Energin - Liquid B-Complex Vitamin Mix

[haidut]

Awesome; thanks for the studies. I searched for thiamine HCl specifically, so I hope pyrophosphate applies well-enough.

Do you think an avoidance of the first-pass metabolism through topical absorption would still benefit the liver, similar to how you've said oral K2 is probably more effective at lowering liver inflammation, or do you think oral is the way to go?

Some of the studies I sent you are with thiamine Hcl. It seems less effective than TPP but still helps a lot. A dose 2-3 higher than the TPP dose used in the studies should give the same effects as TPP.
If you are targeting the liver then oral is the way to go. If you want systemic upregulation of PDH then topical is probably better. Or you can use both methods for optimal results.

 

[DaveFoster]

Some of the studies I sent you are with thiamine Hcl. It seems less effective than TPP but still helps a lot. A dose 2-3 higher than the TPP dose used in the studies should give the same effects as TPP.
If you are targeting the liver then oral is the way to go. If you want systemic upregulation of PDH then topical is probably better. Or you can use both methods for optimal results.

Great info, thanks! Their reference to "thiamine" implies thiamine HCl then.

For the reversal of ethanol toxicity, the human dosage would equate around 2.4 grams daily for a 60 kg person as thiamine HCl.

 

[haidut]

Great info, thanks! Their reference to "thiamine" implies thiamine HCl then.

For the reversal of ethanol toxicity, the human dosage would equate around 2.4 grams daily for a 60 kg person as thiamine HCl.

Yep, and the study on curing cirrhosis with thiamine and androgens used a few hundred milligrams as injection daily, which would be about equal to that oral dose. However, when the high oral dose is taken for more than a week it achieves concentrations as high as the same dose taken by injection. So, if a person plans to take thiamine long term, an oral dose of 300mg orally should be quite powerful after a week or two.

 

[DaveFoster]

Yep, and the study on curing cirrhosis with thiamine and androgens used a few hundred milligrams as injection daily, which would be about equal to that oral dose. However, when the high oral dose is taken for more than a week it achieves concentrations as high as the same dose taken by injection. So, if a person plans to take thiamine long term, an oral dose of 300mg orally should be quite powerful after a week or two.

That's interesting; do you know of any way to mitigate the GI upset that many people get with high dose oral thiamine hcl without detracting from absorption, maybe mixing with juice?

 

[haidut]

That's interesting; do you know of any way to mitigate the GI upset that many people get with high dose oral thiamine hcl without detracting from absorption, maybe mixing with juice?

Mixing with aspirin or glycine seems to reduce the stomach upset. Topical obviously avoids all of these issues but if you target the liver oral is still best.

 

[DaveFoster]

Mixing with aspirin or glycine seems to reduce the stomach upset. Topical obviously avoids all of these issues but if you target the liver oral is still best.

Awesome, after trying 1,000 mg thiamine (along with the 500 mg from a partial Energin dose, potentiated with ethanol) I have some positive benefits, and some negatives.

1) Thiamine tastes abhorrent. As foul as niacinamide and magnesium glycinate.
2) My ability to focus and read increased moderately.
3) Slightly light-headed (barely noticeable, but a kind of opening of the ears.) Not really comfortable or uncomfortable, just there.
4) Relaxation and anxiety went down a bit, and hunger went up a bit.

I think it's a valuable tool for doing extensive close work.

 

[SolidSteele]

Would adding 40 drops of energin or so to mag chloride hot/warm bath/foot soak water allow it absorb into the skin quick enough? I usually soak for about 30 min. Kill two birds one stone.

Thiamine is cleaved in chlorinated water so soaking in warm water may degrade the B1.
Cleavage of thiamine by chlorine in tap water. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[johnwester130]

Awesome, after trying 1,000 mg thiamine (along with the 500 mg from a partial Energin dose, potentiated with ethanol) I have some positive benefits, and some negatives.

1) Thiamine tastes abhorrent. As foul as niacinamide and magnesium glycinate.
2) My ability to focus and read increased moderately.
3) Slightly light-headed (barely noticeable, but a kind of opening of the ears.) Not really comfortable or uncomfortable, just there.
4) Relaxation and anxiety went down a bit, and hunger went up a bit.

I think it's a valuable tool for doing extensive close work.

strange story

When I first ordered Energin, it tasted so bad I couldn't take it, so took capsules instead.

A year later, I re-ordered energin, and it tastes fine to me. As though my taste buds have adjusted to it. It's very strange, but I honestly don't mind the taste anymore.

If you cannot do this, maybe do it topically.

 

[DaveFoster]

strange story

When I first ordered Energin, it tasted so bad I couldn't take it, so took capsules instead.

A year later, I re-ordered energin, and it tastes fine to me. As though my taste buds have adjusted to it. It's very strange, but I honestly don't mind the taste anymore.

If you cannot do this, maybe do it topically.

So it seems mixing glycine with water/juice and taking that with the capuslated B1 also protects the GI tract; the vitamin doesn't need to be immersed in the liquid.

 

[mirc12354]

This product is much stronger than I expected. Even if I took much higher doses od vitamins in it 40 drops Energin feels much strogner. Is it really just ethanol potentiating the vitamins or are there amphetamins in this product?

 

[haidut]

This product is much stronger than I expected. Even if I took much higher doses od vitamins in it 40 drops Energin feels much strogner. Is it really just ethanol potentiating the vitamins or are there amphetamins in this product?

There are no amphetamines, I assure you Otherwise the FDA would be knocking on my door by know. It has a few of the activated B vitamins and that contributes to increased potency. B2 and B6 are in activated form. The ratios also matter. Finally, I am considering starting to use activated thiamine (TPP) instead of the Hcl satl. Have to do some tests first and see if TPP is as stable in solution as the Hcl salt.

 

[johnwester130]

it looks good

Amazon.com: Source Naturals Coenzymated B-1, 25mg, 60 Tablets: Health & Personal Care

Significant Improvement Story -- Focus on Thiamine Deficiency

Thiamine Pyrophosphate (TPP) Stopped My Tinnitus!

 

[haidut]

deleted

Virtually impossible to be deficient in it. I also asked Peat long time ago about it and he responded with "no interest". The B5 is also noticeably absent from his articles and interviews. He mentioned it a few times in his books but I don't know that he has said much about it in the last 20 years. Maybe I am wrong, if you have a source where he talks about it please share.

 

[acrylic]

Has anyone noticed teeth staining from energin?

 

[johnwester130]

This is a good link

The Many Forms of Vitamin B Complex | BioFoundations

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/scientific_output/files/main_documents/864.pdf

 

[johnwester130]

The effect of thiamine pyrophosphate on ethambutol-induced ocular toxicity. - PubMed - NCBI

These findings suggest that thiamine pyrophosphate protects retinal tissues from ethambutol-induced oxidative damage,
and thiamine does not.

 

[Wagner83]

Are the drops suggested in the OP obtained from shaking the bottle or from pressing it? They seem to be very different in size. I think someone mentioned good effects from pressing the bottle but also less servings, so that points towards the first solution (hard to count the drops though).
Any plans on using a light-proof bottle?

 

[haidut]

Are the drops suggested in the OP obtained from shaking the bottle or from pressing it? They seem to be very different in size. I think someone mentioned good effects from pressing the bottle but also less servings, so that points towards the first solution (hard to count the drops though).
Any plans on using a light-proof bottle?

We have a new set of bottles that are less transparent and also have smaller dropper so the drops should be easier to measure. We will make a new batch using these bottles next week and we will see how people like them. If they do then we can keep those bottles as default.

 

[Wagner83]

So far I have taken energin orally, one serving per day in the morning. I've also upped my coffee intake. I have a lot more dreams at night but don't get any energy increase (more like the opposite, I'm chilled by coffee). Has anyone noticed similar increase in dreams quantity or intensity?

 

[Wagner83]

A few people have reported good effects from topical energin, is one vitamin in particular responsible for the orange colour?