Energin - Liquid B-Complex Vitamin Mix

[haidut]

A few people have reported good effects from topical energin, is one vitamin in particular responsible for the orange colour?

Yes, mostly riboflavin (vitamin B2) but B6 is also yellow-ish

 

[Wagner83]

Did you ever try a topical energin without the annoying colourful vitamins (which means we actually use it topically without issues) and did you consider selling it?

 

[haidut]

Did you ever try a topical energin without the annoying colourful vitamins (which means we actually use it topically without issues) and did you consider selling it?

What do you mean without the annoying colorful vitamins? I am not aware of riboflavin or pyrodoxine that are colorless so the colored version is the only kind.

 

[Wagner83]

What do you mean without the annoying colorful vitamins? I am not aware of riboflavin or pyrodoxine that are colorless so the colored version is the only kind.

I'm saying did you consider releasing a B vitamins supplement without riboflavin (and maybe b6) so we can use it topically without hiding in the toilets for 24 hours until the skin is clear.

 

[haidut]

I'm saying did you consider releasing a B vitamins supplement without riboflavin (and maybe b6) so we can use it topically without hiding in the toilets for 24 hours until the skin is clear.

What would be the need for a B-complex supplement if it is missing these 2 crucial vitamins? If somebody wants just B1, B3, B12 and biotin they can probably make it themselves but B12 also stains so it leaves just B1, B3 and biotin. I am not interested in such a combiation as nobody so far has requested it and it can be cheaply made at home by dissolving these 3 vitamins in vodka.

 

[Wagner83]

The ratio depends on the activity of 5-AR. So, having decent activity should result in enough T getting diverted into the DHT->androstanedi(one)(ol)->androsterone pathways to give a ratio of higher than. I guess another way to look at this is that the androsterone/etiocholanolone ratio is a biomarker of 5-AR activity. So, rather than suppress etiocholanolone I would work on optimizing 5-AR activity but only if the ratio is less than 1 to start with. Don't know if there is magnitude relationship - i.e. the higher the ratio the more heterosexual a person is.

If this ratio is really the main marker of sexual preferences , then energin seemed to increase it in the favor of women. Other things I noticed was a possible slight reduction in libido and a total disinterest for porn (it has happened to me in the past though). Too bad the thiamine seems to prevent me from using it , sinus problems can be really annoying (started getting problems behind the eyes as a result, couldn't use my brain etc..). The first few days were ok then either thiamine got the better of me or my body got used to the product. Someone suggested there were amphetamines in it while an other person said they used various combination of B vitamins and never got such effects. Do you have a CoA you can share?
An other thing, energin seemed toimprove my mood , I did not get much energy from it, even when I applied it topically.
As for the pretty bad nightmares and waking up at night I reported, it sounds like someone had troubles with disturbed sleep too Tocovit And Energin (haidut's Supplements) .

 

[haidut]

If this ratio is really the main marker of sexual preferences , then energin seemed to increase it in the favor of women. Other things I noticed was a possible slight reduction in libido and a total disinterest for porn (it has happened to me in the past though). Too bad the thiamine seems to prevent me from using it , sinus problems can be really annoying (started getting problems behind the eyes as a result, couldn't use my brain etc..). The first few days were ok then either thiamine got the better of me or my body got used to the product. Someone suggested there were amphetamines in it while an other person said they used various combination of B vitamins and never got such effects. Do you have a CoA you can share?
An other thing, energin seemed toimprove my mood , I did not get much energy from it, even when I applied it topically.
As for the pretty bad nightmares and waking up at night I reported, it sounds like someone had troubles with disturbed sleep too Tocovit And Energin (haidut's Supplements) .

The nightmares and disturbed sleep are a sign of too much B6. So, I would lower the dose if possible or take earlier in the day.
LOL on the amphetamines. I would be in jail if there was such a thing inside. There are no illicit or undeclared substances in Energin, what you see is what you get. I will send Energin to the lab to analyze as well but I am glad it is working so well people think it has been "juiced" somehow.

 

[Wagner83]

The nightmares and disturbed sleep are a sign of too much B6. So, I would lower the dose if possible or take earlier in the day.
LOL on the amphetamines. I would be in jail if there was such a thing inside. There are no illicit or undeclared substances in Energin, what you see is what you get. I will send Energin to the lab to analyze as well but I am glad it is working so well people think it has been "juiced" somehow.

Well I always took it in the morning, and the sinus issues from thiamine are too obvious (is it spiked with a pharmaceutical sinus blocker ?) .
Also I have been adding drops by applying some pressure on the bottle, as I said if I don't press and just shake the bottle the drops are a lot smaller.

 

[haidut]

Well I always took it in the morning, and the sinus issues from thiamine are too obvious (is it spiked with a pharmaceutical sinus blocker ?) .
Also I have been adding drops by applying some pressure on the bottle, as I said if I don't press and just shake the bottle the drops are a lot smaller.

Why would we put a sinus blocker in our product? There is no sinus blocker nor any other pharma or illicit drug in Energin, or any of our products really.

 

[Wagner83]

It was a joke.

 

[haidut]

It was a joke.

Noted Written text is context-free, so I just wanted to make sure.

 

[theLaw]

I have used this product daily every morning for over 6 months with excellent results. More energy and lower stress response overall.

I will continue to use this in combination with Estroban as my daily multivitamin moving forward.

Would not recommend it directly on skin as it can stain easily, and create quite a mess.

Cheers! :)

 

[haidut]

I have used this product daily every morning for over 6 months with excellent results. More energy and lower stress response overall.

I will continue to use this in combination with Estroban as my daily multivitamin moving forward.

Would not recommend it directly on skin as it can stain easily, and create quite a mess.

Cheers! :)

Thank you, great feedback. Could you please give some feedback on dose and method of administration that worked best (oral, topical)?

 

[theLaw]

Thank you, great feedback. Could you please give some feedback on dose and method of administration that worked best (oral, topical)?

Sure.

Oral worked best for me, as the topical application just makes a mess.

40 drops in the morning each day is a great way to reduce the flow of FFA first thing before you start your day. Never went over 40 drops.

My only suggestion would be to make it more concentrated as 40 drops is just too much work for a single supplement.

Cheers! :)

 

[haidut]

Sure.

Oral worked best for me, as the topical application just makes a mess.

40 drops in the morning each day is a great way to reduce the flow of FFA first thing before you start your day. Never went over 40 drops.

My only suggestion would be to make it more concentrated as 40 drops is just too much work for a single supplement.

Cheers! :)

Thank you, noted.

 

[Mito]

until I see some more solid research on effects of exogenous supplementation of pantothenic acid, folid acid and vitamin B12 I have no plans to include these 3 vitamins.

What do you think about the Nitric Oxide regulating effects of hydroxofcobalamin (B12)? Not convincing enough to add to Energin?

From a Ray Peat newsletter:
“One of the most interesting approaches to inhibiting carbon monoxide production is to use vitamin B12, as hydroxofcobalamin, as an antidote to nitric oxide, preventing the nitric oxide from stimulating the formation of heme oxygenase. Wherever carbon monoxide mediates a biological malfunction, as in acquired immunodeficiency, Alzheimer’s disease, and cancer, vitamin B12 seems to have a place as a detoxicant.” Ray Peat, PhD on Nitric Oxide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

...I proposed a possible answer. Cbl regulates inflammation by regulating nitric oxide (NO), not, as had previously been thought, by simply acting as an NO ‘mop’, or antagonist, but by regulating NO production and its safe deployment [6–8], through the regulation of all three nitric oxide synthases (NOS), constitutive endothelial and neuronal NOS, (eNOS, nNOS) and inducible NOS (iNOS), while simultaneously, in a mutually responsive complementary manner, regulating key antioxidant systems.
Cobalamin in inflammation III — glutathionylcobalamin and methylcobalamin/adenosylcobalamin coenzymes: the sword in the stone? How cobalamin may directly regulate the nitric oxide synthases

Hydroxocobalamin (OH-Cbl), cobinamide (Cbi), and dicyanocobinamide (CN2-Cbi) were potent NOS1, NOS2, and NOS3 inhibitors, while cyanocobalamin had much less activity (Figure 2). In general, the constitutive NOS isoforms NOS1 and NOS3 were inhibited more than was NOS2, but all were inhibited by the agents. Methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin had very little ability to inhibit NOS.INHIBITION OF NITRIC OXIDE SYNTHASE BY COBALAMINS AND COBINAMIDES*

These novel observations on the mechanism behind cobalamin protection in endotoxaemia suggest that we may be looking at the ideal natural, selective and collective regulator of the NOS, and thence of cytokines and other pivotal factors, in immune challenge and sepsis. Biphasic Modulation of NOS Expression, Protein and Nitrite Products by Hydroxocobalamin Underlies Its Protective Effect in Endotoxemic Shock: Downstream Regulation of COX-2, IL-1β, TNF-α, IL-6, and HMGB1 Expression

It is concluded that this is the first prospective, open study indicating that intranasal OHB12, as a NO-scavenger, may have a prophylactic effect in migraine. As a percentage of responders in prophylactic trials of >35–40% is unlikely to be a placebo effect, the results of these investigations warrant a double-blind protocol. SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

 

[haidut]

What do you think about the Nitric Oxide regulating effects of hydroxofcobalamin (B12)? Not convincing enough to add to Energin?

From a Ray Peat newsletter:
“One of the most interesting approaches to inhibiting carbon monoxide production is to use vitamin B12, as hydroxofcobalamin, as an antidote to nitric oxide, preventing the nitric oxide from stimulating the formation of heme oxygenase. Wherever carbon monoxide mediates a biological malfunction, as in acquired immunodeficiency, Alzheimer’s disease, and cancer, vitamin B12 seems to have a place as a detoxicant.” Ray Peat, PhD on Nitric Oxide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

...I proposed a possible answer. Cbl regulates inflammation by regulating nitric oxide (NO), not, as had previously been thought, by simply acting as an NO ‘mop’, or antagonist, but by regulating NO production and its safe deployment [6–8], through the regulation of all three nitric oxide synthases (NOS), constitutive endothelial and neuronal NOS, (eNOS, nNOS) and inducible NOS (iNOS), while simultaneously, in a mutually responsive complementary manner, regulating key antioxidant systems.
Cobalamin in inflammation III — glutathionylcobalamin and methylcobalamin/adenosylcobalamin coenzymes: the sword in the stone? How cobalamin may directly regulate the nitric oxide synthases

Hydroxocobalamin (OH-Cbl), cobinamide (Cbi), and dicyanocobinamide (CN2-Cbi) were potent NOS1, NOS2, and NOS3 inhibitors, while cyanocobalamin had much less activity (Figure 2). In general, the constitutive NOS isoforms NOS1 and NOS3 were inhibited more than was NOS2, but all were inhibited by the agents. Methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin had very little ability to inhibit NOS.INHIBITION OF NITRIC OXIDE SYNTHASE BY COBALAMINS AND COBINAMIDES*

These novel observations on the mechanism behind cobalamin protection in endotoxaemia suggest that we may be looking at the ideal natural, selective and collective regulator of the NOS, and thence of cytokines and other pivotal factors, in immune challenge and sepsis. Biphasic Modulation of NOS Expression, Protein and Nitrite Products by Hydroxocobalamin Underlies Its Protective Effect in Endotoxemic Shock: Downstream Regulation of COX-2, IL-1β, TNF-α, IL-6, and HMGB1 Expression

It is concluded that this is the first prospective, open study indicating that intranasal OHB12, as a NO-scavenger, may have a prophylactic effect in migraine. As a percentage of responders in prophylactic trials of >35–40% is unlikely to be a placebo effect, the results of these investigations warrant a double-blind protocol. SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

Niacinamide is much safer and effective for lowering NO than B12. Also, as I posted in a few other threads, both folic acid and B12 are associated with a few cancers. B12 vitamin blood levels have been creeping steadily in the last decade and Peat has told people over email it is often an indication of SIBO, which is associated with hypothyroidism. Unless there is B12 deficiency I don't think adding more B12 would be beneficial (unlike the other B vitamins).

 

[Mito]

Niacinamide is much safer and effective for lowering NO than B12. Also, as I posted in a few other threads, both folic acid and B12 are associated with a few cancers. B12 vitamin blood levels have been creeping steadily in the last decade and Peat has told people over email it is often an indication of SIBO, which is associated with hypothyroidism. Unless there is B12 deficiency I don't think adding more B12 would be beneficial (unlike the other B vitamins).

So it seems there are some benefits in that B12 does lower Nitric Oxide synthesis (B Vitamins As Antidote To Air Pollution) and it may protect against GI cancer (Vitamins B2 And B12 Protect Against GI Cancer). The only study I found that showed a possible link between B12 and cancer was this one Study: Vitamin B12 Correlated with Higher Cancer Risk. But it's not clear that it was caused by B12 rather the cancer seems to increase B12 levels. The only other one I saw was the Norway study with Folic Acid and B12 supplementation causing an increased risk of lung cancer. But 70% of the study participants were smokers or former smokers. Also the supplement was high dose folic acid and not folate or methyl folate. Seems unlikely B12 contributed, but who knows? Nevertheless I understand your reasons for caution with B12.

 

[haidut]

So it seems there are some benefits in that B12 does lower Nitric Oxide synthesis (B Vitamins As Antidote To Air Pollution) and it may protect against GI cancer (Vitamins B2 And B12 Protect Against GI Cancer). The only study I found that showed a possible link between B12 and cancer was this one Study: Vitamin B12 Correlated with Higher Cancer Risk. But it's not clear that it was caused by B12 rather the cancer seems to increase B12 levels. The only other one I saw was the Norway study with Folic Acid and B12 supplementation causing an increased risk of lung cancer. But 70% of the study participants were smokers or former smokers. Also the supplement was high dose folic acid and not folate or methyl folate. Seems unlikely B12 contributed, but who knows? Nevertheless I understand your reasons for caution with B12.

I also asked Peat about these two vitamins and his reaction was pretty much the same - i.e. something along the lines of "unless there is proven deficiency or pregnancy there is no need to supplement and maybe even harm".

 

[jmojo]

@haidut Are you still looking at doing an activated thiamine (TPP) here? I'd be curious in trying this out.