Estrogen E1 More Important For Hair Than Testosteron

OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
Transgender & hair loss forums..
We know estrogens have a modulating role in hair growth cycle. So yes estradiol could grow hair, but it also can inhibit it for example via anandamide via cannabinoid receptors.
If you cannot deliver evidence, what are you even doing here?
I want to see concrete evidence of claims please, not worthless bla bla bla.

Estradiol increases anandamide and inhibits FAAH (R, R2), but it increases FAAH production (R).

Namely, the endocannabinoid N-arachidonoylethanolamide (anandamide, AEA) as well as the exocannabinnoid delta (9) -tetrahydrocannabinol dose-dependently inhibited hair shaft elongation and the proliferation of hair matrix keratinocytes, and induced intraepithelial apoptosis and premature HF regression (catagen). These effects were inhibited by a selective antagonist of cannabinoid receptor-1 (CB1). In contrast to CB2, CB1 was expressed in a hair cycle-dependent manner in the human HF epithelium. Since we successfully identified the presence of endocannabinoids in human HF, our data strongly suggest that human HF exploit a CB1-mediated endocannabinoid signaling system for negatively regulating their own growth. Clinically, CB1 agonists may therefore help to manage unwanted hair growth, while CB1 antagonists might counteract hair loss. Finally, human HF organ culture offers an instructive, physiologically relevant new research tool for dissecting "nonclassical" effects of endocannabinoids and their receptor-mediated signaling in general.
Inhibition of human hair follicle growth... (PDF Download Available). Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._follicle_growth_by_endo-_and_exocannabinoids [accessed May 23 2018].
 
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
Op you’re misunderstanding the fact that... ahem women aren’t men, that they have vastly different amounts of progesterone, estrone estradiol and estriol. That high testosterone is bad for them whereas it’s desirable for us. And so on.
I'm aware of that, Estrone synthesis is not dependent on testosterone in the skin, therefore a valid suspect in hair loss for women and men. See picture in OP, read linked document.

...and estradiol isn’t indeed the hair villain....
Oh no? what is this...
"17β-estradiol inhibits, whereas the estrogen antagonist ICI 182780 stimulates hair growth in gonadectomized male as well as female rodents (Jackson and Ebling, 1972;Hale and Ebling, 1975, 1979;Smart et al, 1999). This effect of estrogen on hair growth is due to an inhibition of the telogen–anagen transition (Oh and Smart, 1996;Chanda et al 2000). Similarly, gonadectomy results in a profound and rapid telogen to anagen transition (Chanda et al 2000). An effect of estrogen on hair growth also in humans is supported by the fact that pregnant women demonstrate a slower rate of replacement of spontaneous hair loss or plucked hair, presumably due to high levels of circulating estrogen (Montagna and Parakkal, 1974). Topical treatment of mouse skin with 17β-estradiol arrest follicles in telogen at the site of application, indicating that an estrogen receptor (ER) pathway within the dermal papilla regulates telogen–anagen transition of the hair follicle (Oh and Smart, 1996)."
 

LCohen

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
257
We know estrogens have a modulating role in hair growth cycle. So yes estradiol could grow hair, but it also can inhibit it for example via anandamide via cannabinoid receptors.
If you cannot deliver evidence, what are you even doing here?
I want to see concrete evidence of claims please, not worthless bla bla bla.

Because I can do anything I want. I don't have to ask you or someone else what to do. I don't like struggle with someone who is completely blind and stubborn. But take a look

Examples for Estradiol cases;

Hormone Replacement Therapy Reverted My Androgenetic Alopecia

Incredible recovery from NW5: the power of super aggressive regimens!

Estrogen Receptors & Hair;

How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth

The Modulation of Aromatase and Estrogen Receptor Alpha in Cultured Human Dermal Papilla Cells by Dexamethasone: A Novel Mechanism for Selective Action of Estrogen via Estrogen Receptor Beta? - ScienceDirect (ER Alpha down-regulation induces hair growth)

Estrogen Receptor Alpha Studies;

Estrogen and inflammation modulate estrogen receptor alpha expression in specific tissues of the temporomandibular joint. - PubMed - NCBI (Inflammation, tissue damage)

Estrogen receptor alpha signaling in inflammatory leukocytes is dispensable for 17beta-estradiol-mediated inhibition of experimental autoimmune encep... - PubMed - NCBI (Inflammation)

Estrogen receptor-alpha as a drug target candidate for preventing lung inflammation. - PubMed - NCBI (Lung damage)

Estrogen receptor alpha in human breast cancer: occurrence and significance. - PubMed - NCBI (Breast cancer)

Increases in serum estrone sulfate level are associated with increased mammographic density during menopausal hormone therapy. - PubMed - NCBI (Estrone, breast tissue, menopause)

The expression and function of estrogen receptor alpha and beta in human breast cancer and its clinical application. - PubMed - NCBI (Breast cancer; shows that ERBeta suppress cancer via suppressing ERAlpha)

Selective estrogen receptor-beta agonists repress transcription of proinflammatory genes. - PubMed - NCBI (Anti-inflammatory effects of ERBeta)

Estriol; the ‘Good’ Estrogen Advances and Updates in its Clinical Uses - Restorative Medicine (Beneficial effects of Estriol on auto-immunity, blood pressure, lipids, inflammation)

Topical Estriol in Dermatology: A Review (Estriol, dermatology)

Inhibition of GPR30 by estriol prevents growth stimulation of triple-negative breast cancer cells by 17β-estradiol (Protective effects of Estriol in breast cancer)
 
Last edited:
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
less testosterone, more estrogen, is what constitutes the typical person losing hair though, like the guy with the giant gut, develop gyno, and has MPB, what are you saying, that only that specific type of estrogen will increase hair growth? it seems like a double edged sword right? how people taking diane35 or whatever will lose libido, or trans genders will lose testosterone, but develop hair, but regular men with the signs of MPB will also be increasing estrogen, but i dont know the difference between these two cases
-Well, yeah, but also with increased progesterone that helps with being a negative allosteric modulator against overactive Estradiol.
-Interesting
 
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
Estrone elevations probably explain why the hair of pregnant women grows so long and thick.
Possibly... But also the follicle stay longer in the anagen or growth phase and less in the rest phase, which is also a difference between gender.

"In contrast to the inhibition observed in other mammals, limited studies suggest that estrogens may have a stimulatory effect on human hair growth. During pregnancy there is an increase in the ratio of hair follicles in the growing phase of the cycle; after parturition, these follicles enter the resting phase, resulting in increased hair shedding and a transient thinning of the hair (Lynfield 1960). These events have been ascribed to the changes in the level of circulating estrogen during, and immediately following pregnancy. However, it is difficult to accredit this phenomenon entirely to the rise in plasma estrogen as several other hormones and growth factors that modulate hair growth are also altered at this time.

There is some limited trichogram data to suggest that estrogens decrease the resting phase and prolong the growing phase of the hair cycle, hence estrogens are used in the treatment of female pattern hair loss in some countries (Sinclair 1999). Further evidence for a stimulatory effect of estrogens on human hair growth comes from the treatment of women with tamoxifen which may result in scalp hair thinning or recession in some women (Gateley and Bundred 1997; Ayoub et al 1997). Likewise, a common treatment-related side effect of aromatase inhibitors, which inhibit the synthesis of estrogen, is scalp hair thinning in women (Buzdar et al 2001; Simpson et al 2004).

Recent in vitro studies have shown that 17β-estradiol inhibits female scalp hair shaft elongation (Nelson 2006), although stimulation occurs in hair follicles derived from frontotemporal male scalp (Conrad et al 2004; Conrad and Paus 2004). In addition, in female hair follicles the phytoestrogen, genistein inhibits hair shaft elongation to a similar extent as 17β-estradiol. Since genistein preferentially binds to ERβ, this opens the possibility that the inhibition of hair growth in response to 17β-estradiol may be mediated via ERβ rather than ERα (Nelson 2006). Therefore the development of selective estrogen receptor ligands may provide important clinical applications for the prevention and treatment of disorders of hair growth."
Effect of estrogens on skin aging and the potential role of SERMs
 
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
The root issue is the same anyway, it’s a poor metabolism (too much stress, insufficient nutrition) leading to hypothyroidism and low enzyme activity. In men, this leads to low T, high tissue DHT. We certainly don’t care about estrone, and estradiol isn’t indeed the hair villain. A healthy thyroid has a healthy balance in DHT metabolites, one of them acting like an estrogen and being protective.
Thank you for your input @benaoao , Any idea what is the mechanism behind excessive tissue DHT? how do you think we can reduce or rather prevent this tissue buildup of DHT? Would a DHT displacement on SHBG be something useful, like Beta sitosterols ? Massages ?
 

LCohen

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
257
Thank you for your input @benaoao , Any idea what is the mechanism behind excessive tissue DHT? how do you think we can reduce or rather prevent this tissue buildup of DHT? Would a DHT displacement on SHBG be something useful, like Beta sitosterols ? Massages ?

DHT should be converted to something called 3B-Diol. T3 thyroid does that.

That way DHT, protects against estrogen & cortisol, acts like an anti-inflammatory, even treats prostate problems.

This DHT enzyme actually activates ERBeta too.
 

LeeLemonoil

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
4,265
It’s not an enzyme but a metabolite, but I‘m also a proponent of 3b-diol. Sadly, because wiki states it’s an estrogen (how stupid are theses authors?) it got negative attention here on RP-Forum.
Estriol looks interesting and protective too, but peat himself wrote it’s also a harmful estrogen- though his arguments for that claim are not as strong or substantiated as most of his writing is. He might be wrong in this
 
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
[edit: I Am responding to my own question here:]
Thank you for your input @benaoao , Any idea what is the mechanism behind excessive tissue DHT? how do you think we can reduce or rather prevent this tissue buildup of DHT? Would a DHT displacement on SHBG be something useful, like Beta sitosterols ? Massages ?
Adrenal-derived-C-19-steroids-act-as-precursors-for-the-production-of-more-potent.png


https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-the-production-of-more-potent_fig1_236201265

We see here the mechanism involved for getting DHT in the skin.
We see DHEA is chopped into A into T then the last step involved is 5AR > DHT.

Would 5AR be overactive and steal away our precious T ? Or 17bHSD be overactive?
Or something else be going on with Androstenedione?
Androstenedione comes in the skin tissue, see figure, and somehow does not go to hair growth receptors and is stuck there.
Lets assume some estrogen is needed for the hair growth receptor, like E1.
But somehow aromatase is not active enough to make E1.
In other words Androstenedione does not get synthesized into E1 via aromatase, so eventually catches 17bHSD > 5AR and becomes DHT.
DHT accumulates in hair follicle and shrinks it.

Now I must conclude something crazy: aromatase is not active enough, so Androstenedione is shunted into DHT.

I propose an inducer for aromatase would help in this situation.
Natural candidates are: quercetin and soy
Induction and inhibition of aromatase (CYP19) activity by natural and synthetic flavonoid compounds in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells. - PubMed - NCBI

In theory topical application of these should reduce conversion of Androstenedione into DHT.
 
Last edited:

Scenes

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2017
Messages
489
Adrenal-derived-C-19-steroids-act-as-precursors-for-the-production-of-more-potent.png


https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-the-production-of-more-potent_fig1_236201265

We see here the mechanism involved for getting DHT in the skin.
We see DHEA is chopped into A into T then the last step involved is 5AR > DHT.

Would 5AR be overactive and steal away our precious T ? Or 17bHSD be overactive?
Or something else be going on with Androstenedione?
Androstenedione comes in the skin tissue, see figure, and somehow does not go to hair growth receptors and is stuck there.
Lets assume some estrogen is needed for the hair growth receptor, like E1.
But somehow aromatase is not active enough to make E1.
In other words Androstenedione does not get synthesized into E1 via aromatase, so eventually catches 17bHSD > 5AR and becomes DHT.
DHT accumulates in hair follicle and shrinks it.

Now I must conclude something crazy: aromatase is not active enough, so Androstenedione is shunted into DHT.

I propose an inducer for aromatase would help in this situation.
Natural candidates are: quercetin and soy
Induction and inhibition of aromatase (CYP19) activity by natural and synthetic flavonoid compounds in H295R human adrenocortical carcinoma cells. - PubMed - NCBI

In theory topical application of these should reduce conversion of Androstenedione into DHT.

There are people claiming this estrogen product helps regrow hair around the hairline. Tiny new hairs popping up within a few weeks. No sides reported so far.
https://au.iherb.com/pr/Life-Flo-He...N6GcWV2EUsq1Ji_BP4BoCWeQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

LeeLemonoil

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
4,265
Also, Estriol is described as "anti-estrgenic in the presence of E2" and E4 alltogether is void of any estrogenic actions. Estriol, as in the aboved product, acts on the ERbeta
 
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
So, I figured out a way to make a DIY home made Quercetin and Genistein - Hair Grow lotion / cream

needed:
  • coconut oil
  • olive oil
  • soy milk powder
  • onion powder
  • saliva from mouth
  • (some emulsifier)
- after waking before brushing, swish some water in mouth and spit it in cup. This will break down the sugar bonds of our Isoquercetine and Genistin to make Quercetin and Genistein.
- take a small pot add X amount of soy & onion powder in water and cook for 15+ minutes. Vaporize most of the water. filter out pulp residue, keep the reduced juice. Cool to around room temp.
- add saliva to the juice and let it sit for 24+ hours edit: in a closed container
- add coconut oil and olive oil 50 /50 I guess (olive oil increased skin barrier permeability)
- (add emulsifier to make a cream)

Genistin - Wikipedia
Flavonoid Glucosides Are Hydrolyzed and Thus Activated in the Oral Cavity in Humans | The Journal of Nutrition | Oxford Academic

Only thing left is look for a good DHT blocker and add it in the mix...
 
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
Update - No Genistein for Females

Recent in vitro studies have shown that 17β-estradiol inhibits female scalp hair shaft elongation (Nelson 2006), although stimulation occurs in hair follicles derived from frontotemporal male scalp (Conrad et al 2004; Conrad and Paus 2004). In addition, in female hair follicles the phytoestrogen, genistein inhibits hair shaft elongation to a similar extent as 17β-estradiol. Since genistein preferentially binds to ERβ, this opens the possibility that the inhibition of hair growth in response to 17β-estradiol may be mediated via ERβ rather than ERα (Nelson 2006). Therefore the development of selective estrogen receptor ligands may provide important clinical applications for the prevention and treatment of disorders of hair growth.
- So females are better of with only Quercetin in their solution for hair growth.

-Note, 17β-estradiol inhibits female scalp hair shaft elongation, but stimulation occurs in frontotemporal male scalp.
So, no, estradiol containing cremes are not a good overall solution.
 
Last edited:
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
Tired of oily scalp and hair loss?

Topical application of Quercetin should reduce sebum from the hair follicle as well.

Quercetin inhibits the enzyme 17beta HSD 5 that converts Androstenedione into Testosterone which then converts into DHT via 5AR. These androgens are known to stimulate sebaceous glands and so increase sebum.

When applied topically and looking at the skin level, the Aromatase enzymes can convert more Androgens into E1 and less T into E2, and in turn E1 will also convert into E2. Re-balancing the natural dynamics between them to work at modulating hair cycles and freeing up the scalp / skin from excess oily sebum.

Andro-meta-skin.png


17b-hsd intra.jpg

edit link .pdf


17bhsd5.jpg

Human 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 5 is inhibited by dietary flavonoids. - PubMed - NCBI

quercetin aromatase inducer.jpg




Quercetin is also effective against mast cells and prostaglandin d2
Quercetin Is More Effective than Cromolyn in Blocking Human Mast Cell Cytokine Release and Inhibits Contact Dermatitis and Photosensitivity in Humans

For instance, this year it was noted that balding males 18-35 years old were found to have increased adrenal production of DHEA, which was "significantly associated with increased clinical severity of male pattern androgenic alopecia.”[6] Moreover, the group had a mean thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) level of 2.5 μIU/mL suggesting a higher functioning pituitary and enhanced cortisol secretion.[7] Another study performed this year also found increased levels of DHEA in those with premature baldness, in addition to higher levels of prolactin, and a lower sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG), which is a common feature of baldness.[8]
Levels of TGF-b1 are closely related to the progression of pattern baldness,[23] and alongside hypoxia, the accumulation and activation of mast cells,[24] and an increased concentration of prostaglandins reinforce the view that the defining feature of pattern baldness, a decreased anagen to telogen ratio, is the result of chronic scalp inflammation and an inability to repair.[25]
The Mysterious Conductor of the Hair Cycle Clock

That is the hypothesis at least. I'm going to make a cream myself to test this.

I have found that the onion peel is better source for Q as it has 48-fold the Quercetin than the fleshy outer layers. The peel and the first two layers are usually discarded in factory processing of union powder.
And onion juice just smells very bad, so the peel extract wins here, that is if you can get consistent extract from onions. The Quercetin content in onion can vary a lot.
Of course you could buy a Quercetin cream or extract and make a cream with that. Less hassle.

You also see people using raw onion juice for hair growth, which seems to work, but this is not recommended coz, it contains Trypsin inhibitors that need to be inactivated by cooking first, else it could worsen hair fall.

Using the synchronized hair growth mouse model (3, 4) we showed that topical trypsin treatment, immediately after depilation, induced cell death at the follicular papilla. This death signal, which is independent of the proteolytic activity of the protease, resulted in delaying hair growth and pigmentation (26). Here we show that the trypsin inhibitors STI and BBI also lead to delayed hair growth, as well as to reduced follicle dimensions and reduced pigment deposition within the hair shaft. Since we could not detect apoptotic cells in the papillae of soymilk, STI or BBI treated mice (not shown), we suggest that STI and BBI do not affect papillae cell death, but exert their effect on hair growth and size via a different mechanism.
Soymilk reduces hair growth and hair follicle dimensions in mouse model
M. Seiberg, J.-C. Liu, L. Babiarz, E. Sharlow and S. Shapiro

What you guys think? Think it will work?
 
Last edited:
OP
General Orange
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
1,142
Location
The Netherlands
An interesting study that supports the idea that upregulating aromatase can edit: have beneficial effects for hair growth (and seems to involve estrone somewhat) interestingly here they use 17alpha-estradiol tu increase aromatase expression and reduce DHT:


17alpha-estradiol induces aromatase activity in intact human anagen hair follicles ex vivo. - PubMed - NCBI
"For topical treatment of androgenetic alopecia (AGA) in women, solutions containing either estradiol benzoate, estradiol valerate, 17beta- or 17alpha-estradiol are commercially available in Europe and some studies show an increased anagen and decreased telogen rate after treatment as compared with placebo.
At present it is not precisely known how estrogens mediate their beneficial effect on AGA-affected hair follicles. We have shown recently that 17alpha-estradiol is able to diminish the amount of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) formed by human hair follicles after incubation with testosterone, while increasing the concentration of weaker steroids such as estrogens.
Because aromatase is involved in the conversion of testosterone to estrogens and because there is some clinical evidence that aromatase activity may be involved in the pathogenesis of AGA, we addressed the question whether aromatase is expressed in human hair follicles and whether 17alpha-estradiol is able to modify the aromatase activity.
Herewith we were able to demonstrate that intact, microdissected hair follicles from female donors express considerably more aromatase activity than hair follicles from male donors. Using immunohistochemistry, we detected the aromatase mainly in the epithelial parts of the hair follicle and not in the dermal papilla. Furthermore, we show that in comparison to the controls, we noticed in 17alpha-estradiol-incubated (1 nM) female hair follicles a concentration- and time-dependent increase of aromatase activity (at 24 h: 1 nM = +18%, 100 nM = +25%, 1 micro M = +57%; 24 h: 1 nM = +18%, 48 h: 1 nM = +25%).
In conclusion, our ex vivo experiments suggest that under the influence of 17alpha-estradiol an increased conversion of testosterone to 17beta-estradiol and androstendione to estrone takes place, which might explain the beneficial effects of estrogen treatment of AGA."
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom