?

Also this:
OMIM Entry - # 613546 - AROMATASE DEFICIENCY
"Their clinical symptoms include tall stature, delayed skeletal maturation, delayed epiphyseal closure, bone pain, eunuchoid body proportions, and excess adiposity. Estrogen replacement therapy reverses the symptoms in males and females (summary by Jones et al., 2007)."

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Yes, that's right. Nowhere did the study or I said it should be crushed. The message is more along the lines of the official version we are being fed by Pharma and doctors that estrogen is vital for bone and muscle health is likely bunk.

I know, I am not accusing you of having said that. I wasn’t putting words in your mouth, however in many of the studies referenced there was little to no estrogen.

 

[baccheion]

Thanks.
I think the fact that he had very high LH/FSH (pituitary hormones) alone can explain many of his ills. High androgens combined with high LH/FSH is basically "compensated hypogonadism", so definitely not a healthy state. As I mentioned earlier, the healthy phenotype is the 20 year old male - high T, E2 in the bottom 25%, and progesterone at the same level as girls (except around menstruation).

Bottom 25% meaning 7.6 - 16.35 pg/mL (7.6 - 42.6)? How high is high? 700-900 ng/dL? Four digits? Less? More? Are there sites that share these stats? Is this combination desirable at any age? 30s?

 

[haidut]

You left out the good part about his bones.

“The height of the brother was 204 cm (+3.7 SD) with eunuchoid skeletal proportions, and the weight was 135.1 kg (+2.1 SD). He was sexually fully mature and had macroorchidism. The plasma concentrations of testosterone (2015 ng/dL), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (125 ng/dL), and androstenedione (335 ng/dL) were elevated; estradiol and estrone levels were less than 7 pg/mL. Plasma FSH and LH concentrations were more than 3 times the mean value. Plasma PRL was low; serum insulin-like growth factor I and GH-binding protein were normal. The bone age was 14 yr at a chronological age of 24 3/12 yr. Striking osteopenia was noted at the wrist. Bone mineral densitometric indexes of the lumbar spine (cancellous bone) and distal radius (cortical bone) were consistent with osteoporosis; the distal radius was -4.7 SD below the mean value for age- and sex-matched normal men; indexes of bone turnover were increased. Hyperinsulinemia, increased serum total and low density lipoprotein cholesterol, and triglycerides and decreased high density lipoprotein cholesterol were detected.”

What makes you think low estrogen alone is the cause of the bone pathology? Where is the evidence for that? Why not the 3-fold elevations in LH/FSH? Also, did you see this other thread?
Blocking Estrogen In Brain Strikingly Anabolic For Female Muscles / Bones

 

[tankasnowgod]

You left out the good part about his bones.

“The height of the brother was 204 cm (+3.7 SD) with eunuchoid skeletal proportions, and the weight was 135.1 kg (+2.1 SD). He was sexually fully mature and had macroorchidism. The plasma concentrations of testosterone (2015 ng/dL), 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (125 ng/dL), and androstenedione (335 ng/dL) were elevated; estradiol and estrone levels were less than 7 pg/mL. Plasma FSH and LH concentrations were more than 3 times the mean value. Plasma PRL was low; serum insulin-like growth factor I and GH-binding protein were normal. The bone age was 14 yr at a chronological age of 24 3/12 yr. Striking osteopenia was noted at the wrist. Bone mineral densitometric indexes of the lumbar spine (cancellous bone) and distal radius (cortical bone) were consistent with osteoporosis; the distal radius was -4.7 SD below the mean value for age- and sex-matched normal men; indexes of bone turnover were increased. Hyperinsulinemia, increased serum total and low density lipoprotein cholesterol, and triglycerides and decreased high density lipoprotein cholesterol were detected.”

Well, you're free to draw whatever conclusions you want. I stand by what I said in my post above, and that would include his bones- "His state is no doubt due to high androgens, low estrogen, and other hormones that are likely very low, or very high. He may also be suffering from various vitamin and nutrient deficiencies that would not affect a normal person, similar to how Burr's rats displayed nutrient deficiencies due to their elevated metabolism from eating a diet "deficient" in "essential" fatty acids."

 

[haidut]

Bottom 25% meaning 7.6 - 16.35 pg/mL (7.6 - 42.6)? How high is high? 700-900 ng/dL? Four digits? Less? More? Are there sites that share these stats? Is this combination desirable at any age? 30s?

I prefer the phenotype of the young male - T in the upper 20% of normal, estrogen in the bottom 20% of normal, and progesterone at the level of non-menstruating females. Our progesterone greatly declines with age, similar to DHEA and pregnenolone, and this decline is likely involved in some of the bone deterioration ascribed to estrogen deficiency.
Pregnenolone, Progesterone And DHEA Drop, Cortisol Rises In Aging

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Actually I was looking up macroorchidism on wikipedia because of your post and it says that men with aromatase deficiency often have Osteoporosis ...Can someone make sense of that maybe it inhibited some other hormone as well ( progesterone) ?

Also this:
OMIM Entry - # 613546 - AROMATASE DEFICIENCY
"Their clinical symptoms include tall stature, delayed skeletal maturation, delayed epiphyseal closure, bone pain, eunuchoid body proportions, and excess adiposity. Estrogen replacement therapy reverses the symptoms in males and females (summary by Jones et al., 2007)."

Yup, even with all that dht floating around... seems estrogen is needed for bones.

 

[Mauritio]

This is related to post above:

"While only 1 affected male had been reported, normal genitalia were noted at birth, normal pubertal development occurred, and adult stature was extremely tall (greater than 3 SD) with osteoporosis, macroorchidism, and infertility (8530621] [8772541] ["

"demonstrates that androgens are not solely responsible for the establishment of peak bone mass in males; a man with these 2 genetic disorders showed osteoporosis. found that treatment for 3 years with conjugated estrogen resulted in restoration of bone mass in the patient reported by Morishima et al. (1995) with aromatase deficiency"

OMIM Entry - # 613546 - AROMATASE DEFICIENCY

Should he not have stronger bones ?

 

[Captain_Coconut]

What makes you think low estrogen alone is the cause of the bone pathology? Where is the evidence for that? Why not the 3-fold elevations in LH/FSH? Also, did you see this other thread?
Blocking Estrogen In Brain Strikingly Anabolic For Female Muscles / Bones

Just a wild guess. Why does exemestane have bone pain as a side?

 

[haidut]

Actually I was looking up macroorchidism on wikipedia because of your post and it says that men with aromatase deficiency often have Osteoporosis ...Can someone make sense of that maybe it inhibited some other hormone as well ( progesterone) ?

Also this:
OMIM Entry - # 613546 - AROMATASE DEFICIENCY
"Their clinical symptoms include tall stature, delayed skeletal maturation, delayed epiphyseal closure, bone pain, eunuchoid body proportions, and excess adiposity. Estrogen replacement therapy reverses the symptoms in males and females (summary by Jones et al., 2007)."

I mentioned this in some of my other comments. Look at the 3-fold elevations in the LH/FSH. That cannot be good. We also don't know what other pituitary hormones were elevated (CRH maybe) which is also very detrimental for bones.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Yup, even with all that dht floating around... seems estrogen is needed for bones.

Well, before I would jump to that conclusion, I would like to know his levels of Vitamins D, A, K2, mineral levels of calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, and hormone levels of prolactin and PTH.... but, that's just me.

 

[haidut]

Just a wild guess. Why does exemestane have bone pain as a side?

In higher doses exemestane actually suppresses T, DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone, and even cortisol. Any of these could account for bone pain. It is an androgen after all and beyound certain doses starts to exert negative feedback on all steroid synthesis. In lower doses it does not seem to do that and incidentally bodybuilders love it in doses below 12mg daily and say it has none of the side effects of other AI.

 

[Captain_Coconut]

In higher doses exemestane actually suppresses T, DHEA, progesterone and pregnenolone, and even cortisol. Any of these could account for bone pain. It is an androgen after all and beyound certain doses starts to exert negative feedback on all steroid synthesis. In lower doses it does not seem to do that and incidentally bodybuilders love it in doses below 12mg daily and say it has none of the side effects of other AI.

I see. I thought the point of presenting exemestane studies was to show the flaw in the zole studies; Regarding supression of progesterone.

 

[haidut]

I see. I thought the point of presenting exemestane studies was to show the flaw in the zole studies; Regarding supression of progesterone.

Yes, in low doses it does not have steroid suppression effect (except estrogen) and most studies doing comparison between exemestane and *zoles found the the latter to be worse for bones. But the studies with 5mg and 10mg exemestane found no adverse effects on bones despite suppressing estrogen by more than 70%. So, the optimal dose of exemestane is somewhere in the 5mg-10mg range, which is what the bodybuilders seem to have found by trial and error as well. At those doses it seems to mostly affect estrogen and not much else.
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/clincanres/3/7/1101.full.pdf

At the commonly used doses in studies (usually 25mg daily) its effects on estrogen are the same as lower doses but now starts powerfully suppressing the entire steroidogenesis pathway.

 

[Mauritio]

I mentioned this in some of my other comments. Look at the 3-fold elevations in the LH/FSH. That cannot be good. We also don't know what other pituitary hormones were elevated (CRH maybe) which is also very detrimental for bones.

Got you. It might also be related to his dysfunctional metabolism:

"The patient had a complex dysmetabolic syndrome characterized by insulin resistance, diabetes mellitus type 2, acanthosis nigricans, liver steatohepatitis, and signs of precocious atherogenesis"

 

[Captain_Coconut]

Yes, in low doses it does not have steroid suppression effect (except estrogen) and most studies doing comparison between exemestane and *zoles found the the latter to be worse for bones. But the studies with 5mg and 10mg exemestane found no adverse effects on bones despite suppressing estrogen by more than 70%. So, the optimal dose of exemestane is somewhere in the 5mg-10mg range, which is what the bodybuilders seem to have found by trial and error as well. At those doses it seems to mostly affect estrogen and not much else.
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/clincanres/3/7/1101.full.pdf

Nice, thanks for the clarification.

 

[haidut]

Got you. It might also be metabolism related to his dysfunctional metabolism:

"The patient had a complex dysmetabolic syndrome characterized by insulin resistance, diabetes mellitus type 2, acanthosis nigricans, liver steatohepatitis, and signs of precocious atherogenesis"

Oh yeah, any of these could be the cause of bone issues. I think the diabetes and liver issues are especially relevant as potential causes.

 

[Waynish]

More complicated that some people are thinking in this thread because two estrogen lowering substances will not have the same effects when they are in excess...