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Energin - Liquid B-Complex Vitamin Mix

  1. Hi all,

    After several weeks of experimentation, we are finally ready to start offering the B complex supplement I mentioned in my previous threads. We are calling it Energin. It is designed for topical administration. For the topical method I used a slightly modified ethanol solution, so basically the supplement is a mix of high purity B vitamins in 20% ethanol. Other than the B vitamins (all of them with greater than 98% purity) and the diluted ethanol, there is nothing else in the bottle. Here are some basic facts about the supplement.

    EDIT (12/15/18): We changed the Energin bottle from 2 ounce to the 1 ounce size. The amount of vitamins per dose and the servings per bottle (30) stay the same. So, basically, the same product but more concentrated and thus with less liquid. Many people have asked for smaller bottles as measuring 40 drops from the 2oz bottle is tedious and with the new bottle a single serving will be only 20 drops. Also, the smaller bottle is obviously lighter and this will lower shipping costs, especially for international orders.

    : This product contains raw material(s) meant for external use only, in cosmetic or other formulations designed for such external use.

    Serving size - 20 drops
    Servings per container - 30

    Each serving contains:
    Thiamine HCL (Vitamin B1): 50 mg
    Riboflavin-5-Phosphate (Vitamin B2): 15 mg
    Niacinamide (Vitamin B3): 100 mg
    D-Panthenol (Vitamin B5): 50 mg
    Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate (Vitamin B6): 6 mg
    Biotin (Vitamin B7): 1 mg

    Other ingredients: add product to shopping cart to see info
    Based on a study "j." posted about a month ago, the topical absorption is over 90% for the vitamins above. The vitamins above were chosen since he has written about them in many of his articles. For the people wondering why Energin does not contain folic acid, or B12, please see this discussion:
    DNA Methylation, Aging, And Cancer
    If you have any questions, feel free to ask me here or send me a PM.
    Thanks again for your patience.
  2. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Oh happy day!

    :carrot2 :carrot2 :carrot2
  3. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    FYI - there is another one in the works, based on some research I have been doing with amino acids and caffeine.
  4. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hi Haidut,

    What do you think of switching from thiamine HCL to thiamine pyrophosphate ( later may be...)?
    The coenzymated vitamins are really the best options for those with impair liver function ( and who here has a "normal" liver function?)
    If you could do that (later, may be? :D ), it would be great!
    Adding biotin to the mix is an excellent idea, too.
    Anyway, keep up the good work.
  5. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I would be interested to know what is know about topical absorption of pyrophosphate/coenzymated vitamin forms. I tawdrily admit I have not tried to research the topic recently, and am wondering if others have info on the cuff.

    I don't know enough compelling work about biotin in any direction to advocate.

    A very small animal study, just suggestive about biotin transit in metabolism:

    Nutrition. 2013 Oct;29(10):1266-70. doi: 10.1016/j.nut.2013.04.011.
    Consumption of a low-carbohydrate and high-fat diet (the ketogenic diet) exaggerates biotin deficiency in mice.
    Yuasa M1, Matsui T, Ando S, Ishii Y, Sawamura H, Ebara S, Watanabe T.

    Biotin is a water-soluble vitamin that acts as a cofactor for several carboxylases. The ketogenic diet, a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet, is used to treat drug-resistant epilepsy and promote weight loss...special infant formulas used in Japan... do not contain sufficient amounts of biotin, biotin deficiency can develop in infants.... Therefore, the aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of the ketogenic diet on biotin status in mice.

    Male mice (N = 32) were divided into the following groups: control diet group, biotin-deficient (BD) diet group, ketogenic control diet group, and ketogenic biotin-deficient (KBD) diet group. Eight mice were used in each group.

    At 9 wk, the typical symptoms of biotin deficiency such as hair loss and dermatitis had only developed in the KBD diet group. The total protein expression level of biotin-dependent carboxylases and the total tissue biotin content were significantly decreased in the KBD and BD diet groups. However, these changes were more severe in the KBD diet group.

    These findings demonstrated that the ketogenic diet increases biotin bioavailability and consumption, and hence, promotes energy production by gluconeogenesis and branched-chain amino acid metabolism, which results in exaggerated biotin deficiency in biotin-deficient mice. Therefore, biotin supplementation is important for mice that consume the ketogenic diet. It is suggested that individuals that consume the ketogenic diet have an increased biotin requirement.
  6. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Peat wrote in several of his articles that biotin deficiency triggers glycolysis and extra biotin restrains it.


    "...Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976)."

    Also, he wrote about either Warburg or Szent-Györgyi believing that cancer was caused by biotin deficiency (likely connected to it stimulating glycolysis). Peat did not disagree with that statement, so I am assuming he at least somewhat approves of biotin supplementation.

    Finally, all of the B vitamins are absorbable topically. In fact, with ethanol solution they have better absorption than oral but the oral route is better in the sense that you can ingest a much larger dose.
  7. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I sort of assume he doesn't explicitely advocate supplementing things like biotin as in theory it could be produced and absorbed in the gut with little reliance on food sources.
  8. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thanks for jogging my addled brain cells. In my perusing, there's less literature on biotin than some of the other B's–I have been pleading ignorance. I think Warburg knew about biotin through his colleague Dean Burk (biotin's co-discoverer, among other ways, though I do not know how the two got along.

    (as an aside, I did not know of Burk's concern about fluoridation:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Burk "After retiring from the NCI in 1974, Dean Burk remained active. He devoted himself to his opposition to water fluoridation.")

    My Warburg archives are not scanned or digitized so I cannot readily search. Here's one recent opining, which I have only skimmed:

    http://pharmaceuticalintelligence.com/2 ... tury-view/

    "The M2 PK bottleneck between glycolysis and the citric acid cycle is a typical feature of tumor cell glycolysis.

    Above the bottleneck, the massive entry of glucose accumulates PEP, which converts to OAA via mitochondria PEP carboxykinase, an enzyme requiring biotine-CO2-GDP. This source of OAA is abnormal, since Pcarb, another biotin-requiring enzyme, should have provided OAA. Tumors may indeed contain “morule inclusions” of biotin-enzyme suggesting an inhibition of Pcarb, presumably a consequence of the maintained citrate synthase activity, and decrease of ketone bodies that normally stimulate Pcarb."
  9. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam


    How many drops in 1 ml?
    As I like to take very small amount of vitamins at a time, it would be interesting to know it.
    You did not respond to my question, above, about the B1..... :cry:
  10. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Great idea, I will check with the supplier if they carry thiamine pyrophosphate. I was thinking of maybe using allithiamine, which is fat soluble and has almost 100% bioavailability but it just smells and tastes horribly, which won't fly well with topical or oral administration.
  11. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    One (1) ml is 20 drops using the built in dropper of the bottle. I know it's a lot of drops but I cannot find bottles that produce larger drops. If someone has a bottle at home with a separate dropper from another liquid supplement they have bought before then they can pour Energin into that bottle and use its dropper. I think the glass bottles with separate droppers measure something like 10 drops per 1 ml.
  12. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hey haidut,

    Do you mind explaining the reasoning behind the various amounts of each vitamin you chose for this supplement? In particular, the thiamine dose, since it falls within that cancer cell proliferation range of 15-70% RDA you mention in one of your General Discussion threads.
  13. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    All of the water soluble vitamins have certain solubility in ethanol and water. So the dosages are as close to the maximum solubility for each vitamin as possible. For vitamin B6 we only dissolved what Ray considers a good dose (i.e. <10mg).
    Also, keep in mind that the old study "j." posted in another thread showed topical absorption close to 90% and it avoids the liver, so if you use this vitamin topically the plasma concentrations would be comparable to an oral dosage 15-20 times higher, which puts the thiamine way into the safe range.
  14. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thanks for that explanation haidut! I did not realize the topical absorption was much greater than orally consumed B vitamins. I really like you vit AEDK product and look forward to trying this energin one as well.
  15. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    You are welcome. Let me know how it goes with Energin. The only drawback that I see with it is that due to the riboflavin it will stain the skin at the place of application. But that disappears after a few washes.
  16. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hello everyone. My family and I will be out of town until June 11, so we won't be able to process and ship orders. Thus, I have "closed" the online store until June 11. If people are willing to place orders now but have them shipped on June 12, please let me know and I will leave the store open while we are out. Otherwise, I am looking forward to restarting the order processing in about 3 weeks. I will still try to post on the forum even while we are out, depending on availability of Internet connection. Thank you for your understanding!
  17. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Wilfrid, did you get bad effects taking the HCL form of B1?
  18. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I got some jittery feelings as well as some loose stools when I took it.
    Those symptoms usually begins at a dosage as low as 10 mg ( I used the purebulk thiamine HCL powder.).
    Last year, a pharmacist's friend managed to get me some pure thiamine pyrophosphate powder from Sigma Aaldricht and I didn't get any bad effect at all, even at dosage up to 50mg.
    However, I'm running out of it and now I'm taking a product called Bio-B 100 from Biotics research, which is a very low dose coenzymated B supp that I can tolerate very well without any side effects and I combined it with liquid version of liquid coenzymated B1 (from Metabolics a UK vitamin supplier) and liquid coenzymated B6 from Epigenetics (also a UK company).
    So far so good but the Thiamine HCL through oral route is a no-no for me.
    Ray suggest me to dissolve the thiamine HCL in vodka and to use it on skin but I don't make this experience so far.
    May be in the future...
  19. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    What are positive effects you felt from B1 supplementation?
  20. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    One of the positive effect I got during the time I took the thiamine pyrophosphate was a subtle but net energy gain. After 2-3 days on it, I didn't feel the need to take my daily nap in the afternoon.
    It was like taking a few mcg of cynomel...my metabolism seemed to improve somewhat on it.
    The dose I used was 10 mg. I tried for few days a dose up to 50 mg but didn't feel any difference in term of well-being.
    Now, on the low dose, this effect almost vanished.
    The other net positive effect was that my appetite ramp up on it and my stress level went down.
    I can't objectively describe the " stress went down" thing but I felt less irritable and became more focused on any given task at work without the feeling of "urgency" that I usually got.
    And last thing, my digestion improved on it while it was clearly worse on the thiamine HCL.
  21. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hello everyone! I am back and the store is online again. So feel free to order whatever you need, or contact me with questions/comments.
    Thanks for your patience.
  22. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I'm interested in Energin but worry about b2. I thought it was allergenic? Maybe not when applied topically?
    Also when applied topically, do you feel the effects as strong as when taken orally. I know absorption is SUPPOSED to be higher, but what you feel is what really counts.
  23. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Also, are the effects of Stressnon noticeable when used topically.
  24. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Where are the best locations to apply topically for best absorption?
  25. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    The riboflavin we use is 99.9% purity. I use it personally and have never had any bad reaction to it. In fact, it's pure enough to be given IV so there should be close to nothing dangerous in it. Of course, there are people with sensitivities that may still react to it. I get a consistently improved vision clarity from about 20mg riboflavin daily.
  26. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Given that it would stain due to the B2 and B6 in it, I would use it somewhere where it would not be very visible. For me, the forearm is best especially if I wear a shirt that would cover the stain afterwards.
  27. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thanks, I doubt the b2 will be a issue. I just for some reason remember ray saying it should not be used.

    How well do you feel topical preg. is absorbed?
  28. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    About the same as the topical progesterone. Since a dose of StressNon has 100mg of pregnenolone, when I take it topically I sweat profusely and have an energy to play a 90min soccer game. Orally, I get a lot less pronounced effect but funny enough when taken orally I get more of a mental boost for some reason. Weird, I know. It's probably due to the difference in metabolism when taken orally and topically. Maybe when I take it orally my liver converts it into more progesterone, while when done topically I get more of the DHEA metabolic pathway. Go figure...
  29. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Got my energin today!! :woo

    Man, it tastes baaaad. :? But it sure gave me a terrific energy boost.
    Chased it with a heaping tsp of manuka honey but I think I better mix them together next time.

    I tried a half dozen or so drops topically but I won't be doing that again unless I don't have to leave the house. The orange stain reminded me of really bad tanning lotion. :lol:

    Thanks so much haidut. I appreciate the purity of your supplements.
  30. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I am glad it is working as expected:): As far as the orange stains, I only use it topically when I know I will be wearing a long sleeve shirt. The spot washes out every time a take a shower so it is not that big of a deal for me. Either way, I figured it would be nice to have a supplement with dual application (oral/topical) since some people cannot absorb well orally and they would tolerate the stains if it means getting back their energy and motivation.
  31. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Oh yes, the stain washes out fine and I absolutely agree it's worth it if topically is the only way to go. I'm certainly not complaining and love having both options. :)

    How long do you think you need to wait before washing it off?
  32. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Well, the studies I have seen claim that as long as their moisture on the skin there will be some absorption, but after the first 90min the remaining absorption is probably too negligible to care about. So, if you can wait 2 hours it should be all good.
  33. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Doesn't alcohol destroy thiamine?

    https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=%2 ... hiamine%22
  34. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I think the links you found refer to alcohol destroying thiamine in the sense that the process of metabolizing alcohol in the body depletes thiamine stores. So, if one drinks a lot and does not eat they may get thiamine deficiency. But alcohol in itself does not destroy thiamine and in fact there are quite a few medical products with ethanol solutions of thiamine.
  35. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hi Haidut, Hope you don't mind me intruding on this thread with a tangential question - you seem likely to know something about it.
    I'm wanting to make up my own brew for just a week at a time with different proportions than your energin (I'm experimenting with high B2 against migraine). If I just mix the powders into water, how quickly do they deteriorate? Are they likely to still be good at the end of the week? I'm currently only doing it with 50 mg B6 for the week, using distilled water, a glass bottle, and storing in the fridge. Any reason not to add the B1, B3, B6 to the same bottle?
    I first asked this question here but have not had any responses:
  36. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Some of the B vitamins like B2 and B6 have poor solubility when using the Hcl salts. So you need to find the phosphate salts in order to have them dissolve well in water/alcohol and not precipitate. You can add all of the vitamins you mentioned and also B2 in higher doses, but at normal temperatures you will hit saturation pretty quickly, so I don't think you will be able to reach the doses of B2 required for migraine treatment (200mg+). Also, I think B2 is degraded easily by direct sunlight so it needs to be protected. Keeping the solution in the fridge is probably best.
  37. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thanks Haidut, :)
    If i use a 500ml bottle, and shake before pouring, is that likely to overcome these problems?
    What about then adding a bit of this to a bottle of OJ for the day, so the dose gets spread through the day?
  38. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Shaking won't change much. Like I mentioned above the Hcl salts of some B vitamins are very poorly soluble in water.
    As far as OJ - it should be OK to mix vitamins in it and drink the mix.
  39. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thank Haidut,
    Any reason to think the HCL versions won't be used by the body, or is it jus that they don't dissolve in water? I already have some I'd like to use.
    Are you aware of any risks with high B2 (200-400mg)?
  40. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    The Hcl salts are OK to use. Most capsules/tablets use the Hcl salts. It's just that for some vitamins that salt does not dissolve well.
    There are studies on PubMed of using 200mg-400mg for migraine and mitochondrial disorders. As far as safety - B2 (if pure) does not really have a known toxic range and is used as a color in foods for that reason. But I don't know much about its long term safety of administration, so use at your own risk for such high doses.
  41. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Would it be absorbed on ankles?
  42. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Also do you have any advice on the timing of taking your 3 supplements?
  43. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Want to say I got a great energy boost from Energin, too. I just got my second bottle, and ordered all three Idealabs products for my sister.

    FWIW, coffee with cream and sugar masks the taste pretty well for me. I usually use the last swigs from my first cup of coffee for half the days dose, do the other half later in the day.
  44. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I can not say I experienced an energy boost from Energin, but I was drinking a lot of alcohol during the period I was taking it. My hangovers were much less severe to non-existent, which I guess is a type of boost in energy even if I wasn't feeling energetic compared to my non-alcoholic self. I would recommend taking Energin if you decide to booze it up.
  45. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I would say each one is a different tool for helping address the underlying hypothyroidism issues. EstroBan should probably be taken whenever ones has exposure to PUFAs or suspects estrogen overload. StressNon tends to be helpful in cases where chronic stress exhausts the brain and the protective neurosteroids, which also happen to boost metabolism as well. Pregnenoone is also an activator of cytochrome P450, which is one of the main detoxifying pathways in the organism. Energin would assist in converting sugar into T3 and CO2, as well as detoxifying the liver from poisons like alcohol, estrogen, heavy metals, etc. So, I don't think I have a recommended schedule but rather take as needed based on activity and metabolic state. If eating out, I'd take EstroBan. If drinking, I'd take Energin. If under chronic (unescapable) stress I'd take StressNon.
    I hope that makes sense.
  46. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    It should be absorbed wherever there is contact with skin, which I think is everywhere except the eyeballs and nails:):
  47. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thanks, I am glad it is helping.
  48. Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I'd second that. Vitamin B1 and B3 are especially important in helping metabolize alcohol and prevent oxidative damage to the brain and liver from heavy drinking. Also, the lower the PUFA stores in the body the less damage alcohol does.
  49. :2cents :2cents :2cents :2cents
  50. Just wanted to add that vitamin B1 and B2 are crucial for the ability of the liver to excrete estrogen. So, for people trying to lower estrogen, using Energin with EstroBan may have synergistic effects. Has anybody done blood work before/after using each supplement?
  51. Haidut - Does Energin contain B7 (biotin)? The amounts of each vitamin per serving size appear to be missing from the Energin product page on the website.

    If B7 is not in there, do you plan on adding it based on your recent post about it improving glucose control?
  52. From the data sheet that comes with it:

    B1 (Thiamine HCL) 50mg
    B2 (Riboflavin 5' Phosphate) 15mg
    B3 (Niacinamide) 100mg
    B6 (Pyridoxine 5' Phosphate) 6mg
    B7 (Biotin) 1mg

    Distilled water and 20% ethanol solution, can be applied topically/dermally as well as orally.

    I talked to my sister last night and she liked it, and the ADEK.
  53. Biotin is in there, it is a very important vitamin. Some people did report lower blood glucose after taking Energin for a while so it seems to be helping with that.
  54. haidut - How come energin does not include things such as B5 and B12?
  55. Poor solubility and not much effect on mitochondrial health, estrogen detoxification or lactate/CO2. Also, Ray has written individually about each vitamin in Energin and has more or less sanctioned supplementation.
  56. This will be perfect to go along with estroban, can't wait to try it :)
  57. Yep, in one interview Ray said that the B vitamins and the fat soluble vitamins are very good ways to reduce tissue estrogen. They complement each other quite well. In addition, the K vitamin in EstroBan plus the B vitamins in Energin are very helpful for the liver.
  58. Hey Haidut, my latest full batch of Energin, the powder (assuming this is the B-vitamins?) has settled out at the bottom into white crystals clumped together (left for a week in the fridge when I went on vacation), and despite shaking and shaking, they don't disperse.

    Anything I can do? I'm assuming these are the active ingredients so I'll be missing out on them if they are in crystals at the bottom.
  59. In the future, I would not keep in the fridge since the ingredients precipitate at lower temperatures. Just keep it in dark location to avoid sunlight affecting vitamin B2. One thing you can do is pour the liquid and crystals into a bowl or cup and heat to about 50-60 degree C. This should make the ingredients dissolve again. Then pour back into the dropper bottle.
  60. This has happened to me, too. Also been storing it in the fridge.
  61. I'm glad you brought that up, aquaman, I've been seeing the same thing. I poured it into a glass dropper bottle and nuked it for ~25 seconds, it took a little swirling but the crystals all dissolved. Good to go.
  62. Hi all! I'm going to use Energin and Estroban on my kids(under 2) topically as a part of a nutritional boost program to help their development. Anyone have any experience in using those for kids. I was going to use 1/4 of an adult dose on them.
  63. Since the vitamins are dissolved in alcohol, I'd ask a doctor before using on kids under 2 years old. As far as testimonials, I'll let othes speak.
  64. Thanks, Haidut. Is alcohol a problem with topical application? I'll check with a doctor.
  65. It should not be a problem, but since these are small children we are talking about I'd be extra careful.
  66. I've always gotten major neck and jaw tension when supplementing any kind of B vitamin, even small doses of niacinamide powder. Would applying this product and/or solban topically make it more or less likely that I would experience that side effect?
  67. I don't know the answer that unfortunately. The best way is to try and see. If you are sensitive to B vitamins in general I don't see how the topical application will change things. It it's just your stomach acting up when you ingest B vitamins then Energin used topically may be better.
  68. Question about staining. I don't mind if it stains my skin, but I'm worried about it staining my clothes. I've been rubbing Energin on my low legs and ankles in the mornings and it can stain my socks a bit. I only seem to be able to rub around 1/4 dose around the ankles. For a larger dose I'm going to need a bigger surface area.
    So I'm trying to figure out how long it takes to fully dry before coming off onto clothes. It seems if I sweat at all, the stain could start coming off even if it initially dried. Anyone have thoughts on how to avoid clothing stains?
  69. What about armpits and the inside of knees? These areas tend to not have that much contact with clothes.
  70. Unfortunately my pits and knees have a lot of contact with my clothes. Perhaps men (or some men) wear looser tops, but as a woman, some of my tops are more form fitting. Also, I tend to sweat out of my pits (thank you, cortisol) so I could see that being an issue.
    Maybe I am just out of luck on days I need to wear nice clothes. Would love to be able to do my belly if it dried within a few minutes, but I'm still worried about residual staining.
  71. Absolutely. Take the bottle and tilt it just above your mouth and squeeze slightly. All the drops should land on your tongue without any landing on your clothes and staining them. Give it a shot and let me know how it goes ;-)
  72. Then I guess the only other area would be behind the inner side of ear lobes facing the head. That and wrists.
  73. Guess I'm due for the oral route ;)
  74. Behind the ears would probably work, but not a lot of surface area. Wrists could be ok, but with long sleeves or simply putting your arms at your sides it could rub into clothes.
    I know, I'm being whiny about this. Just not tolerating much orally these days and wish transdermal was easier.
    Thanks for your responses though!
  75. I would be interested in a version of this without vitamin B2 (which is causing the color I guess ?).

    I would say that vitamin B2 also gives the least of therapeutic benefits, but it gives the most of problems (on clothes :P )
  76. Ray said that B3 and B2 are the two most important vitamins for respiration. In fact, B3 is responsible for about 80% of the ATP produced in a single cycle, while the other 20% come from riboflavin. If you look on Pubmed you will see plenty of human studies where people with mitochondrial problems got cured by high doses riboflavin. B2 is also the vitamin that directly protects the retina from degeneration. You don't think your eyes are not important do you?
  77. I think my eyes are important, but I think I get plenty vitamin B2 from milk and potatoes. I haven't heard many benefits of taking vitamin B2 in such high dosages, while I heard a lot more things about benefits for mega dosing b1 and b3 especially.

    But maybe I'm wrong?
  78. Large doses of B2 apparently help some people reduce migraine frequency. I assume that's to do with improving energy metabolism. (Wasn't enough to sort mine out, though.) Sometimes people benefit from more of particular vits than the RDIs.
  79. Yes, resolution of migraines is one of the well known benefits of B2. However there are many other benefits as well. Just do a quick search on PubMed for "riboflavin mitochondria". Also, B1 and B2 are two most important vitamins for the liver to detoxify estrogen.
    Kasper, if you want do a search on the Peat website for "riboflavin". You will see what he has to say about it.
    Finally, the doses acquired from food don't even come close to the amount found in Energin and its increased bioavailability. So, for people that need higher doses only a supplement will do.
  80. Okay fair enough. When searching for it, I found this:

    If that is true, I still vote for a version without B2. Because if I use energin on a spot not covered by clothes, the B2 will be destroyed by light. And if I use on a spot covered by light, the B2 makes my clothes dirty. So in both cases, it is better if B2 is removed (for external use).

    You could argue that as long as you add vitamin B2 to energin, than energin is not practical for external use. For internal use, it makes sense to add vitamin B2, but in that case it may be an idea to make sure it is in a bottle that blocks light.

    Just some ideas, feel free to do whatever you want to do with it :)
  81. Noted, we will change the bottle so that it is not transparent. Thanks for your comments.
  82. Haidut,

    I have done some research lately regarding some positive/negative interactions among B vitamins ( vitamin B1 and B2 ( both in their "traditional" form) in a same liquid formulation being one of those) and minerals.
    I don't know if the links that I'm going to put below are going to help you or not in your future formulations but anyway I thought that it could be helpful for you.
    I do have other study/link that I can add if you want to see them. :D

    First link:

    Very interesting book ( go to page 62, a very good summary of B vitamins interactions, especially in liquid form but the whole book is fabulous )

    Another good summary:
    http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10 ... 2600711003

    I know that there isn't any vitamin C in Energin but, in this article too, the authors provided explanations about B1/ B2 mutual interactions in liquid formulation.
    http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10 ... 3030460216

    Both Ulrich Killeit and Peter Berry Ottaway have also made a very good work about this suject.
    And for those that will ask, yes I did read those studies, including the book from P.B. Ottaway :wink:
  83. Wilfrid could you sent me the first pdf by pm? My virus scanner keeps blocking it :| Thanks for the other two!

    This thread also make me wonder about that article last year: http://www.scienceinpublic.com.au/media-releases/tcell
    You're obviously trying to get the purest quality. Perhaps the reported allergic effects Ray talks about, could be insufficienct conversion in the production process, or decomposition and not so much adjuvants maybe?
  84. Thank you for the article. You are onto something here. I can't tolerate B2 ( pure traditional form powder, co-enzymated form in liquid and co-enzymated pure powder) in a dosage above the usually recommended RDA and, even so, I have to split the dose through the ( one pill per meal) 3 meals ( I currently take biotics research Bio-B 100). I also, to some extent, got the same problem with thiamin but only with the traditional form not with the co-enzymated one.
    EVERYTIME, I took unusual dose of B2 I got: 1- stomach burp-up and 2- diarrhea.
    Now I understand that (in my case) certains vitamins are problematic ( especially B2 like Ray pointed out) and that stomach irritation/burping = later intestinal irritation. In the book " Interoceptors", there is clear explanations about this phenomenom. Some " receptors" in the stomach lining acts as the first digestive alarm to notify the host that an ingested substance are going to be irritating, inflammatory futher down to the GI tract.
    And the link you kindly provide is very informative as to the relation between B2 and inflammatory bowel disease/intestinal irritation.
    Thanks again, suikerbuik.
  85. For those who can't open the first link, if you google " Vademecum for vitamin formulations / Volker Buhler / pdf ", the book should pop up.
  86. Thanks a lot for these! I will try to read them today and respond.
  87. Haidut, do you think there is any benefit breaking up the drops throughout the day or do you think one smash is all that's required. Also, with food or no food?
  88. Depends on tolerance I guess. I am not aware of much risk for overdose, so taking a full dose at once should be OK. If you can't tolerate it then split it up. B vitamins are usually better absorbed with food.
  89. Hello everybody,

    We will be on vacation for the next two weeks so won't be able to attend to orders placed between now and July 10. We will attend to those orders on July 11. Rather than shutting the store down like last year we decided to keep it open since the vendor we use for the online store has informed us that closing the store is only allowed if the company is shutting down. As such, we have to keep it open, but please keep in mind the 2 week delay for all orders placed between June 25 and July 10.
    Thank for your understanding and we look forward to resuming work in 2 weeks.
  90. I am back from vacation so the store is in full operation now.
  91. any Energin testimonies here?
  92. i can't find where the recommended dosage is....
  93. Look at the first post in this thread, or the paper insert if you have purchased it.
  94. the first post doesn't say and there was no insert with my purchase....
  95. 2ml serving size, you can use more or less if you want.
  96. right, but other supplements have a recommended dosage and if it should be taken multiple times a day, etc. will just PM Haidut.
  97. This is the suggested dosage - i.e. 2ml, and you should also ask your doctor. Some people take more, but that depends on the individual.
  98. I saw a pic of Energin on the new website...is it still in a clear bottle or have the bottles been switched to solid in order to enhance protection from light damage (B2 for instance)? I may order again when I run out of the current bottle and was just curious.

    My small review while I'm at it is that I definitely notice it helps with fatigue especially in the mornings before work, and I only use about 15 drops at a time (half dose). I made the mistake more than a few times of taking too much in the evening and it definitely wired me up, but just made me alert when I didn't want to be. Overall a noticeably positive experience so far.
  99. Excellent, thanks! As far as the wired up feeling I think it is the biotin causing this, but as you have noticed the best time to take pro-energetic supplements is earlier in the day to avoid overstimulation.
    This last batch of bottles was from the clear kind since the vendor made a mistake and sent us the clear ones as "acceptable substitute" for the opaque ones. The next batch will be opaque. I apologize about this, hopefully it won't happen again.
  100. Haidut, do you think this supplement used topically would be safe during pregnancy? I eat well, but I cannot get in enough B vitamins, not even the RDA amount. I am 6 months along.