Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

[boxers]

Thanks. that's interesting. I been on TRT so long now I'm not even sure I could get off....

Im assuming your against clomid, HCG, nolvadex ?

 

[TheBeard]

Yes, I do believe the "benefits" of estrogen are basically none. It has some role in libido but most people have way more than what is optimal. Prolactin in the bottom 25 of the normal range and estradiol in the same range should be enough for good health.
If exemestane is used it may be enough on its own and thus no need for TRT (see below studies). I think exemestane + pregnenolone can achieve everything TRT does and without many of the risks since unlike an AI-only therapy the additional pregnenolone will probably also take care of any possible progesterone suppression by the AI.
Alternatives to testosterone replacement: testosterone restoration McCullough A - Asian J Androl
Effects of Aromatase Inhibition Versus Testosterone in Older Men With Low Testosterone: Randomized-Controlled Trial. - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

There is no way I would do TRT with Exemestane alone.

The doses that are effective at raising my T are enough to kill my joints as @ShotTrue mentioned.

The only times I had to visit a chiro for my neck were after taking exemestane, and climbing stairs would cause a sharp pain in the knee cap.


I see the benefit for someone whose natural E2 is 40 and above, but mine is naturally <20.
And even then, that >40 guy could lower it down by fixing diet before jumping on an AI

 

[haidut]

There is no way I would do TRT with Exemestane alone.

The doses that are effective at raising my T are enough to kill my joints as @ShotTrue mentioned.

The only times I had to visit a chiro for my neck were after taking exemestane, and climbing stairs would cause a sharp pain in the knee cap.


I see the benefit for someone whose natural E2 is 40 and above, but mine is naturally <20.
And even then, that >40 guy could lower it down by fixing diet before jumping on an AI

Have you tried it? It seems to be effective in doses as low as 5mg daily and at that dose it does not seem to cause any joint issues. At doses of 5mg daily it drops estrone by 80%+ and estradiol by 60%+ and such drop in estrogen is enough to restore androgens IF there is enough pregnenolone floating around.
Even A Slight Increase In Estrogen Strongly Decreases DHEA Levels

Btw, in my post I said exemestane + pregnenolone because in some people the AI alone won't do much if there are not enough precursors floating around. Also, the pregnenolone should take care of the joint issues, which I believe are mostly caused by AI lowering progesterone synthesis.

 

[ShotTrue]

Have you tried it? It seems to be effective in doses as low as 5mg daily and at that dose it does not seem to cause any joint issues. At doses of 5mg daily it drops estrone by 80%+ and estradiol by 60%+ and such drop in estrogen is enough to restore androgens IF there is enough pregnenolone floating around.
Even A Slight Increase In Estrogen Strongly Decreases DHEA Levels

Btw, in my post I said exemestane + pregnenolone because in some people the AI alone won't do much if there are not enough precursors floating around. Also, the pregnenolone should take care of the joint issues, which I believe are mostly caused by AI lowering progesterone synthesis.

I thought exemstane didn't lower progesterone.
Interesting about 5 mg, as typically you only see it in 12.5 to 25 mg which is obviously a higher dose.
I guess we are assuming that too high estrogen is what is keeping natural test function from occurring

 

[Amazoniac]

Yes I get the same symptoms when my estrogen is too low. Joint pain, lethargy, low mood, and LOW libido. These symptoms are at their worst when I peat perfectly and take vitamin E + aspirin. If I drink a couple of beers I get better libido. When I drink 5 beers I go back to no libido. I think balance is key, and that balance should be on the lower end. Ive seen researchers claim that estrogen signals opioid receptors, so that could be the cause of the increased nerve and joint pains. So Ive been trying to keep estrogen low, but not too low.

I think that avoiding pufa on its own is very effective at reducing estrogen. When you begin adding in additional things like aspirin vitamin E, eating tons of fruit and sugars and drinking a lot of milk and not consuming any starch, all of those things probably cumulate in a situation where your estradiol levels are next to nonexistent, and then we begin experiencing these problems.

Have you experimented with supplemental boron in these states? I can't think of a more appropriate moment to try it.

By the way..
- Nothing Boring About Boron

"A diverse, plant-food-rich diet is estimated to provide approximately 1.5 to 3 mg/d of boron.[125,127] Foods of plant origin, especially fruits, leafy vegetables, nuts, and legumes, are rich in boron as are plant-derived fermented beverages (ie, wine, cider, and beer)."​

A matter of dosing or something else responsible for the contrasting effect?

 

[MatheusPN]

For the joint arguments.
I had arthritis in the back and knees, diagnosed by a rheumatologist, lasted strongly by one month, in two to three months healed. Aspirin greatly improved the pain. Soon after the cure, I began to use the newly arrived androsterone, the pain was what most encouraged me to buy, because it was thyromimetic, androsterone a strong anti-estrogenic substance, so far no problem in joints
My arthritis full report here: Developing Chronic Knee Pain it was a long time ago

@ShotTrue Edit to reply
AIs that me or my rat use? Gonadin, Pansterone, Androsterone, Coffee, Tribulus, methylene blue, aspirin, cyproheptadine and camphor
I have supplemented, zinc, D, E, K, calcium, magnesium, gelatin
No problems and no one knows my estrogen levels. When I do a blood work, can have an idea
Ray about joint pain: "Thank you. I doubt the low estrogen theory."
Joint pain is more related to endotoxin and to much heavy, exhausting and eccentric only exercises

 

[ShotTrue]

For the joint arguments.
I had arthritis in the back and knees, diagnosed by a rheumatologist, lasted strongly by month, in two to three months healed. Aspirin greatly improved the pain. Soon after the cure, I began to use the newly arrived androsterone, the pain was what most encouraged me to buy, because it was thyromimetic, androsterone a strong anti-estrogenic substance, so far no problem in joints
My arthritis full report here: Developing Chronic Knee Pain

Yes but what level is your estrogen. For all we know your estrogen is at normal levels while taking androsterone. Thanks for adding though
For example when I take AIs and get nasty effects, Vitamin D or K keep the nasty effects worse/ from recovery. Vit D or K both lower estrogen and progesterone which makes me think it's not necessarily the drug but rather the hormone levels that are causing issues

 

[haidut]

I guess we are assuming that too high estrogen is what is keeping natural test function from occurring

We are not assuming, it has been shown that most elderly men have secondary (as opposed to primary) hypogonadism. So, something (hint: estrogen, cortisol, serotonin, etc) is keeping them from synthesizing normal amounts of T. Hence the suggestion to use AI only as an alternative to TRT. Did you look at the 2 studies I posted earlier? This is from the first one:

"...The European Male Aging Study has demonstrated that the hypogonadism of male aging is predominantly secondary. Theoretically with appropriate stimulation from the pituitary, the aging testis should be able to produce eugonadal levels of testosterone. The strategies for the treatment of late onset hypogonadism (LOH) have focused on replacement with exogenous testosterone versus restoration of endogenous production. The purpose of this article is to review existing peer-reviewed literature supporting the concept of restoration of endogenous testosterone in the treatment of LOH."

 

[ShotTrue]

.

 

[ShotTrue]

Yes, I do believe the "benefits" of estrogen are basically none. It has some role in libido but most people have way more than what is optimal. Prolactin in the bottom 25 of the normal range and estradiol in the same range should be enough for good health.
If exemestane is used it may be enough on its own and thus no need for TRT (see below studies). I think exemestane + pregnenolone can achieve everything TRT does and without many of the risks since unlike an AI-only therapy the additional pregnenolone will probably also take care of any possible progesterone suppression by the AI.
Alternatives to testosterone replacement: testosterone restoration McCullough A - Asian J Androl
Effects of Aromatase Inhibition Versus Testosterone in Older Men With Low Testosterone: Randomized-Controlled Trial. - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

Oh okay I didn't see these links, maybe I wasn't paying attention

 

[Amazoniac]

Will is extra choline?
- Incomprehensive/ble Notes On Choline

 

[TheBeard]

For the joint arguments.
I had arthritis in the back and knees, diagnosed by a rheumatologist, lasted strongly by one month, in two to three months healed. Aspirin greatly improved the pain. Soon after the cure, I began to use the newly arrived androsterone, the pain was what most encouraged me to buy, because it was thyromimetic, androsterone a strong anti-estrogenic substance, so far no problem in joints
My arthritis full report here: Developing Chronic Knee Pain it was a long time ago

@ShotTrue Edit to reply
AIs that me or my rat use? Gonadin, Pansterone, Androsterone, Coffee, Tribulus, methylene blue, aspirin, cyproheptadine and camphor
I have supplemented, zinc, D, E, K, calcium, magnesium, gelatin
No problems and no one knows my estrogen levels. When I do a blood work, can have an idea
Ray about joint pain: "Thank you. I doubt the low estrogen theory."
Joint pain is more related to endotoxin and to much heavy, exhausting and eccentric only exercises

Ray may doubt the low estrogen theory all he wants, the fact is that without changing my diet or exercise or any other parameter, when I take a single dose 25mg exemestane my joints hurt 2 days after.

Are you going to say that the exe raised endotoxins? Why no other med ever did that to me?

 

[Goobz]

Ray may doubt the low estrogen theory all he wants, the fact is that without changing my diet or exercise or any other parameter, when I take a single dose 25mg exemestane my joints hurt 2 days after.

Are you going to say that the exe raised endotoxins? Why no other med ever did that to me?

Ray Peat is a genius. But even a genius isn’t right about everything. His ideas on estrogen are some of his sillier ones IMO. Some of the mental gymnastics that takes place on this forum in response to anything that shows estrogens benefits, is pretty telling.

 

[Lokzo]

hese symptoms are at their worst when I peat perfectly and take vitamin E + aspirin

Exactly the same as me. Anytime I SLASH estrogen with herbs and even Aspirin etc, it worsens me...

 

[MatheusPN]

Ray may doubt the low estrogen theory all he wants, the fact is that without changing my diet or exercise or any other parameter, when I take a single dose 25mg exemestane my joints hurt 2 days after.

Are you going to say that the exe raised endotoxins? Why no other med ever did that to me?

I say one of the probable causes can be endotoxin, so for sure I won't!
Did you ever see Ray recommending exesmestane? Even better, at this crazy high dose?
Exemestane only affects estrogen: No
I already see, knockout against estrogen in mouses, studies that didn't report any joint issues

Estrogen promotes proliferation, if not opposed promotes cancer, short bursts are good for repair. Estrogen has its good functions, people who know Peat work, knows that; estrogen isn't a dispensable, needless hormone for an okay condition

Peat in his book Nutrition for women:
"Estrogen is the hormone for beginnings, a sort of biochemical eraser which can eliminate recently recorded information, restoring the underlying primitive capacity for growth. When we are threatened, by injury or aging, we need the capacity for renewal of cells."

Edit to reply @TheBeard
The effects depends on the dosage and guinea pig
The Amazonense stick can answer that better

 

[TheBeard]

Exemestane only affects estrogen: No

What else does it affect?

 

[Beefcake]

Estrogen is not needed for those either. Exemestane itself is anabolic for the bone. The bone loss from AI is probably from suppressed progesterone synthesis as those drugs are not selective only for aromatase inhibition.
Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism
Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Aromatase inhibitors (AI) are being evaluated as long-term adjuvant therapies and chemopreventives in breast cancer. However, there are concerns about bone mineral density loss in an estrogen-free environment. Unlike nonsteroidal AIs, the steroidal AI exemestane may exert beneficial effects on bone through its primary metabolite 17-hydroexemestane."

So you mean AI also supress progesterone? Is this for exemestane aswell or only the SERMs?

 

[ShotTrue]

Ray may doubt the low estrogen theory all he wants, the fact is that without changing my diet or exercise or any other parameter, when I take a single dose 25mg exemestane my joints hurt 2 days after.

Are you going to say that the exe raised endotoxins? Why no other med ever did that to me?

Exactly my experience. Perfectly healthy, no joint pain or any problems, taking a single dose of 25 mg exemestane and BAM! massive joint pain like walking was tearing my knees apart. Don't think I noticed much else, my body was pretty resilient

 

[ShotTrue]

.

 

[haidut]

So you mean AI also supress progesterone? Is this for exemestane aswell or only the SERMs?

The SERMs are really just synthetic estrogens with partial antiestrogenic effects in some tissues. Both them and the *zole AI drugs seem to suppress progesterone synthesis. Exemestane, atamestane and formestane seem to be less problematic when used in lower doses. Combing them with some pregnenolone seems to eliminate the joint pain issues. The same could be tried with the other AI but I would not use SERM, they are dangerous.