Estrogen Is Absolutely Critical For Men

[lampofred]

Yes I get the same symptoms when my estrogen is too low. Joint pain, lethargy, low mood, and LOW libido. These symptoms are at their worst when I peat perfectly and take vitamin E + aspirin. If I drink a couple of beers I get better libido. When I drink 5 beers I go back to no libido. I think balance is key, and that balance should be on the lower end. Ive seen researchers claim that estrogen signals opioid receptors, so that could be the cause of the increased nerve and joint pains. So Ive been trying to keep estrogen low, but not too low.

I think that avoiding pufa on its own is very effective at reducing estrogen. When you begin adding in additional things like aspirin vitamin E, eating tons of fruit and sugars and drinking a lot of milk and not consuming any starch, all of those things probably cumulate in a situation where your estradiol levels are next to nonexistent, and then we begin experiencing these problems.

My guess is that the joint pain isn't caused by low estrogen, lowering estrogen (which also lowers serotonin) makes you more aware of the problem spots of your body and makes you more sensitive to pain. That's why SSRIs and SNRI's are used for fibromyalgia, the serotonin isn't fixing the pain, it's just masking it.

 

[lampofred]

In this video I think they're thinking that estrogen has the characteristics of progesterone, that's why estrogen is being viewed as a pro-evolutionary substance and testosterone is being viewed as Neanderthal-like.

 

[chrismturner89]

My guess is that the joint pain isn't caused by low estrogen, lowering estrogen (which also lowers serotonin) makes you more aware of the problem spots of your body and makes you more sensitive to pain. That's why SSRIs and SNRI's are used for fibromyalgia, the serotonin isn't fixing the pain, it's just masking it.

But this perspective is akin to when people say it's just a detox reaction. Masking, detoxing... or actually creating a problem or imbalance.

Also, even if it is masking something... surely it is better to feel good and have a decent libido than feel like crap?

 

[sladerunner69]

Most of the claims are the same old ones that are used to push estrogen on women as HRT. The WHI study debunked all of those claims, especially the ones related to heart and brain health. I will address their main claim - that when aromatization is inhibited, body fat increases. The study below begs to disagree, strongly. Taking nothing but an aromatase inhibitor made the people in the study below both gain muscle AND lose fat.
Exemestane makes you slimmer and more muscular

This coming week I will also post a study that shows estrogen is NOT needed for muscle growth, and in fact muscles grow slightly faster when aromatase is inhibited. Very much in line with the study above.

@Lokzo

I would like to point at that study was upon 33 old Italian women (average age 68). Women tend to have higher estrogen levels to begin with, especially as they grow older. And their Italian diets are high in starch and pufa meats like pork sausage, so their estradiol was likely already very high. So reducing estrogen in that case is very likely to have benefits.
However, I will argue that the benefits of estrogen reduction will have diminishing returns as the estrogen levels are normalized and brough to the low-normal range.

I say this because many of us have experienced bad symptoms commonly assoiciated with suppressed estradiol. Joint pain, nerve pain, lack of emotion, lethargy, and low libido are all symptoms pointed out by steroid users who have had problems with aromatase inhibitors.

 

[sladerunner69]

My guess is that the joint pain isn't caused by low estrogen, lowering estrogen (which also lowers serotonin) makes you more aware of the problem spots of your body and makes you more sensitive to pain. That's why SSRIs and SNRI's are used for fibromyalgia, the serotonin isn't fixing the pain, it's just masking it.

Well I do notice improvement when I consume my weekly liver, but it isn't a complete improvement. If estrogen is still low then there is still some pain.

Yes serotonin has a numbing effect, I realize that. And estrogen may also have that effect, too. However with estrogen, and not serotonin inhibitors, there is clearly a large trend of men who try AI's and report the same problems - the foremost of which is joint pain. This is well understood in bodybuilding/steroid circles. It is why they don't use AI's year round. It is why many people on this forum have mentioned joint/nerve pain when trying estroban, androsterone, or aspirin. If you already in good health with a solid metabolism and are eating peaty, your estrogen is already low. Pushing it any lower will probably not do much good, and will likely result in all of symptoms previously described.

From an evolutionary perspective, I don't think that suppressing estrogen is very natural. In the ideal human habitat, the one which body has evolved into over eons of biological adaptation, food will be plentiful at times and lacking in others. The body developed natural coping mechanisms for times of famine, war and strife: stress hormones, fat accumulation and so forth. From this perspective it is impossible to see estrogen being suppressed to such low levels as we regularly do on the forum through dietary and supplementary measures. It's just not reasonable to think that anyone before 1900 could have kept their estrogen low through any means other than a diet which contained low levels of PUFA. Therefore, I think a traditional, organic diet with plenty of protein and carbs, and low in pufa is probably optimal for hormonal balance, and anything more than that is probably overkill.

 

[RisingSun]

While using trt im not sure if i should block estogen anymor and just let it naturally convert to get the benefits of estrogen

Depends what your TRT consists of.
If you apply transdermal test to the scrotum, your DHT will be such that it will counter e2 in most cases.
If you are doing the regular injections keep an eye on nipple sensitivity for it not to turn to full-fledged gyno.
I’m a proponent of not going by numbers but feeling rather

 

[boxers]

What's optimal Free testosterone level?

It was the opposite for. I had insane levels of estrogen on transdermal test and felt awful.
I seem to do best on a low dose of T daily injections 6-10mg daily.

 

[danishispsychic]

Dr Rouzier used to be one of my doctors when he was in private practice about 10 years ago - He did nothing for me really and had quite the ego......All I can say is when you look at his face in those recent pics he is not looking super healthy - hmm.

 

[boxers]

Dr Rouzier used to be one of my doctors when he was in private practice about 10 years ago - He did nothing for me really and had quite the ego......All I can say is when you look at his face in those recent pics he is not looking super healthy - hmm.

He did some nice research showing blocking estrogen while on trt doses does more harm than good.

 

[haidut]

What about bone health and lipids

Estrogen is not needed for those either. Exemestane itself is anabolic for the bone. The bone loss from AI is probably from suppressed progesterone synthesis as those drugs are not selective only for aromatase inhibition.
Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism
Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Aromatase inhibitors (AI) are being evaluated as long-term adjuvant therapies and chemopreventives in breast cancer. However, there are concerns about bone mineral density loss in an estrogen-free environment. Unlike nonsteroidal AIs, the steroidal AI exemestane may exert beneficial effects on bone through its primary metabolite 17-hydroexemestane."

 

[ShotTrue]

Estrogen is not needed for those either. Exemestane itself is anabolic for the bone. The bone loss from AI is probably from suppressed progesterone synthesis as those drugs are not selective only for aromatase inhibition.
Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism
Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Aromatase inhibitors (AI) are being evaluated as long-term adjuvant therapies and chemopreventives in breast cancer. However, there are concerns about bone mineral density loss in an estrogen-free environment. Unlike nonsteroidal AIs, the steroidal AI exemestane may exert beneficial effects on bone through its primary metabolite 17-hydroexemestane."

Well androgens are bone growth positive an as you state the AI's have androgenic actions.
Haidut do you have evidence of what I'm assuming is saying letrozole or arimidex suppress or alter progesterone? I'm not arguing against it doing so, I couldn't find anything on a google search
( I definitely can buy letro not acting the same as exemestane)

 

[ShotTrue]

My guess is that the joint pain isn't caused by low estrogen, lowering estrogen (which also lowers serotonin) makes you more aware of the problem spots of your body and makes you more sensitive to pain. That's why SSRIs and SNRI's are used for fibromyalgia, the serotonin isn't fixing the pain, it's just masking it.

I don't think this is accurate, there was an anecdote of a guy making his estrogen almost zero for an entire year for fear of high estrogen symptoms of steroid use and he had permanent joint damage to the point where his motor function was permanently impaired.

And this is the exemestane that @haidut speaks about, I had very serious joint pain as I was a valet at a hotel at the age of 21 and one flight of stairs was very severe pain... nothing like over use of the joint and it went away 3 days after discontinuing the exmestane (it was a single 25 mg dose)

 

[haidut]

Well androgens are bone growth positive an as you state the AI's have androgenic actions.
Haidut do you have evidence of what I'm assuming is saying letrozole or arimidex suppress or alter progesterone? I'm not arguing against it doing so, I couldn't find anything on a google search
( I definitely can buy letro not acting the same as exemestane)

Yes, they do and there are studies posted on the forum about this effect. I think they are posted somewhere in that thread on estrogen and bone growth I linked to, so if you go through it you should be able to find them.

 

[ShotTrue]

My guess is that the joint pain isn't caused by low estrogen, lowering estrogen (which also lowers serotonin) makes you more aware of the problem spots of your body and makes you more sensitive to pain. That's why SSRIs and SNRI's are used for fibromyalgia, the serotonin isn't fixing the pain, it's just masking it.

My natural levels of estrogen were tested at 18 (pg.ml ?) and if I remember correctly when I used exemstane and lowered estrogen too much the pain was severe. Like my kneecaps ripping apart, you could feel intense pain while standing. I remember having to stand only on one leg to mitigate the burning pain in both legs, and I wasn't doing anything steronous at the time, the drug just made standing incredibly painful. I don't think in my early 20's there was anything wrong with my knees that I couldn't physically stand but rather these estrogen lowering drugs causing harsh problems to the joints

 

[ShotTrue]

Yes, they do and there are studies posted on the forum about this effect. I think they are posted somewhere in that thread on estrogen and bone growth I linked to, so if you go through it you should be able to find them.

I'm on my work break but I'll look it up and try to read it later

 

[boxers]

Estrogen is not needed for those either. Exemestane itself is anabolic for the bone. The bone loss from AI is probably from suppressed progesterone synthesis as those drugs are not selective only for aromatase inhibition.
Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism
Exemestane's 17-hydroxylated metabolite exerts biological effects as an androgen. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Aromatase inhibitors (AI) are being evaluated as long-term adjuvant therapies and chemopreventives in breast cancer. However, there are concerns about bone mineral density loss in an estrogen-free environment. Unlike nonsteroidal AIs, the steroidal AI exemestane may exert beneficial effects on bone through its primary metabolite 17-hydroexemestane."

I don't know enough about those. But aren't those studies referring to anabolic steroids? In that case it would be wise to block estrogen a bit.

I guess the whole thing is , there no need to block estrogen when taking TRT doses (100-200mg)

I for one take testosterone and feel i need an AI, but i dont know anymore

So you believe its a good idea to use Aromasin while on TRT dosage and Rouzier is wrong about all the benefits of estrogen?

 

[ShotTrue]

I actually read somewhere, don't have the link atm, but you can actually lose androgen receptors from having too low estrogen.
I was also linked on r/steroids that estrogen is 33% as anabolic as testoterone

 

[Rand56]

oms of steroid use and he had permanent joint damage to the point where his motor function was permanently impaired.

If this guy ever had a Dexa scan done, his bones might have looked worse than this guy's scan results which is shown in this video. Only a 14 minute vid...



Edit: Sorry I messed up on the quote...

"there was an anecdote of a guy making his estrogen almost zero for an entire year for fear of high estrogen symptoms of steroid use and he had permanent joint damage to the point where his motor function was permanently impaired."

 

[boxers]

I never crushed my Estrogen like that. Usually I keep it around 20-30

 

[haidut]

I don't know enough about those. But aren't those studies referring to anabolic steroids? In that case it would be wise to block estrogen a bit.

I guess the whole thing is , there no need to block estrogen when taking TRT doses (100-200mg)

I for one take testosterone and feel i need an AI, but i dont know anymore

So you believe its a good idea to use Aromasin while on TRT dosage and Rouzier is wrong about all the benefits of estrogen?

Yes, I do believe the "benefits" of estrogen are basically none. It has some role in libido but most people have way more than what is optimal. Prolactin in the bottom 25 of the normal range and estradiol in the same range should be enough for good health.
If exemestane is used it may be enough on its own and thus no need for TRT (see below studies). I think exemestane + pregnenolone can achieve everything TRT does and without many of the risks since unlike an AI-only therapy the additional pregnenolone will probably also take care of any possible progesterone suppression by the AI.
Alternatives to testosterone replacement: testosterone restoration McCullough A - Asian J Androl
Effects of Aromatase Inhibition Versus Testosterone in Older Men With Low Testosterone: Randomized-Controlled Trial. - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov