Endotoxin And Fat Consumption

[lindsay]

Then why try and make your own sourdough and long rise yeast breads? Just eat refined plain ole' white bread.

I thought about doing this, but many of the plain old white breads contain Canola oil Plus, I try to avoid anything non-organic here in the US because of all the GMO's. All the organic breads at WF's give me issues, however. Last time I ate plain old white bread, it was in Germany - like the German equivalent of Wonder Bread. But, I bread is kind of a useless food, IMO. Tasty, but just filler food that makes the stomach feel satisfied.

I do like white rice though - such a shame about the arsenic.

 

[Tarmander]

I've been eating a lot of rice recently. The arsenic issue does kind of stink, but I think the good outweighs it.

 

[Nighteyes]

The arsenic issue does kind of stink, but I think the good outweighs it.

I have been adding dried and or fresh cilantro to my rice to hopefully account somewhat for this. Not sure how much it helps but it tastes nice.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

You know by now I don't like to complect things , and I will separate things like marketing, from incidence of coeliac disease, from potential stress dynamics.

We shouldn't just say, "gluten isn't the problem"; to build effective risk models, we first start by listing ALL the risks, and then addressing them one by one according to probability of causing us harm.

Each individual will have to have such a risk model matrix, and assess "Is this safe to eat?" on a minute by minute basis.

The point I was making is that the concept of “gluten free” is not important in relation to the top killers. Let’s just look at heart disease. Let’s not even look at all of the other problems. Just heart disease, the number one killer. Does a quality, traditional, stoneground, sprouted, organic, artisan baker made, masonry wood-fired oven baked, gluten containing bread contribute to atherosclerosis? No. I don't see how it would. Add olive oil, any oil, deli meat, and even cheese, does it now? Well, yes but it’s not the gluten that injured the endothelial lining of the arteries, it’s the other stuff, it’s the junk. And as you said, it's a vague term in reguards to wheat. When people think "wheat" they think bread, pasta, cookies, cakes, crusty pies, pastries, donuts, muffins, pancakes, waffles, biscuits, noodles, and crackers. All delivery systems for pufa and safa.

As Matt Stone said here:

“This seems like common sense knowing that the billions of lean people living in Africa, Asia, and South America--as well as all of our lean primate cousins--eat a much higher ratio of carbohydrates to fat than in North America, Europe, and Australia where obesity flourishes (and carbohydrates like rice, beans, potatoes, corn, and fruit are displaced by cheeseburgers, ice cream, pizza, cookies, cake, and deep-fried carbohydrates like french fries).”

This is what I’m talking about when I say “junk.” The typical anti-health nut will read that and do the typical roll of the eyes. Yes, you can, and I do, eat those foods on occasion. The point is, why are so many in the west obese and atherosclerogenic? It is because they are eating boiled starch with no fat added to it and fruit as the base of their diet, every day, day after day? No. I know what they are eating. I was obese and hyperglycemic myself. I know what obese people eat.

I know what you mean when you say the" X population" thing but I do think there is some value in certain contexts.

"For the present, the important thing is to avoid the use of the least appropriate food products, while choosing natural foods that have historical, epidemiological, and biochemical justification."-RP

As Terry Shintani , shows here: Weight Loss Lie #1 "It's all in your genes"- Lecture by Dr. Terry Shintani

Contrary to popular opinion, native Hawaiians are not "just big genetically." There are paintings of them by the British from centuries ago and if you're skeptical of paintings, there are real photographs from the 20th century. They were lean, muscular, and there is no evidence of obesity, type 2 diabetes, cancer, heart disease, living on a diet based on taro root, which is a starch. Yes they ate fish, before the ocean was as bad as it is today. But what was missing from the diet? Any kind of oil and dairy fat. In my opinion, it's not about calories, it's about oil and cream (dairy fat). Oil and cream are the biggest contributors to the main problems of heart disease, cancer, obesity, T2D, alzheimer's, and rheumatoid arthritis. I think sulfur containing amino acids, environmental contaminants, atrophy from lack of movement, lack of fiber, lack of phytonutrients, and lack of sunlight on lots of skin are other contributors.

Peat drinks low fat milk and has mentioned the fattening effect of dairy fat. So anything I say here isn't anti-milk, it's anti-milk fat, or the over consumption of milk fat.

I don't think it's a mystery why there is a T2D and obesity epidemic in Polynesia:

Polynesia - The Obesity Epidemic

“Sixty years ago, diabetes was virtually unheard of in the Marshall Islands. People were slim and physically active and lived off the land. Their diet consisted of fish, seafood, and edible plants such as coconut, breadfruit, taro, pandanas, and leafy greens. Breadfruit is a starchy fruit that grows on trees and is generally roasted on an open fire. Nutritionally, it is similar to white potatoes. Pandanas is a huge, extremely fibrous fruit that is chewed and sucked on to extract the carotenoid-rich, juicy orange pulp.”

Now all of the islands produce dairy:

“Fiji is the dominant producer accounting for around 90% of all whole fresh milk produced in the PIC. Fiji per capita dairy production is 85kg per annum which is 5 times that of the nearest rivals New Caledonia and Vanuatu.

Fiji, Vanuatu, and New Caledonia produce processed dairy products. Fiji producers butter, ghee, and cheese. A single vertically integrated dairy farm in Vanuatu producers high quality cream, yoghurt, and cheese products. Similar products are produced in New Caledonia. However production statistics are only available for Fiji (table 4). In 1997 Fiji produced 1,700 tonnes of butter and ghee products, up from 1,227 in 1990 (a 38% increase). This represented only 0.32% of Oceania production.”

See the references here for heart disease and the Inuit. I don't think it's a stretch to take something from that data.

Best video I've seen debunking the Inuit/Esikmo high fat eaters, and mummmies had heart disease pre-

I've been eating a lot of rice recently. The arsenic issue does kind of stink, but I think the good outweighs it.

Everything has arsenic in it. I'll take my chances with rice over seafood. The only seafood I've ever enjoyed was yellowfin tuna. Seafood has always disgusted me. I gagged every time I tried to swallow oysters.

Oysters May Serve As Link In Transmission Of Norovirus

"Since a devastating fish kill blighted the waters along 120 miles of coastline in central Vietnam, hundreds of people are believed to have fallen ill from eating poisoned fish."

 

[Amazoniac]

Andrew Kim Blog: Saturated fats, unsaturated fats, endotoxin, and implications of the Mani study

Saturated Fat & Postprandial Endotoxemia. Caffeine & Max. vs. Submaximal Exercise. Lactoferrin & the Battle Against Visceral Obesity. High Intensity Strength Training, Free Testosterone & the Use of Perceived Recovery Scales - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

One thing that it's worth mentioning is that they used a colossal dose of 50ml of oil to induce that effect. What would have happened if they used normal amounts?
I understand that the purpose is to compare, but would the proportion be the same if they diminished the doses?

 

[Tarmander]

Everything has arsenic in it. I'll take my chances with rice over seafood. The only seafood I've ever enjoyed was yellowfin tuna. Seafood has always disgusted me. I gagged every time I tried to swallow oysters.

I'm not sure the choice is rice vs seafood. It's more like rice vs potatoes (potatoes have higher iron) or rice vs wheat. I think the concern is that because of industrial processes, there is more arsenic in rice these days then has ever been there. This might be correct, but organic arsenic is just not as big of a deal as non organic...moral of the story is pick your poison I guess.

 

[tyw]

@Westside PUFAs we almost entirely agree

One question is: Is it ever possible to divorce "gluten" from all the "junk" components in real-world food items?

This is where we probably disagree philosophically on how to treat gluten. I am biased to err on the side of caution.

Now, we will agree on some of the much-hyped mechanical effects. Example, as Chris Masterjohn points out here, even acclaimed Gluten research Dr Fassano found LESS intestinal permeability in ceoliacs under gluten stress compared to non-ceoliacs -- The Daily Lipid: Gluten Sensitivity -- Promises And Problems

The idea that "gluten increases" intestinal permeability is dubious, and we cannot make appropriate claims. On this particular point, I will just say, "we don't know, but obviously there is a defect somewhere in coeliacs that causes that reduced intestinal permeability".

ie: There is some fundamental defect to begin with, and gluten only makes it worse. We should blame that defect, not exactly the gluten. We should still advise such people to avoid gluten.​

Now, back to the original statement, gluten containing foods are usually "more risky" food items. I will focus on wheat because that's probably the most common source of gluten. But anything containing gluten counts -- anything from other cereals, to soy sauce.

I think Chris Masterjohn again gave a very fair interpretation of the 'Wheat Belly' book -- The Daily Lipid: Wheat Belly -- The Toll of Hubris on Human Health

Quote:

In our day, we still refine the flour, but bleach it with chlorine, chlorine dioxide, or potassium bromate instead. Rather than trying to reconstruct the nutritional composition of the original flour, we add a small handful of nutrients based on "current science," including synthetic "folic acid," which is otherwise not found in the food supply. We often chemically or enzymatically deamidate it, mimicking the inflammatory process within the intestines of a celiac patient. We then combine it into foods that have been engineered to maximize their addictive qualities so food companies can maximize their profits. Is it any wonder that "wheat products" would cause disease?

.....

But I do agree that the processed junk Dr. Davis calls "wheat" should be purged from the diet, that the development of dwarf wheat has taken its toll on us, and that we should steer clear of the packaged foods and meet Dr. Davis for a pow wow in the produce aisle.​

Fair statements, which mean that most of Wheat we have is a grain that has undergone many modifications that make it more harmful than the original wheat plant. The point regarding De-amidation of the proteins (including gluten) is the most critical IMO.


Another Sidenote: 2 large slices of bread (60g total) will probably have about 1 gram of PUFA. Most cereal grains will contain some unavoidable level of PUFA (this includes almost all grains except rice, which is almost fat free if polished as white rice). Whether or not this becomes a significant PUFA load depends on the quantity consumed.

Another Sidenote: some grains are treated with Bromine. Again, another one of those harmful compounds.

Another Sidenote: my country of Australia also employs these dwarf wheat varieties. It does not however generally apply much selective breeding, processing, or genetic modification to crops like Potatoes and Rice. In this sense, the rice and potatoes here are "more natural" than the wheat.

-----

So it is possible for a quality, traditional, stoneground, sprouted, organic, artisan baker made, masonry wood-fired oven baked, gluten containing bread to contribute to atherosclerosis?

Unless "traditional" means "the original wheat varietals" (eg: Einkorn), then the answer is: "plausibly in more people than we would expect based on historical wheat tolerance".

It is important to note that people are definitely getting more unhealthy. Blame it on whatever you want, be it EMF, Heavy metals, stressful job conditions, etc .... but it is an observed fact that more people are getting sick with diseases of unknown origin, which can only be pinned down (in the Peat view) on a generic inadequacy of bio-energetic resources.

Given this backdrop, should people stake a claim on eating higher risk items like Bread? My philosophy has been "better safe than sorry", and thus to not consume significant chunks of any gluten-containing items. (which are always going to delivere potentially harmful gluten + other potential harmful compounds)


With that said, people should also be able to make better choices regarding something like wheat consumption -- eg: to insist on "Native Wheat Varieties" for their bread.


-----

Sidenote: Like you mention, the Inuit were never a very healthy population to begin with. Yet people like to bring them up as "keto success stories" (when they were likely not ketogenic ), or "Fish Oil success stories" (when they have so many of the diseases that fish oil supposedly prevents).

IMO, the seasonal lack of Light is probably a bigger reason for their issues.

.....

 

[tyw]

Andrew Kim Blog: Saturated fats, unsaturated fats, endotoxin, and implications of the Mani study

Saturated Fat & Postprandial Endotoxemia. Caffeine & Max. vs. Submaximal Exercise. Lactoferrin & the Battle Against Visceral Obesity. High Intensity Strength Training, Free Testosterone & the Use of Perceived Recovery Scales - SuppVersity: Nutrition and Exercise Science for Everyone

One thing that it's worth mentioning is that they used a colossal dose of 50ml of oil to induce that effect. What would have happened if they used normal amounts?
I understand that the purpose is to compare, but would the proportion be the same if they diminished the doses?

50mL of oil is a very reasonable amount 1 tablespoon is 15mL. That's like 3 tablespoons and a little more -- easily what many people on a higher fat template would consume in a single meal.

All of that is consistent with the concept that saturated fat chylomicrons carry endotoxin more effectively than chylomicrons with unsaturated fats. This should be seen as a Good thing if the immune system is working properly, and potentially a bad thing if the immune system is not.

....

 

[Amazoniac]

50mL of oil is a very reasonable amount 1 tablespoon is 15mL. That's like 3 tablespoons and a little more -- easily what many people on a higher fat template would consume in a single meal.

All of that is consistent with the concept that saturated fat chylomicrons carry endotoxin more effectively than chylomicrons with unsaturated fats. This should be seen as a Good thing if the immune system is working properly, and potentially a bad thing if the immune system is not.

....

But it's too much free oil for a 500g meal, it would make it appear that it's drowning in fat and bearing the unpalatable. It's a shock to introduce something new using that amount.

Then there's this study:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0271531715000068

"Despite the variety of dietary lipid intakes that can occur in human nutrition, there is virtually no information on the effect of dietary fat amount on the onset and the magnitude of metabolic endotoxemia: clearly there is an effect of high-fat vs low-fat diets but the dose-response relationship is not clear. Only, Amar et al. reported that mice fed a diet with 72% of energy from fat had twice the level of endotoxemia compared to mice fed a diet with 35% of energy from fat."

"We hypothesized that dietary lipid amounts could be directly linked to the extent of the onset of metabolic and intestinal alterations developed in response to the diet. Our results do not support our hypothesis because we show, for the first time to our knowledge, that the onset of metabolic endotoxemia and low-grade inflammation is not necessarily linked to dietary lipid amounts and the magnitude of physiological disorders. Indeed, we observed a kind of bell-shaped effect concerning metabolic endotoxemia and low-grade inflammation whereas other HFD-induced disorders seem to directly depend on dietary lipid amounts. vHFD mice strongly increased body weight, fat mass and plasma and liver TG compared with LFD and mHFD mice. However, they did not develop metabolic endotoxemia nor low-grade inflammation compared with LFD mice contrary to mHFD mice."

"Although mHFD and vHFD mice had the same daily energy intake, vHFD gained more weight due the large increase of their fat mass weight. This phenomenon may be explained, at least in part, by the fact that the lipid proportion was higher in their diet compared with mHFD mice and so, required the massive expansion of their adipose fat pads to store the surplus of ingested lipids." - I just quoted this one to massage West's ego a bit.

"To explain that no endotoxemia nor inflammation were induced after vHFD vs LFD, despite huge differences in fat consumption, we focused our attention on two intestinal parameters that can be involved in preventing or promoting endotoxin absorption, namely intestinal goblet cells and the composition of the gut microbiota. Intestinal goblet cells produce and secrete mucins which are highly glycosylated large glycoproteins [13]. In the small intestine as in the colon, the MUC2 mucin is the major secretory mucin produced and secreted by goblet cells and forms part of the composition of the mucus coat. This latter is the front line host defense against endogenous and exogenous irritants and microbial attachment and invasion [13]."
"A recent study reported that (i) HFD-fed mice had elevated LPS plasma levels and a thinner mucus layer than control mice and (ii) treatment of HFD mice with a specific bacterium related to intestinal mucus, A. muciniphila, protected them against metabolic endotoxemia by restoring the intestinal mucus gel thickness [12]."

"Thus, the increase of plasma concentrations of adiponectin in vHFD mice may explain goblet cell modifications. Secondly, in addition of the effects of adiponectin, the results may be partially explained by impact of leptin on intestinal cells. In support of this idea, a luminal perfusion of leptin in rats was shown to be associated with an increase of intestinal mucin synthesis and secretion [31, 32]."

"Knowing that this pathway is followed by a dairy bioactive peptide to increase goblet cell number and MUC2 production, the important amount of soy protein concentrate in the vHFD could have play a significant role."

"This discrepancy can be explained by the fact that the present diets are not purified diets, compared to HFDs used in most HFD-induced obesity studies. The present HFDs contained complex ingredients. For example, wheat bran was reported to have protective effects against dysbiosis, considering a recent report where wheat arabinoxylans counteracted HFD-induced gut microbiota modifications in mice [1]. Consequently, because gut microbiota modifications are usually associated with the increase of plasma levels of LPS [2, 19], the lack of major microbiota alterations between vHFD and LFD mice could have contributed to the absence of endotoxemia induction."
This could've contributed to the effects from the first study posted here. Again, they introduced something different and didn't wait enough for accustomization, and that might have affected the results.

"Indeed, previous works showed that (i) among saturated fats, milk fat induces lower endotoxemia than palm oil [21], and (ii) omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids can blunt endotoxemic response [38]."

"Practical importance of our findings should not be underrated in the context of dietary guidelines, because it appears that dietary lipid amounts may not be the only triggering factors of observed physiological complications."

--
I should note that I'm not taking sides of anything, really. I'm just trying to make sense of all this.


....

Hypothesize. Elaborate/verify. Disprove :cutepuppy

 

[Amazoniac]

From what I calculated, the equivalent human dose would be a bit more than 60g of pure oil + the meal, which is quite a lot. I used the values for mini pigs; coconut oil density 0.924; 0.89g of oil for every kilo of human weight. If we use an average human weight, we have to ignore burtlancast's brain weight for example, otherwise the values would exceed the capacity of the calculator.
If there's something wrong with those values, let me know..

 

[Derek]

But, I bread is kind of a useless food, IMO. Tasty, but just filler food that makes the stomach feel satisfied.

I don't think bread is a useless food. Taste and satiety are two very important aspects when it comes to health. Filler food that is satisfying, lowers stress hormones.

 

[tyw]

From what I calculated, the equivalent human dose would be a bit more than 60g of pure oil + the meal, which is quite a lot. I used the values for mini pigs; coconut oil density 0.924; 0.89g of oil for every kilo of human weight. If we use an average human weight, we have to ignore burtlancast's brain weight for example, otherwise the values would exceed the capacity of the calculator.
If there's something wrong with those values, let me know..

First sidenote: Adults Pigs usually consume more than Adult humans. At least for domesticated pigs (which are usually > 60kg), we're talking 6,000+ kcal a day. Wild pigs shouldn't be really that much different, and even if we half that amount, we're talking 3,000kcal a day -- on par with that of a human.

Again, the dose is completely realistic for real-world consumption standards. Maybe not for Peat standards, but how many times have you seen people drizzle on 2 tablespoons of oil and then some nuts on a "healthy salad", or eat 2 slices of pecan pie (that's 45g of fat in 250g of food ), or drink a Bulletproof coffee with 2 tablespoons of butter and 1 tablespoon of MCT oil (45g of fat in 500mL of liquid).

I think it should be pretty clear by now that Chylomicrons act in some fashion to very effective bind to endotoxin, and allow for safe disposal of said endotoxin. Review article here -- Protection from Endotoxin – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Even Mani et. al. state -- Nutrition & Metabolism

Additionally, chylomicron associated LPS transport has also been suggested to play a key role in intestinal LPS transport from the intestinal epithelial cell [11, 43, 44]. Importantly, we observed no decrease in intestinal integrity which might enhance paracellular permeability as assessed by transepithelial resistance or FITC-dextran permeability due to treatment or short term raft destabilization (Figure 4B). These data suggest that under healthy intestinal epithelial conditions, endotoxin is most likely transported via lipid raft mediated endocytosis.

Another mechanism through which endotoxin can enter the circulation is through micelles. Since the endotoxin side chains are made up of fatty acids, endotoxins can be incorporated into the micelles and transported into the intestinal epithelial cell [54].

In intestinal epithelial cells, chylomicrons transport the absorbed lipids into various parts of the body. High fat administration has been shown to proportionately increase the endotoxin content of the chylomicron indicating that high fat consumption indeed enhances higher endotoxin transport into the intestinal epithelial cell and incorporation into chylomicron [11, 28].

Furthermore, even though the mechanism is not clear, high intake of fat has been shown to cause internalization of tight junction proteins and increase in the paracellular permeability to macro molecules including endotoxin [30]. Even though, this mode of endotoxin transport cannot be ruled out, we speculate that the rate of incorporation of fatty acids into micelles would not vary due to oil composition. Therefore, we propose that the difference in intestinal endotoxin transport we observed is primarily transcellular transport that involves lipid rafts and receptor mediated endocytosis [42].
​

The bold portions are consistent with what I've been stating.

The underlined part may be part of the explanation for why we see so many different responses to endotoxin. ie: Empirically speaking, people are not getting endotoxin poisoning en masse from eating a ketogenic diet, but some people are seeing "massive gut issues".

I think this has more to do with underlying issues that compromise immune function, and/or cause a genuinely leaky gut, and not necessarily because of the fat. Still, it is likely wise to avoid the high fat consumption (for this reason and many others) until these underlying conditions are healed.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, the fluorescence assay for determining "serum endotoxin levels" does not discriminate between chylomicron-bound and free endotoxin. "High levels of endotoxin bound to chylomicrons" is indistinguishable from "high levels of free endotoxin", but only the latter is directly harmful.

....

 

[thegiantess]

I've been under the opinion for awhile that it's more the yeast than the gluten. But I'm no scientist - just going by the breads I've eaten and tolerated. For awhile during my lower fat stint, I was making this white bread that someone gave me the recipe to. It was suppose to be a "quick" white bread - so it was fed with lots of yeast and rose very quickly. And it made my stomach feel like hell.

For awhile, I tried fermenting and souring my own white flour bread, but I found that the problem with bread is a cumulative effect - same with most starches. The more I eat them daily, it's a build up effect until, WHAM! Endotoxin. Right before I had appendicitis, I was eating loads of starchy carbs - especially white rice and potatoes. At first I felt good, but cumulatively eating the stuff for weeks and before I knew it, I had diarrhea, followed by extreme stomach pain and a 103 F fever for three days and could barely walk. I couldn't look at a potato for a long time after that.

So if I ever say anything negative about starch on here (just saying it here because I know I've mentioned it elsewhere), it's just my own personal experience and I've had trouble with it for many years and can understand those who do. And if you are one of the lucky ones who can tolerate lots of starch, I applaud your amazing tummy and give you many high fives! I wish I could eat loads of bread and rice and all those yummy things! Although, what is rice and bread without butter

That being said, I seem to tolerate simple highly refined white bread very well - the closer to wonder bread the better. Go figure.

@thegiantess - I'm curious, what is your method for souring the dough? I've thought about making some sourdough bread again and giving it another go (albeit, very cautiously), but then my husband decided he wasn't eating bread anymore, so I lost the motivation. Do you eat any other fermented bread products? I know you mentioned previously the B-Vitamin content. I struggle with my B's and am always looking for new options. I had contemplated Marmite, but then realized they just add all these vitamins and I could buy them myself without having to swallow yeast - yuck! I've also found that I adore High Ball Drinks (the organic energy drink). They add B6 and B12 and the combination with caffeine, ginseng and guarana makes me feel great. I've been thinking about adding these things to my coffee and juice.

Anyhow, I'm just going on and on and on now. Thanks for your input!

P.S. I like your profile pic :) Reminds me of those bibs they used to give us when I went to eat lobster as a kid (I grew up in Maine). So necessary when prying apart seafood and smattering it in butter!



This is how I feel about cheese and wine. I may carry a slight layer of fat around my mid section from my higher fat intake, and I know alcohol is bad for me, but the amount of pure joy I get from eating my gouda cheese with a glass of white wine is priceless.

I follow the long fermented, very wet, mostly whole grain methods of Chad Robertson of Tartine. I keep a starter with white flour and then I do a process that takes about 2 days and involves many rises and a fold and turn method. It results in an amazing crumb... Like blow your mind beautiful. I typically use einkorn, sprouted spelt, khorasan and organic bread flour. So I try to use mostly ancient wheats and then prepare them using ancient methods. I go to great lengths to be able to consume bread I can feel good about and I think many people think t would be easier to just not eat it. But when I became pregnant I realized I was quickly becoming orthorexic with all my diet limitations so I added wheat back and it's been great!

 

[SQu]

I follow the long fermented, very wet, mostly whole grain methods of Chad Robertson of Tartine. I keep a starter with white flour and then I do a process that takes about 2 days and involves many rises and a fold and turn method. It results in an amazing crumb... Like blow your mind beautiful. I typically use einkorn, sprouted spelt, khorasan and organic bread flour. So I try to use mostly ancient wheats and then prepare them using ancient methods. I go to great lengths to be able to consume bread I can feel good about

Wow, sounds incredible, please tell us more!

 

[thegiantess]

Wow, sounds incredible, please tell us more!

Here is one of his simpler methods wherein you can use pretty much any whole grain to white mixture. It's a good starting place. Once you make this a few times you can move on to using ancient forms of wheat like einkorn which are notoriously hard to work with bc they're lower in gluten and therefore require the dough to be much more wet.

Tartine’s Country Bread Recipe

 

[ecstatichamster]

I have made bread for ages, and used everything from whole wheat to white flour, to grains I grind in my own grinder. I've realized recently that I'm fine with white flour but not with whole wheat flour. I also found that when we ground our own grains for bread, the resulting bread was VERY VERY fattening for everyone who ate it.

And this is using sourdough methods with long fermentations, by the way, so it is really the grains that were the problem.

I'm also finding that eating low fat, a bit of chocolate or full fat cheese, results in my feeling fine, while NO fat makes me feel great for two days, then horrible after that. I am now from this thread suspecting endotoxins as the reason so I'm going to just pursue very low fat and see how things go. And never whole wheat for me.

 

[redred]

I follow the long fermented, very wet, mostly whole grain methods of Chad Robertson of Tartine. I keep a starter with white flour and then I do a process that takes about 2 days and involves many rises and a fold and turn method. It results in an amazing crumb... Like blow your mind beautiful. I typically use einkorn, sprouted spelt, khorasan and organic bread flour. So I try to use mostly ancient wheats and then prepare them using ancient methods. I go to great lengths to be able to consume bread I can feel good about and I think many people think t would be easier to just not eat it. But when I became pregnant I realized I was quickly becoming orthorexic with all my diet limitations so I added wheat back and it's been great!

I would totally buy your bread

 

[SQu]

Thank you! Wow. You do this all the time?

 

[blob69]

Is Peat's assertion to eat starches with saturated fats completely off base then?

 

[blob69]

Another question from a budding experimenter: How long does it take with you guys to notice improvement in health after decreasing endotoxin-producing foods in your diet?