Energin - Liquid B-Complex Vitamin Mix

tara

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I can't walk around all day with yellow skin. Lol. Recommendations on application?
I'm not Haidut, but ...
AIUI, Idealabs cannot recommend oral - they are sold for transdermal application, and are designed to work well that way.
Some people choose to take them orally, and the individual ingredients should be OK for this.
Maybe find an area of skin that will be covered? I've been known to put a colourful transdermal supplement on my feet when wearing socks.
 
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haidut

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Jorge, where have you been?

I know that the topical adsorption is good, but how did you arrive at such figure? I couldn't find in j.'s work.

I was travelling. Also, the forum now is quite large in terms of users and I am trying to use the little free time I have to focus more on posting new threads, so I can't really answer many questions as I used to be before.
Anyways, that 90% figure was from a study he sent me and I am pretty sure was posted here as well. I will try to find it. One caveat is that from what I remember it was done on a skin graft, so it was somewhere in between in vitro and in vivo. So, in real life YMMV but the fact that quite a few of our clients use Energin topically and like it suggests it does have pretty good absorption through skin.
 
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haidut

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Hi Georgi! I'm a new Peater here. I'm about 3 weeks in after discovering Ray Peat and you through Danny Roddy. First and foremost, thank you for all that you do!! ❤ I just ordered and recieved some of your vitamins. I purchased the Oxidal, Energin, SolBan, snd EstroBan. I'm confused about the Oxidal and Energin. Can these be taken internally? They both dye the skin. 20 drops of the Energin left my skin bright yellow!! I can't walk around all day with yellow skin. Lol. Recommendations on application? Please!

Thank you!!

We can only advertise topical use but as you can see from the threads many people report using them orally, on their own accord. That's about as much as I can legally say. Topically, there should also be good absorption and the staining (at least for Oxidal) disappears within a day or two as the MB gets reduced/absorbed. I think the same applies to Energin.
 
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haidut

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Would you consider increasing the dose of R5P to 20 mg and P5P to 10 mg?

These are the activated versions of both vitamins. Peat has said that 15mg of the regular riboflavin and 10mg of pyrodoxine Hcl are "big doses". If you get decent sunlight exposure even 20mg riboflavin (let alone R5P) can cause issues with ROS.
 

Markus

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These are the activated versions of both vitamins. Peat has said that 15mg of the regular riboflavin and 10mg of pyrodoxine Hcl are "big doses". If you get decent sunlight exposure even 20mg riboflavin (let alone R5P) can cause issues with ROS.
Ok, but Chris Masterjohn says that you need more riboflavin when exposed to sunlight?
 
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haidut

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Ok, but Chris Masterjohn says that you need more riboflavin when exposed to sunlight?

I think 15mg daily of R5P is plenty. It is roughtly equivalent to about 100mg regular riboflavin as only a fraction of the latter would convert into R5P (which is what our cells use) and that conversion declines with age. So, a person in their 60s would need roughly twice as much riboflavin as somebody in their 40s. And even for a person in heir 60s 100mg riboflavin is not a small dose.
 

Amazoniac

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- What Is the pH of Human Skin? (as you can infer, I wasn't searching, but having a conversation with Google and asking structured questions)

- Enzymes with Two Optimum pH Values

"Phosphatases, enzymes that catalyze the hydrolysis of orthophosphate monoesters, can be classified as acid, alkaline and protein phosphatases [18,19]. Acid phosphatases (E.C. 3.1.3.2) have been found largely distributed in vertebrates [20,21], plants [22,23] and microorganisms [24,25]. Some tissues contain more than one type of acid phosphatase differing in molecular mass, localization in the cells, substrate specificity and sensitivity to inhibitors [26,27]. Acid phosphatases are poorly specific enzymes, recognizing a broad kind of orthophosphate monoesters as substrates [22, 23, 28]."​

- Textbook of Biochemistry with Biomedical Significance (978-8123922454)

"A change in pH of enzyme catalyzed reaction markedly affects its velocity and a bell-shaped curve is obtained if a plot is drawn between reaction velocity and pH. Most enzymes have a characteristic optimum pH, e.g. the optimum pH for salivary amylase, pepsin, lysosomal enzymes, acid phosphatase and alkaline phosphatase are 6.8, 1-2, 5.0, 4-5 and 9-10, respectively. At optimum pH, an enzyme shows maximum catalytic activity, which decreases when the pH of reaction is below or above the optimum pH."

upload_2019-9-22_9-6-2.png

- Histochemical distribution of acid phosphatases in normal human skin

- Pyridoxine Vs. P5P

Is it possible that part of these willn't is intact?
 
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Amazoniac

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upload_2019-9-23_7-58-50.png


- Chemical stability and reaction kinetics of two thiamine salts (thiamine mononitrate and thiamine chloride hydrochloride) in solution

"To understand the impact of thiamine concentration in solution on vitamin stability, series of TMN and TClHCl solutions were prepared containing 5 thiamine concentrations: 1, 5, 10, 20, and 27 mg/mL (the latter is just under the maximum solubility of TMN)." "The pH of TClHCl solutions in this study ranged from 1.12 to 3.59, due to the range of concentrations studied (Table 2)."

"To monitor the effect of temperature on thiamine stability, solutions were stored at 5 temperatures: 25°C, 40°C, 60°C, 70°C, and 80°C. These temperatures were chosen to provide a large range of temperatures for calculating temperature-dependent reaction kinetics."


"It has been well-documented that pH affects thiamine stability; specifically, thiamine is much more stable in acidic conditions than in approximately neutral or alkaline conditions (Dwivedi & Arnold, 1973; Farrer, 1947; Gregory III, 2008; McIntire & Frost, 1944). Thus, it was not surprising to find that thiamine in TClHCl solutions was much more stable than thiamine in TMN solutions, since the TClHCl formed more acidic solutions than the TMN."

"[..]there is a dramatic decrease in stability of thiamine as pH reaches and exceeds pH 6.0 (Feliciotti & Esselen, 1957; Mulley, Stumbo, & Hunting, 1975; Williams & Ruehle, 1935). This change in stability is a result of the pKa of thiamine (4.8). As illustrated in the speciation plot of thiamine in Figure 9, the more stable protonated species of thiamine is present as a notable fraction in acidic conditions up to approximately pH 6.0. As pH increases above 6.0, the less stable unprotonated species of thiamine dominates, and the stability of thiamine dramatically decreases."

"It has also been reported that pH affects the degradation pathway of thiamine (Dwivedi & Arnold, 1972). Thiamine has a pKa of 4.8 (for the pyrimidine N1 nitrogen) (Edwards et al., 2017). In acidic conditions (pH < 6), degradation occurs by cleavage of the methylene bridge to release intact pyrimidine and thiazole moieties; while in conditions above pH 6, degradation involves the same cleavage, but also further fragmentation of the thiazole ring (Gregory III, 2008). These varying pathways support the observation of different degradation products formed in the close to neutral pH TMN solutions and the acidic TClHCl solutions, as noted in the HPLC chromatograms (Figure S1)."​

Is was a preliminary publication with missing information. Good rhyme. Thiamine HCl was so stable in water solution that they disconsidered the degradation at lower temperatures, but I guess this is for its behavior in (A) 25 and (B) 40 gradus Celsius:

upload_2019-9-23_7-59-29.png


It seems that the lighter color is for thiamine HCl, and..
● 1 mg/ml
○ 5 mg/ml
■ 10 mg/ml
□ 20 mg/ml
▲ 27 mg/ml
upload_2019-9-23_8-10-9.png
Energan

△ 100 mg/ml
◆ 300 mg/ml
◇ 500 mg/ml

"Degradation of thiamine in solution was dependent on the form of thiamine salt dissolved, the resulting solution pH, and the storage temperature. All thiamine degradation was found to follow first order reaction kinetics until degradation products were present in high concentrations (< 40% vitamin remaining), which were thought to alter the degradation pathway. Thiamine in TClHCl solutions was found to be much more stable in all conditions than thiamine in TMN solutions, which was attributed to the low pH of TClHCl solutions. Although acidic conditions delayed the degradation of thiamine in solution, the low pH also altered the degradation pathway and produced different degradation products than were found in close to neutral pH conditions. This was demonstrated by differing peak positions in HPLC chromatograms between solutions of TMN and TClHCl. Thiamine degradation products in TClHCl solutions also contributed a potent odor and intense color change even before degradation became significant (p < 0.05). However, even with very large amounts of thiamine degradation in TMN solutions, sensory impacts were minimal."

"Although the concentrations of thiamine investigated in this study were higher than concentrations found in most food products, the implications for trends in thiamine stability at different pHs and temperatures are relevant for foods naturally containing or fortified with thiamine. Many food products act as acidic environments that will protect thiamine stability, including fruit products and energy drinks. In these acidic conditions, no significant thiamine degradation was found at ambient temperature over the 6 month period of this study. However, there are also many food sources of thiamine that are close to neutral pH or slightly alkaline, including milk, teas, beans, eggs, peas, and peanuts. The higher pHs in these foods may contribute to degradation of thiamine during storage. For example, in close to neutral pH or slightly alkaline samples at ambient temperatures, the t90 [time for 10% to be degraded] was 130-310 days, depending on pH, compared to t90 values that could not be calculated in acidic conditions due to lack of significant degradation. While some products (e.g., fruits, yeast, meats, eggs, and legumes) naturally to neutral pH or slightly alkaline pH include various dairy products, powdered or liquid infant formulas, dietary supplements, and enriched flour (Bettendorff, 2012). Enriched flours are commonly combined with leavening agents in baked goods formulations, and these leavening agents produce slightly alkaline conditions (Cauvain & Young, 2006) which, as shown in this study, provide an unstable environment for thiamine. Further heating these products, such as during baking, could contribute to more thiamine degradation. Additionally, common food products or dietary supplements with limited water but high thiamine content include nutritional yeast, dried milk, infant formula, dried seaweed, and vitamin B complex supplements (U.S. Department of Agriculture Agricultural Research Service, 2018). Since thiamine has the potential to begin to dissolve in small amounts of water and is known to degrade faster in solution than in the solid state (Hiatt et al., 2008), the thiamine found in these products may act more like the thiamine in this study at high concentrations in the water present."

"Although thiamine is often found in the presence of excipients in supplements or other ingredients in food products that can improve (or worsen) chemical stability (Kandutsch & Baumann, 1953), the degradation kinetics found in this study for pure thiamine in solution provide valuable information on the fundamental behavior of thiamine. Analyzing thiamine stability in buffered solutions to control for pH or in the presence of co-formulated ingredients would extend the implications of this study to more representative food systems and provide useful information on additional factors that contribute to the stability and/or degradation of thiamine."​

In the document they discuss degradation products, appearance (with image) and odor (without smell, not there yet) depending on the salt and condition. You would need to ask them for tables and supplementary material.
 
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Dave Clark

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I am considering using Energin, but wondering if anyone can tell me, maybe Haidut, if I am using pyridoxamine, does that factor into a total of how much B6 I am using, or is it a completely different compound that does not have to be considered when accessing the amount of B6 one is taking?
 

Amazoniac

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- Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults (from einother thread)

"As with most hydrophilic micronutrients, thiamine absorption occurs mainly in the jejunum (33). Throughout the digestive tract, dietary proteins get hydrolyzed, releasing thiamine. In the intestinal lumen, alkaline phosphatases catalyze the hydrolysis of thiamine-phosphorylated derivatives into free thiamine (34). Unphosphorylated, free thiamine at concentrations higher than 1 µM enters the enterocyte by passive diffusion, whereas at lower levels, it is transported via the saturable thiamine/H+ antiport system (thiamine transporter 1 or THTR1) through an energy-dependent process (33). Under conditions of thiamine deficiency, an upregulation of the expression of the thiamine transporter 2 (THTR2) was observed in Caco2 cells in culture, suggesting that diet can modulate the expression of this transporter (35)."​

- Topical Administration Of Benfotiamine

"Benfotiamine is a phosphorylated species and as such does not readily pass through lipophilic membranes; however, exposure to ecto-phosphatases on different tissues, including the skin and the muscle, dephosphorylated the benfotiamine to S-benzoylthiamine, a species rapidly transported through cell membranes and then once inside the cell is converted to free thiamine through cellular nonspecific esterases [36]."​

Jorge, will is phosphorylated riboflavin and pyridoxine skin intact? If this is not the case, the only thing that could change is upping both slightly to hit the targets that you had when formulating.
 

Momentum

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@haidut Getting ready to place an order, but I usually get migraines from B vitamins (or any supps) containing yeast. From what I understand, B's are often grown or maybe synthesized from yeast. ? Anyway, from reading your posts it seems your formulas are pure enough that they shouldn't contain any yeast, but just wanting to check before ordering. Thank you
 

scoobydoo

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Took full serving orally and got super depressed and moody for the whole day..
never has happened to me before from a supplement
Thoughts anyone?
 

Rickyman

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whoops I just used this sublingually 2 drops anyone else done this? I figured topically it would just leave a mess on my arm.
 

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