Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

[S-VV]

I tried 6mg every day of aromasin (exemestane). Felt great and androgenic the first few days, but afterwards my joints and stamina went to s**t.

The problem is even 5 mg topical DHEA make my nipples hurt, and I already have a bit of gyno from puberty.

My e2 is only 17, with also very low prolactin, so I assume the gyno is from the lack of DHT. Haven't measured the latter yet

 

[boxers]

If i ever got gyno, i would probably get it surgically removed.

 

[Goobz]

Despite being someone firmly in the “estradiol is critical and lowering it is stupid” camp (through painful experience), I do think that gyno and estrogen are closely related. I’m sure there are other factors that are important, but there’s definitely a close relationship there.

I mean, mtf transsexuals use estrogen specifically to grow breasts.

I wonder if estrone has more of an effect on gyno than estradiol, though. Because for me, the thing that gives me gyno the most seems to unfortunately be DHEA. And I think that gets converted into estrone more easily than estradiol, whereas testosterone is a step away from estradiol.

I personally would like to get my estradiol much much higher... but when I do I get gyno beginning, and despite all the health issues I have which I believe would benefit... I don’t want to grow boobs! But I may well end up doing something like that, if I can’t find any other solution. Neurological, sleep and probable blood vessel problems are more important than big nipples, really.

 

[Goobz]

Back to the OP

The worst health decision of my life was taking letrozole prescribed to me by an endo, for a mild case of gyno. My skin joints... but most importantly brain, all took a significant turn for the worse.

I can’t work out how RP and people who think estrogen is bad make sense of certain findings.

- The most recent study of hormones and biological aging in older MEN found that the only hormone positively correlated with a younger biological age is estradiol. The higher the men’s estradiol levels, the younger their cells were, looking at telomeres etc
Estradiol level influences telomere length in older men

- Aromatase appears critical for the beneficial effects of other steroids such as...
Neuroprotection by the steroids pregnenolone and dehydroepiandrosterone is mediated by the enzyme aromatase. - PubMed - NCBI


- Lets look at what happens when estrogen is blocked. There was a recent study showing biological effects of giving testosterone replacement in men with or without blocking aromatase, and many of the supposed benefits of TRT are actually mediated by estrogen. Giving the AI caused body fat to accumulate and induced dyslipidemia.


- Most damningly, AIs are well known to cause, CAUSE cognitive decline, along with joint skin and blood vessel problems.
- RP followers then claim, mysteriously, that this somehow must be due to the AIs lowering progesterone. Despite the fact that the drugs are designed to lower estrogen. I haven’t seen evidence of this, but it doesn’t matter anyway because...
- A similar set of symptoms and cognitive decline is seen with SERMs, which only effect estrogen, though not as severe, so it’s clearly NOT due to lowering progesterone.... but surprise surprise... due to the lowering of estrogen, which is exactly what the drug is designed to do!
- And then if people still aren’t convinced, please just google congenital aromatase deficiency. This is the nail in the coffin as far as I’m concerned. A genetic variant on an enzyme which specifically effects estrogen, no drugs or unwanted side effects. Youll see how warped the bodies are of people who are born with genetically low levels of this evil “stress” hormone. Note the gyno-like fat accumulation around the chest.

 

[Lokzo]

For estradiol, he, and anyone pushing for aromatase inhibition, is DEAD wrong. Just like for testosterone: the upper part of E2’s normal range is at least where a healthy human should be. Your lipids, penis, brain, muscles, joints, hair, skin, sleep will thank you. Stop the anti estradiol craziness.

Exactly right!!

@Hedgehog - Get your E measured asap!

 

[chrismturner89]

Im also struggling with similar low E issues. Anyone know a safe and natural way to raise? Perhaps more legumes?

 

[Lokzo]

Back to the OP

The worst health decision of my life was taking letrozole prescribed to me by an endo, for a mild case of gyno. My skin joints... but most importantly brain, all took a significant turn for the worse.

I can’t work out how RP and people who think estrogen is bad make sense of certain findings.

- The most recent study of hormones and biological aging in older MEN found that the only hormone positively correlated with a younger biological age is estradiol. The higher the men’s estradiol levels, the younger their cells were, looking at telomeres etc
Estradiol level influences telomere length in older men

- Aromatase appears critical for the beneficial effects of other steroids such as...
Neuroprotection by the steroids pregnenolone and dehydroepiandrosterone is mediated by the enzyme aromatase. - PubMed - NCBI


- Lets look at what happens when estrogen is blocked. There was a recent study showing biological effects of giving testosterone replacement in men with or without blocking aromatase, and many of the supposed benefits of TRT are actually mediated by estrogen. Giving the AI caused body fat to accumulate and induced dyslipidemia.


- Most damningly, AIs are well known to cause, CAUSE cognitive decline, along with joint skin and blood vessel problems.
- RP followers then claim, mysteriously, that this somehow must be due to the AIs lowering progesterone. Despite the fact that the drugs are designed to lower estrogen. I haven’t seen evidence of this, but it doesn’t matter anyway because...
- A similar set of symptoms and cognitive decline is seen with SERMs, which only effect estrogen, though not as severe, so it’s clearly NOT due to lowering progesterone.... but surprise surprise... due to the lowering of estrogen, which is exactly what the drug is designed to do!
- And then if people still aren’t convinced, please just google congenital aromatase deficiency. This is the nail in the coffin as far as I’m concerned. A genetic variant on an enzyme which specifically effects estrogen, no drugs or unwanted side effects. Youll see how warped the bodies are of people who are born with genetically low levels of this evil “stress” hormone. Note the gyno-like fat accumulation around the chest.

You are spot on. Sounds like you've been listening to Dr. Jim Meehan, Jay Campbell, Dr. Keith Nichols.


I am so glad that I made this thread. More and more guys are going to see this and feel the difference when they STOP inhibiting aromatase.

There have been literally hundreds of reports of guys reporting side effects by blocking estrogen on this forum and elsewhere.

 

[Lokzo]

One thing that helps me is green olives/olive oil. I think the MUFA raises my sgbt so it keeps things in check and from becoming too imbalanced. Maybe getting some kind of mild natural phytoestrogen is the key to balance? Anyone know of any?

Have you tried Olive leaf extract.

I think you may respond well to it.

 

[Lokzo]

Im also struggling with similar low E issues. Anyone know a safe and natural way to raise? Perhaps more legumes?

What are your symptoms?

 

[Goobz]

You are spot on. Sounds like you've been listening to Dr. Jim Meehan, Jay Campbell, Dr. Keith Nichols.


I am so glad that I made this thread. More and more guys are going to see this and feel the difference when they STOP inhibiting aromatase.

There have been literally hundreds of reports of guys reporting side effects by blocking estrogen on this forum and elsewhere.

I have heard them, but i found information about the necessity of estrogen through my own research first. The critical pathway for so many things that were wrong with me, involved a lack of estrogen, not an excess.

This was then verified later by finding people like that who talk about the dangers of AIs, like the people you mentioned. I think they’re putting out a great message.

However I must admit I find the Jay Campbell guy to be a bit annoying in his attitude. He gets great guests on who supply the information, and then he keeps interrupting and talking over them. His clips are 80% his repetitive, self congratulatory spiels, and 20% the quality content of his guests.

 

[nbznj]

Whats your current protocol now

Not on anything as of now, Test and e2 came back at 600/20 as they always do. I think I’ll use HCG mono for a while. Most likely 500iu e3d with a bit of peptides (might as well pin some extra)



Go to 24min24sec, basically T and E2 are both doubled up over time while SHBG doesn’t budge.

 

[nbznj]

And indeed, Jay Campbell is highly irritating.

For e2 improvements, I suggest a high carb diet. More specifically a high carb/protein ratio. Which will also increase SHBG, Dht, T, everything.

Nutrition-endocrine interactions: induction of reciprocal changes in the delta 4-5 alpha-reduction of testosterone and the cytochrome P-450-dependent oxidation of estradiol by dietary macronutrients in man.

1-s2.0-0024320587900865-main.pdf

 

[baccheion]

Exactly right!!

@Hedgehog - Get your E measured asap!

It's more about the ratio. What's being said here is that the 20:1 TT:E2 ratio common with TRT is preferred over a 40-60:1 ratio that occurs when DHT is higher. The typical ratio among males according to one study is 14.5:1.

Further, health/longevity has been associated with E2 in the 21.81-30.11 pg/mL range. Peak survival was projected to occur at ~26 pg/mL, the typical/median level for males in their 30s. On the other hand, the study centered around 58 year old males with proportionally lower TT (11:1 ratio in the quartile with range 21.81-30.11, with a 48:1 ratio in the lowest quartile and a 8:1 ratio in the highest).

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ty_in_Men_With_Systolic_Chronic_Heart_Failure

The preferred range for total testosterone (assumes 2-3% free T) is sometimes stated as 700-900 ng/dL.

 

[chrismturner89]

Have you tried Olive leaf extract.

I think you may respond well to it.

What benefits would olive leaf extract have?

 

[Goobz]

Could estrogen help treat Parkinson's?

Interestingly, some of the latest research showing the beneficial effects of estrogen on the brain are using a specific pro drug form of estrogen which is active in the brain only. This may be something I would be interested in, since it would do away with the worries about gyno. And test alone has mixed results in terms of brain health, sleep apnea.

I guess with brain-only estrogen, you wouldn’t get the other effects on lipids, skin, joints etc... but the brain is the main thing I’m concerned with. However it’s still a research chemical at this stage I guess.

The prodrug DHED selectively delivers 17β-estradiol to the brain for treating estrogen-responsive disorders. - PubMed - NCBI

In one of the studies they gave the post menopausal rats strokes, and then placebo, estradiol (E2), or this brain only estrogen DHED (which acts as a precursor to E2 in the brain). Those with no treatment had great damage, those with E2 were well protected, but those with DHED had the most protection. And they needed ten times the amount of E2 to get the same level of protection that DHED gave.

And the study below shows the treatment of a mouse model of Alzheimer’s. The reduction in phosphorylated tau seems promising for other diseases such as PD and LBD which involved similar proteins, in addition to alpha syn (which also is detoxified by estrogen from toxic form to a non toxic non aggregating form, monomers and polymers though I can’t remember which is which).

Treatment with a brain-selective prodrug of 17β-estradiol improves cognitive function in Alzheimer’s disease mice by regulating klf5-NF-κB pathway

 

[TheBeard]

The only way that felt close enough to physiological was using HCG for me.

Naturally I’ll have test in the 600s and e2 around 20. It sucks somewhat, not gonna lie still decent strength, sleep. Trashed joints and lack of libido. At one point in life on a ketogenic diet my test was over 800 but e2 was 10 pg/ml. THAT was hell on earth. Feeling very sorry for those keto wannabe influencers who report higher total test because that’s the only think they measure. If only they know half better...

On HCG (low dose, 500iu e3d) test wasn’t any higher but e2 shot up to 35. I could at least have sex multiple times per week... joints improvement shall take a while tho.

That’s on top of a trt dose of test? Or using HCG as a standalone?

 

[nbznj]

Standalone HCG as per the video above. I’m going to start it anew doing 625iu e3d with peptides. Not keen on letting e2 settle in the sub-20 territory

@baccheion indeed, free T in the upper teens and e2 quite a bit higher (I’d say twice as high, mid 30s) is a very good baseline to me

 

[TheBeard]

Standalone HCG as per the video above. I’m going to start it anew doing 625iu e3d with peptides. Not keen on letting e2 settle in the sub-20 territory

@baccheion indeed, free T in the upper teens and e2 quite a bit higher (I’d say twice as high, mid 30s) is a very good baseline to me

Surprised HCG alone can bring your test to decent levels, always thought a standalone was going to put you at 400 tops

 

[nbznj]

Surprised HCG alone can bring your test to decent levels, always thought a standalone was going to put you at 400 tops

Not what the video above shows (watch it), alongside multiple studies and HRT docs like Shippen

Dr. Shippen's HCG Challenge

In younger, high output responders (T >
1100ng/dl), hCG can be given every third or fourth day at bedtime or in the AM. This also minimizes estrogen conversion. In lower level responders(600-800ng/dl), or those with a higher E2 output associated with full dose hCG, 300-500 units can be given Mon-Wed-Fri. At times, sluggish responders may require a higher dose to achieve full
Testosterone response.

I’m in that group, and starting it again at slightly higher doses today

 

[TheBeard]

Not what the video above shows (watch it), alongside multiple studies and HRT docs like Shippen

Dr. Shippen's HCG Challenge



I’m in that group, and starting it again at slightly higher doses today

Ok.

Also, the desensitization myth has been debunked by now (Dr Rand McClain talked about it in one of Jay Cutler’s video), so injecting more than 500iu thrice a week is totally fine.