Energin - Liquid B-Complex Vitamin Mix

[ChineseinSweden]

@haidut (and everyone else),

I started with Energin about two weeks ago. The first day I took 12-13 drops (7-8 orally, 5 topically), after that 10 drops orally and 5 topically daily. Typically before lunch or mid day, always together with juice and a meal as I read in this thread it lowers blood sugar. I even started eating a bit more food (and sugar) than usual since I have for the past year had some problems that I believe are related to low blood sugar/hypoglycemia.

However, within a week my hypoglycemia suddenly became much worse, both more frequently and more severe – to the extent that I could hardly sleep at night. Symptoms include shivering, shaking, hunger, cold hands+feet, dizziness, really tense muscles, anxiety. First I thought this was purely panic attacks (I have a history of anxiety disorder), until I realized shoveling down super sugary food would fairly quickly bring relief.

But food high in sugar only helped temporarily. I had to increase my food intake and frequency so much that it was unsustainable (I’ve always eaten a lot, I’m not a diabetic, I’m not dieting). When it was worst it was quite ridiculous, I had to eat sugary food every 2 hours, even during the night in order to handle these low blood sugar attacks. I could even get an attack in the middle of a meal, I would then have to pause the meal and eat something sugary, then after the attack resume my meal.

I suspected Energin has contributed to my blood sugar crashes, even though I had been eating more. But I realized some other supplements I have been taking (and lately increased my dosage of) might also be contributing. One is Thorne Stress-B-Complex which I take one pill every second day, and Niacinamide 250mg 2-3 capsules per day, both with meals (split into two to three doses). I have also been taking L-lysine for several weeks, 2-3gr per day (split into three doses).

I quit taking both Energin and the other B supplements 4 days ago. Things eventually became somewhat better, but I still need to eat sugary foods (like dates) far too much and too often (compared to before) in order not to get these low blood sugar crashes.

Do you think these problems could be due to Energin? Or was Niacinamide a bigger factor?

I have also started taking Oxidal, could that affect things? (have only used it topically, 1-3 drops per day)


Thank you for any help

@Amazoniac and @haidut, thank you both for your replies, and I'm terribly sorry for my late response. I really wanted to reply earlier with some follow up questions but have not been able to due to my health struggle, low energy, brain fog and anxiety. Now two months later I still have blood sugar crashes during the day, but not during the night, even though I keep eating a lot and very often.
I have re-introduced Energin with a dosage of 4-5 drops per day. I have not dared to add back niacinamide.
Current symptoms include extreme muscle weakness and muscle ache, and lately heart palpitation (resting pulse often from 90 to 120).

You're taking a lot of some of these vitamins, it isn't uncommon for this to become counterproductive. You might be creating a problem that wasn't there.

Does you gets enough protein (with glycine), choline, betaine, creatine, magnesium, and perhaps inositol? It's possible that you have depleted yourself of methyl donors.

My understanding/knowledge of biochemistry, physiology and interactions between different vitamins/minerals is very limited. At the time of my original question I didn't have any idea that it could be related to the balance between different B vitamins. I previously forgot to mention that I used to consume large amounts of vit B5 (against acne), which I am on my way of cutting out.
I was under the impression that methyl donors were bad for you. Now that I have done some more research I realize the way I have supplemented these B vitamins (especially niacinamide?) may have depleted my methyl donors which is not good either. Is there some way I can know for sure that I have actually depleted them? what are the symptoms? Do you think the low blood sugar crashes I experienced were mostly due to methyl donor depletion?
I don't know if I get enough protein/choline/betaine/creatine/magnesium/inositol since it is currently far too exhausting for me to measure and log every meal.
I try to have some animal protein with the three main meals(mostly eggs, fish, chicken, ground beef and shrimp). I sprinkle a little bit of gelatin powder here and there throughout the day (no idea how much in total). I probably average 1-2 eggs per day (does this provide enough choline?), take about 1500 mg Betaine Hcl per day(digestion aid) and supplement around 400-500 mg magnesium daily.

If so, some extra folate might be beneficial as well.

Which dosage would you recommend? Are you talking about supplemental folate in the form of methyl folate? How long time does it typically take to restore this balance? I recently also realized I haven't been including liver or much fresh greens in my diet during the past year or so. No legumes, either. According to Chris Masterjohn's video on folate, I might have been deficient in folate already before starting Energin. Do you think a blood test of plasma folate level would be useful?

I would really appreciate more insight in helping me resolve some of these symptoms I suffer.

Thanks a lot!

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac and @haidut, thank you both for your replies, and I'm terribly sorry for my late response. I really wanted to reply earlier with some follow up questions but have not been able to due to my health struggle, low energy, brain fog and anxiety. Now two months later I still have blood sugar crashes during the day, but not during the night, even though I keep eating a lot and very often.
I have re-introduced Energin with a dosage of 4-5 drops per day. I have not dared to add back niacinamide.
Current symptoms include extreme muscle weakness and muscle ache, and lately heart palpitation (resting pulse often from 90 to 120).




My understanding/knowledge of biochemistry, physiology and interactions between different vitamins/minerals is very limited. At the time of my original question I didn't have any idea that it could be related to the balance between different B vitamins. I previously forgot to mention that I used to consume large amounts of vit B5 (against acne), which I am on my way of cutting out.
I was under the impression that methyl donors were bad for you. Now that I have done some more research I realize the way I have supplemented these B vitamins (especially niacinamide?) may have depleted my methyl donors which is not good either. Is there some way I can know for sure that I have actually depleted them? what are the symptoms? Do you think the low blood sugar crashes I experienced were mostly due to methyl donor depletion?
I don't know if I get enough protein/choline/betaine/creatine/magnesium/inositol since it is currently far too exhausting for me to measure and log every meal.
I try to have some animal protein with the three main meals(mostly eggs, fish, chicken, ground beef and shrimp). I sprinkle a little bit of gelatin powder here and there throughout the day (no idea how much in total). I probably average 1-2 eggs per day (does this provide enough choline?), take about 1500 mg Betaine Hcl per day(digestion aid) and supplement around 400-500 mg magnesium daily.


Which dosage would you recommend? Are you talking about supplemental folate in the form of methyl folate? How long time does it typically take to restore this balance? I recently also realized I haven't been including liver or much fresh greens in my diet during the past year or so. No legumes, either. According to Chris Masterjohn's video on folate, I might have been deficient in folate already before starting Energin. Do you think a blood test of plasma folate level would be useful?

I would really appreciate more insight in helping me resolve some of these symptoms I suffer.

Thanks a lot!

From what you mentioned it seems to be something else, perhaps made worse with the imbalanced supplementation. I would consider everything mentioned on the following thread (especially vit C and D):

Chest Pain/Discomfort At Night​

Have you searched on the lines for 'under/overmethylation symptoms'? There are various discussions on it. Chris also commented about the effects:

The Consequences Of Cheese As A Main Source Of Protein​

Another one to consider is potassium chloride instead of HCl. Potassium is involved in glucose metabolism and many people don't get enough. Given the heart issue, it's better to improve it first or start with modest doses and increase as you can handle.

 

[fredbastiat]

Forgive me if this has been asked previously, but the site image lists the older bottle with 40 drops and B7 (no B5). I'm curious why the switch from B7 to B5?

 

[haidut]

Forgive me if this has been asked previously, but the site image lists the older bottle with 40 drops and B7 (no B5). I'm curious why the switch from B7 to B5?

It is not a switch - the B7 is still there and we just added B5. We also managed to dissolve the same amount of vitamins in a smaller bottles so the shipping cost are lower (at least for international packages).

 

[haidut]

@haidut
When did Energin go from $19.99 to $24.99? Just curious. I last ordered it in Oct 2017 when it was $19.99, and am planning to order again. I see you made it more concentrated and added B5 since then.

We changed it in November. The addition of B5 was one reason and the other was that we have not changed prices for almost 5 years while our costs keep rising. Also, believe it or not, the 1oz bottle is more expensive than the 2oz ones and most vendors are sold out. So, I guess due to higher demand the few vendors that cell those feel then can charge more for 1oz bottles.

 

[haidut]

@haidut, great job overall with Energin, especially with addition of b5.
Question: why is it packaged in a transparent bottle, considering it contains light-sensitive Riboflavin?

It was a small number of bottles since the 1oz opaque ones are very hard to source. So, if we run our of them we use the transparent ones as a back up option. They still block UV light, so they are not entirely useless

 

[ddjd]

I recently bought this liquid b1 , in activated form ,
(Thiamine Pyrophosphate

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Pyrophosphate) 100ml

It's almost completely tasteless, unlike regular b1

how did you find this form of b1? effective?

 

[ddjd]

Thiamine Pyrophosphate

how did you find this form of b1? effective?

 

[ddjd]

Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

I got some jittery feelings as well as some loose stools when I took it.
Those symptoms usually begins at a dosage as low as 10 mg ( I used the purebulk thiamine HCL powder.).
Last year, a pharmacist's friend managed to get me some pure thiamine pyrophosphate powder from Sigma Aaldricht and I didn't get any bad effect at all, even at dosage up to 50mg.
However, I'm running out of it and now I'm taking a product called Bio-B 100 from Biotics research, which is a very low dose coenzymated B supp that I can tolerate very well without any side effects and I combined it with liquid version of liquid coenzymated B1 (from Metabolics a UK vitamin supplier) and liquid coenzymated B6 from Epigenetics (also a UK company).
So far so good but the Thiamine HCL through oral route is a no-no for me.
Ray suggest me to dissolve the thiamine HCL in vodka and to use it on skin but I don't make this experience so far.
May be in the future...

where are you based Wilfrid? im in UK. it would be great to find a reliable source of thiamine pyrophosphate powder

 

[johnwester130]

how did you find this form of b1? effective?

after a while i noticed no effect

 

[Agnichaga]

When using the energin my stool becomes a yellow ochre color. I've never noticed that using any other B supplements. Is that a normal thing or a sign of malabsorption?

 

[haidut]

When using the energin my stool becomes a yellow ochre color. I've never noticed that using any other B supplements. Is that a normal thing or a sign of malabsorption?

Could be a sign of poor absorption of B2. I would ask a doctor about it.

 

[Texon]

@Amazoniac and @haidut, thank you both for your replies, and I'm terribly sorry for my late response. I really wanted to reply earlier with some follow up questions but have not been able to due to my health struggle, low energy, brain fog and anxiety. Now two months later I still have blood sugar crashes during the day, but not during the night, even though I keep eating a lot and very often.
I have re-introduced Energin with a dosage of 4-5 drops per day. I have not dared to add back niacinamide.
Current symptoms include extreme muscle weakness and muscle ache, and lately heart palpitation (resting pulse often from 90 to 120).




My understanding/knowledge of biochemistry, physiology and interactions between different vitamins/minerals is very limited. At the time of my original question I didn't have any idea that it could be related to the balance between different B vitamins. I previously forgot to mention that I used to consume large amounts of vit B5 (against acne), which I am on my way of cutting out.
I was under the impression that methyl donors were bad for you. Now that I have done some more research I realize the way I have supplemented these B vitamins (especially niacinamide?) may have depleted my methyl donors which is not good either. Is there some way I can know for sure that I have actually depleted them? what are the symptoms? Do you think the low blood sugar crashes I experienced were mostly due to methyl donor depletion?
I don't know if I get enough protein/choline/betaine/creatine/magnesium/inositol since it is currently far too exhausting for me to measure and log every meal.
I try to have some animal protein with the three main meals(mostly eggs, fish, chicken, ground beef and shrimp). I sprinkle a little bit of gelatin powder here and there throughout the day (no idea how much in total). I probably average 1-2 eggs per day (does this provide enough choline?), take about 1500 mg Betaine Hcl per day(digestion aid) and supplement around 400-500 mg magnesium daily.


Which dosage would you recommend? Are you talking about supplemental folate in the form of methyl folate? How long time does it typically take to restore this balance? I recently also realized I haven't been including liver or much fresh greens in my diet during the past year or so. No legumes, either. According to Chris Masterjohn's video on folate, I might have been deficient in folate already before starting Energin. Do you think a blood test of plasma folate level would be useful?

I would really appreciate more insight in helping me resolve some of these symptoms I suffer.

Thanks a lot!

@Amazoniac @haidut I think B12 deficiency is very underestimated. Check out this link and see what you think.
B12 Deficiency Support Group | Vitamin B12 Deficiency Overview - B12 deficiency affects the hormones
I also can't tolerate methyl folate, and I have experienced the downsides of impaired methylation caused by taking too much niacinamide.

 

[Braveheart]

@Amazoniac @haidut I think B12 deficiency is very underestimated. Check out this link and see what you think.
B12 Deficiency Support Group | Vitamin B12 Deficiency Overview - B12 deficiency affects the hormones
I also can't tolerate methyl folate, and I have experienced the downsides of impaired methylation caused by taking too much niacinamide.

Do you track your foods? What do you consider a deficiency?
Here is what I get without really trying...my average for a week...
Vitamin B12... 35.2 mcg...RDA 2.4 mcg...percent of RDA 1,466

 

[ifg7]

Hi @haidut, this week I received my bottle of Energin. However at the label the dosing is 40 drops (2ml), and here I've read that the amount got reduced to 20 drops. How is it finally? I am just not sure how to dose it.. Thanks!

 

[haidut]

Hi @haidut, this week I received my bottle of Energin. However at the label the dosing is 40 drops (2ml), and here I've read that the amount got reduced to 20 drops. How is it finally? I am just not sure how to dose it.. Thanks!

Sorry about the confusion. The label on your bottle is old. The current dosing is 20 drops.

 

[Amazoniac]

@Jorge and @Pedro,

@Mito has been commenting in his videos that B-vitamins tend to be for the most part dephosphorylitizated during digestion (unless there is an enzymatic problem involv'd). After reading more about, this appears to be true; just search for 'helicopter absorption dephosphorylated free' where 'helicopter' is replaced for 'elephant' or 'astronaut' and you'll confirm this.

If someone decides to ingest the phosphorylated forms of B-vitamins in lower doses in relation to the others as an attempt to make up for the increased potency, they might be getting them in weird proportions without realizing.

If all this proceeds, your products are more suited for topical use.
Can these be broken-down in the skin as they're adsorbed as well?

 

[inthedark]

I've been using Energin off and on for a couple years, mostly I've tried it orally since I didn't want to deal with the orange staining. Recently I started using it topically (as recommenced) and it seems like nearly an entirely different substance. Noticeable anti stress effects (deeper more restful sleep, curbs anxiety) very quickly at a dose of only 5 drops (and this is the previous formulation not the new stronger one). I get the vivid dreams associated with B6 consumption as well, even though the amount of B6 is less than 1mg in this dose. I've taken the full dose internally, and other B spectrum supplements and haven't experienced even close to these effects. It seems like I am absorbing and actual utilizing far more of this, even though the dose is far less. Very impressed. I also noticed some reports of people having adverse effects at the full dose, and I'd definitely recommend starting at way less than that.

 

[Braveheart]

I've been using Energin off and on for a couple years, mostly I've tried it orally since I didn't want to deal with the orange staining. Recently I started using it topically (as recommenced) and it seems like nearly an entirely different substance. Noticeable anti stress effects (deeper more restful sleep, curbs anxiety) very quickly at a dose of only 5 drops (and this is the previous formulation not the new stronger one). I get the vivid dreams associated with B6 consumption as well, even though the amount of B6 is less than 1mg in this dose. I've taken the full dose internally, and other B spectrum supplements and haven't experienced even close to these effects. It seems like I am absorbing and actual utilizing far more of this, even though the dose is far less. Very impressed. I also noticed some reports of people having adverse effects at the full dose, and I'd definitely recommend starting at way less than that.

I like this Rick...where did you apply this?

 

[inthedark]

I like this Rick...where did you apply this?

On my chest, upper stomach area when I'm in bed