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Energin - Liquid B-Complex Vitamin Mix

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, May 14, 2014.

  1. Vinero

    Vinero Member

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    I put 40 drops in a glass of water and drink it. You can also put it on the skin if you want. I don't put mine in the refrigerator.
     
  2. bzmazu

    bzmazu Member

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    I do 20 drops...10 oral in oj and 10 topical
     
  3. Texon

    Texon Member

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  4. Antonello

    Antonello Member

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    @haidut Hi Georgi do you think is possible to delivery b vitamins with mitolipin as a carrier?
    I was thinking to mix B1 and because allithiamine is able to penetrate like no others the ability of Mitolipin came to my mind but I need your thoughs before start experimenting.
    thanks in advance
     
  5. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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  6. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    What would be the benefit? Allithiamine already has 100% bioavailability so not much will be gained by adding to MitoLipin. Also, even though allithiamine is marketed as lipid soluble B1, that is not accurate. It is still water soluble but with better ability to absorb from the small intestine and cross the blood brain barrier. So, it probably won't dissolve much in oil-based products like MitoLipin.
     
  7. jaakkima

    jaakkima Member

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    I wonder how much of a concern putting it on the skin in the day/sunlight should be, in terms of light possibly degrading it. I also wonder that about some other Idealabs things like Retinil.
     
  8. jaakkima

    jaakkima Member

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    What did he say about it?

    I think Energin is correcting a deficiency or deficiencies for me (due to bowel disease). I'm curious if either B5 or B9 is an issue for me too. Interestingly I didn't get an effect when I tried all the individual B vitamins in Energin orally in the past, though there could have been other things interfering that I'm closer to resolving now. Too many factors to disentangle, maybe retry...
     
  9. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I think user @Amazoniac posted a youtube clip recently on Peat talking about B5. Maybe he can provide the link.
     
  10. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    I think Retinil absorbs rather quickly when put on the skin so sunlight should not be an issue. Have not heard any complaints so far about Energin causing issues when skin is exposed to sunlight.
     
  11. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    Cool. Next step is B12. What can I post to convince you that it is a good idea to include it?
    My prediction is that within 600 days you'll have a whole B-complex.
     
  12. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Thanks.
    I am hesitant on the B12. You know of Peat's views on it being elevated in SIBO (which most people nowadays have) as well as its role in some cancers, right? Folic acid and B12 will take a lot of convincing. Have you asked Peat about them?
     
  13. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    - Uninvited Guests: The Impact of Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth on Nutritional Status

    "Vitamin B12 deficiency occurs in S and I and B and O as a result of utilization of the vitamin by bactaeria. When bactaeria take up the vitamin, it is partially metabolized to inactive analogues, which compete with normal vitamin B12 binding and absorption (31,32)."​

    - Diabetes II And How To Restore And Protect Nerves, KMUD, 2014 "B12"

    The thread was updated while you were trying to resurge from the pile of messages:
    - B12 Deficiency And Hypothyroidism

    People from those cancer studies were using a lot and quite often; some were also supplementing other nutrients that were lumped together; others simply noted increased B12 consumption with greater incidence of cancer, but this can be due to increased meat consumption; it's also possible that many of them were supplementing B12 with folic acid or pyridoxine while missing the other vitamins.

    The idea of including it is to cover basic needs, a tiny amount should suffice and must be safe, otherwise foods with greater amounts such as liver and shellfish must be considered dangerous. Many forum members consume plenty of casein as the main source of proteid and there's a daily debt that those foods (if eaten sparingly) can't make up for.
     
  14. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    OK, thanks. I would still like to hear Peat's opinion on it. So, if you hear of somebody asking him please post the response here. He did say B12 is elevated in intestinal bacterial overgrowth in several of his interviews, but maybe he changed his mind.
     
  15. Mito

    Mito Member

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    If you do add B12 to Energin it should probably be in very small amounts (1.5 – 1.6 μg) because there is a potential to influence gut bacteria. There seems to be some evidence that excess B12 that doesn’t get absorbed in the stomach feeds gut bacteria. Vitamin B-12 and Your Gut
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, I will probably keep it under 2,000mcg and will try to get the hydroxocobalamin version that has been shown to potently lower NO.
     
  17. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    Curious about this quote. I think energin has enough b-vitamins. I would be a customer against adding b12, since last time I was tested mine was on the high side - despite never having supplemented it.
     
  18. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Noted, thanks.
     
  19. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    This risk is common to most of them, perhaps with the exception of niacin (fast and nearly complete absorption) and riboflavin. Normal absorpta of B12 ends further down the small intestine anyway.
    !!
    I had in mind 15 mcg or so per serving, really just to cover basic needs in a way that doesn't increase chances of adversities.

    For people that are having trouble digesting proteins, it can be useful as well since providing it isolated skips a first step in separation.

    From what I read, and agreeing with you, hydroxocobalamin seems the safest, followed by adenosyl and then methyl.

    As commented with a pimp on a private message, if people are able to absorb it under the tongue, it must also work topically in case people opt for such route:
    US20080160070A1 - Transdermal vitamin b12 delivery patch - Google Patents
    US9700522B2 - Transdermal patch and method for delivery of vitamin B12 - Google Patents
    Don't mind him, he's actually getting paid by the homocysteine and anticancer industry to say that.
    What did you test?
     
  20. Amazoniac

    Amazoniac Member

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    @Mito
    Example:

    Intestinal Dysbiosa and Biotin Deprivata Induce Alopecia through Overgrowth of Lactobacillus murinus in Mice

    "The gut microbiota impacts on the pathophysiology of extra-intestinal tissues, including the skin. Here, we demonstrated that gut dysbiosis, induced by treatment with certain antibiotics, impaired biotin biosynthesis by the gut microbiota. Although reduced biotin synthesis by the gut microbiota was not immediately pathogenic if biotin was supplemented from dietary sources, lack of dietary biotin in antibiotic-treated, dysbiotic mice led to systemic biotin deficiency, resulting in the development of alopecia.

    Gut microbiota synthesizes and supplies many essential B-group vitamins, including biotin (Hill, 1997, Singh et al., 2014). Bacteroides spp. overexpress the genes encoding four enzymes in the biotin-biosynthesis pathway (COG0132, COG0156, COG0161, and COG0502) (Arumugam et al., 2011, Sugahara et al., 2015), while other commensal bacteria, such as the Lactobacillus species, lack these biotin-synthesis genes and therefore fail to generate biotin. Notably, despite the inability to synthesize biotin, these bacteria can consume biotin supplied from the diet and/or from other bacteria such as Bacteroides. The balance between biotin-producing and -consuming bacteria thus controls the amount of luminal biotin available to the host. In the current study, we identified L. murinus in mice with biotin deficiency-induced alopecia as an “obligate biotin reducer”. Although L. murinus lacks biotin-synthesis genes and therefore fails to generate biotin, it may nevertheless utilize biotin for its own growth. Indeed, the strain of L. murinus that we have isolated from alopecia mice can consume biotin for its growth in vitro, although in vitro reduction of biotin might not resemble the ecology of this bacterium in vivo. Mice deprived of external sources of biotin exhibit substantial amounts of fecal biotin because these mice can still utilize biotinylated proteins as a reservoir for biotin and secrete biotin into the gut and urine. Domination of L. murinus as a result of vancomycin treatment thus reduced the availability of luminal biotin, which in turn perturbed the biotin-recycling system in the gut and affected its systemic availability, with consequent impacts on skin physiology. Vancomycin-treated mice, which did not develop alopecia, exhibit a slight decrease of biotin in feces, but maintain a serum biotin level. These data indicate that the serum biotin level reflects alopecia symptoms. Importantly, supplementation of biotin via a systemic route bypassed the dysbiosis-induced decreased bioavailability of biotin in the gut and restored hair growth."​

    I'm actually getting paid to post this. Topical industry.
     
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